Clover Plot in northeast Arkansas

[Kragrifle]

Getting ready to plant clover plots in northeast Arkansas. How much Clethodin mixed with how much water do I need for about three acres? Also, my Clethodin is 3-4 years old. Should I buy new?

 

[Mennoniteman]

Getting ready to plant clover plots in northeast Arkansas. How much Clethodin mixed with how much water do I need for about three acres? Also, my Clethodin is 3-4 years old. Should I buy new?

I usually use between 10-16 oz per acre. Look in the jug, cleth is a clear, amber colored liquid, if it's going bad it's going to look separated. Was it stored in a cool dry place out of direct sunlight? Good storage practices will extend the life of it drastically.

There's many variables, but to try to help you get you started, here's what I'd be doing, my sprayers average around 25 gallons of water to an acre, so, 75 gallons of water and 40 oz of clethodim, 144 oz of ammonium sulfate, and 48 oz of crop oil. Put the AMS in the water before the clethodim. Spray weeds when they are 2-3" tall. If your weeds are taller, mow first before spraying.

 

[Kragrifle]

I still have quite a bit of green grass about 2-3 inches tall which seems to be something from the fall planting. Should I disc then scatter plant the clover/chicory and spray later as the grass starts coming up? Or should I spray first wait a week then disc and plant? I only have about 3 - 4 acres,

 

[Native Hunter]

I still have quite a bit of green grass about 2-3 inches tall which seems to be something from the fall planting. Should I disc then scatter plant the clover/chicory and spray later as the grass starts coming up? Or should I spray first wait a week then disc and plant? I only have about 3 - 4 acres,

My opinion - if you are going to disk, I would wait and spray later. The reason is that disking will stir up the seed bank and cause more grass seed to germinate. Good luck.

 

[Mennoniteman]

What species did you have in the fall planting? I'd suspect what you think is grasses is actually a small grain like wheat or rye, which is beneficial, and doesn't need killed. Either way, I agree with native, disc, plant, then spray when the grass is 3 inches tall.

 

[Mennoniteman]

Or, disc, plant, including 300-400 lbs of oats for a nurse crop, wait until June, then mow the oats and spray clethodim 1 week later.

 

[yoderjac]

In my opinion, I would not plant your field this spring! Perennial clover take time to put down a root system before you get much top growth. With spring planted clover, even with a nurse crop, summer weed seed and cool season grasses have time to start growing and compete with the clover. You will spend more time and money fighting weeds in over the life of a spring planted clover field.

I would suggest using this spring and summer to prepare for your perennial clover field and plan to plant it in the fall with a winter rye nurse crop. My thought is to wait until you soil temperature hits at least 70 degrees or more. Then do a light disking. Wait about 2 weeks for weeds and grasses to begin growing and then apply a broad spectrum herbicide like gly. When applying any herbicide to acreage (vs spot spraying) you don't want to use an oz/gal of water. Herbicides should be applied in terms of how much herbicide per acre regardless of the amount of water. You need enough water to get an even distribution, but almost all sprayers will give you more than enough water. You need to calibrate your sprayer. There are a number of ways to do this. You can look up the 128th acre method that I like to use. You can also simply fill your sprayer with water and then go spray 1 acre to see how much fluid your sprayer is putting out per acre. So, with gly as an example, the typical total burn down is 2 quarts per acre. That means you want to add the amount of water that was put out by your sprayer to cover one acre plus 2 quarts of gly. If you are spraying multiple acres, simply add another 1 acre's worth of water with 2 quarts more of gly for each acre. The same will apply the cleth or other herbicides. Just look at the label and it will tell you how many ounces or quarts per acre for your application.

After spraying the field, I would surface broadcast Buckwheat and cultipack it. Buckwheat is an annual that provides about 60-90 days of food for deer. Turkey love the seeds and you can let it stand until you are ready to plant clover in the fall. Deer use buckwheat but generally don't abuse it. It comes up quickly and competes well with summer weeds.

Look at your plot when it comes time to plant in the fall. The buckwheat may have been enough to smother most weeds. If it still looks like weeds or grasses are an issue you can spray before planting your clover/chicory in the fall.

Do not disk before planting in the fall. This just brings more weed seeds up to the germination layer. Instead, after spraying with gly again (if needed) surface broadcast your clover and chicory with 80-100 lbs of Winter Rye as a nurse crop. You will not get much germination of clover in the fall. The winter rye will be the attractant for fall hunting. The following spring, wait until the winter rye hits 12-18 inches an mow it back to about 6". The winter rye will take up space weeds and cool season grasses would otherwise use and it has a chemical effect on suppressing the germination of some weed seeds. Each time the winter rye hits 12-18 inches mow it back to 6". This will keep the WR alive and fighting weeds, but release the clover to the sun. By the end of spring, the clover and chicory will have overtaken the field with few if any weeds.

You likely won't need to use cleth. One thought on cleth. It is recommended that you use a surfactant with Clethodim. Often crop oil is used. Crop oil will hurt and can even kill the Chicory in your plot. If you do use cleth, I'd suggest an non-ionic surfactant. Most likely, if you use the fall planted method I described, you won't need cleth for several years.

Now after saying all that, I have become quite weed tolerant over time. I still follow the fall planting method described to start with a clean plot, but after that first spring, I stop mowing clover. I typically let it go over the summer. Many of the warm season weeds are great deer food. If you don't get down on your hands and knees, you wouldn't think there was clover in my plots during the summer. I wait until fall, just before our archery season begins and mow that one time. This is when the cooler nights and rains favor clover. It is amazing how it bounces back and takes over the field again. Of course each year, the clover is fixing more and more N into the soil attracting grasses and weeds. Each year the plot gets a little weedier, but I get over 10 years out of a durana clover field.

Best of luck, whatever direction you go.

 

[Mennoniteman]

In my opinion, I would not plant your field this spring! Perennial clover take time to put down a root system before you get much top growth. With spring planted clover, even with a nurse crop, summer weed seed and cool season grasses have time to start growing and compete with the clover. You will spend more time and money fighting weeds in over the life of a spring planted clover field.

I would suggest using this spring and summer to prepare for your perennial clover field and plan to plant it in the fall with a winter rye nurse crop. My thought is to wait until you soil temperature hits at least 70 degrees or more. Then do a light disking. Wait about 2 weeks for weeds and grasses to begin growing and then apply a broad spectrum herbicide like gly. When applying any herbicide to acreage (vs spot spraying) you don't want to use an oz/gal of water. Herbicides should be applied in terms of how much herbicide per acre regardless of the amount of water. You need enough water to get an even distribution, but almost all sprayers will give you more than enough water. You need to calibrate your sprayer. There are a number of ways to do this. You can look up the 128th acre method that I like to use. You can also simply fill your sprayer with water and then go spray 1 acre to see how much fluid your sprayer is putting out per acre. So, with gly as an example, the typical total burn down is 2 quarts per acre. That means you want to add the amount of water that was put out by your sprayer to cover one acre plus 2 quarts of gly. If you are spraying multiple acres, simply add another 1 acre's worth of water with 2 quarts more of gly for each acre. The same will apply the cleth or other herbicides. Just look at the label and it will tell you how many ounces or quarts per acre for your application.

After spraying the field, I would surface broadcast Buckwheat and cultipack it. Buckwheat is an annual that provides about 60-90 days of food for deer. Turkey love the seeds and you can let it stand until you are ready to plant clover in the fall. Deer use buckwheat but generally don't abuse it. It comes up quickly and competes well with summer weeds.

Look at your plot when it comes time to plant in the fall. The buckwheat may have been enough to smother most weeds. If it still looks like weeds or grasses are an issue you can spray before planting your clover/chicory in the fall.

Do not disk before planting in the fall. This just brings more weed seeds up to the germination layer. Instead, after spraying with gly again (if needed) surface broadcast your clover and chicory with 80-100 lbs of Winter Rye as a nurse crop. You will not get much germination of clover in the fall. The winter rye will be the attractant for fall hunting. The following spring, wait until the winter rye hits 12-18 inches an mow it back to about 6". The winter rye will take up space weeds and cool season grasses would otherwise use and it has a chemical effect on suppressing the germination of some weed seeds. Each time the winter rye hits 12-18 inches mow it back to 6". This will keep the WR alive and fighting weeds, but release the clover to the sun. By the end of spring, the clover and chicory will have overtaken the field with few if any weeds.

You likely won't need to use cleth. One thought on cleth. It is recommended that you use a surfactant with Clethodim. Often crop oil is used. Crop oil will hurt and can even kill the Chicory in your plot. If you do use cleth, I'd suggest an non-ionic surfactant. Most likely, if you use the fall planted method I described, you won't need cleth for several years.

Now after saying all that, I have become quite weed tolerant over time. I still follow the fall planting method described to start with a clean plot, but after that first spring, I stop mowing clover. I typically let it go over the summer. Many of the warm season weeds are great deer food. If you don't get down on your hands and knees, you wouldn't think there was clover in my plots during the summer. I wait until fall, just before our archery season begins and mow that one time. This is when the cooler nights and rains favor clover. It is amazing how it bounces back and takes over the field again. Of course each year, the clover is fixing more and more N into the soil attracting grasses and weeds. Each year the plot gets a little weedier, but I get over 10 years out of a durana clover field.

Best of luck, whatever direction you go.

I start 80% of my clover plots in the spring, I could never tell the difference with weeds vs fall, weeds are like satan, always lurking looking for an opportunity, no matter what time of year. In a dry fall like last year, the clover doesn't start well anyway.

 

[yoderjac]

I start 80% of my clover plots in the spring, I could never tell the difference with weeds vs fall, weeds are like satan, always lurking looking for an opportunity, no matter what time of year. In a dry fall like last year, the clover doesn't start well anyway.

Location is always a factor and clover variety varies. Durana is particularly slow to establish, but most perennial clovers are slow to start. In arid locations, the timing of moisture could be a more critical factor than weeds. I'm not saying you can't establish clover in the spring, just that I find I get a couple extra years out of a clover field before I need to rotate into an N seeking crop if I plant in the fall with a WR nurse crop and mow as needed the 1st spring to release the clover. This approach gives the clover an edge over summer weeds.

 

[Kragrifle]

I appreciate everyone’s advice. In 10 years of mixed food plots with extra clover , no clover ever came up till late spring or summer.
I just finished light discing and planted a mix called Hot Chic. Of course I ran out of seed after only 2 acres so more ordered. Was hoping to get it all in before rain on Friday, but…..
BTW, soil samples looked good only recommended adding nitrogen. Also, Hot Chic contains two clover species and chicory.

 

[yoderjac]

That is the way perennial clover works. It germinates but doesn't put on much top growth if planted in the fall (presuming you have enough rain). Because some has already germinated and it is a cool season plant, it gets a jump on warm season weeds. One of the beautiful thinks about a Winter Rye nurse crop is that it provides the fall attractant when the clover is doing little. About the time the winter rye becomes rank in the spring, the clover is taking over and providing deer food.

I never add N to a clover plot. The chicory will do fine with the N fixed by clover. Soil tests don't test for N. The recommendation says to add N, but they have no idea how much N is in your soil.

While soil tests can be a useful tool for the food plotter, they are aimed at farmers trying to maximize yield. Farmers extract nutrients when they harvest. Food plotters don't have that issue. Much of what deer and wildlife consume is replenished by their droppings. Since I've stopped deep and frequent tillage, I have not used any fertilizer in many years with no negative impact on deer use. Tillage interrupts the natural nutrient cycling introducing O2 into the microbiome and consuming OM. By picking a smart mix of complementary crops and rotations, my costs and time spent are way down and usage has increased if anything.

 

[Kragrifle]

I had considered just broadcasting the seed but still had a considerable amount of grass left over from fall planting and was concerned that clover would have trouble getting good soil contact.

 

[yoderjac]

I had considered just broadcasting the seed but still had a considerable amount of grass left over from fall planting and was concerned that clover would have trouble getting good soil contact.

kill the grasses first. Apply gly at 2 qt/ac before surface broadcasting. If the grasses are forming a turf, light disking may be necessary to get seed soil contact. Less is better when it comes to tillage for the long term health of your soil. Each soil type and locations weather is different. Things need to be adapted to your conditions. Here is an example of adapting to fit a specific situation:

I had used deep and frequent tillage with a 2-bottom plow followed by a tiller for years. It burned up what OM I had in my clay soil. It takes time to rebuild OM and restore soil health. The specific problem I was having was once I stopped tilling, my clay soil would form a crust on top. It was hard like cement for the 1st 1/4". Surface broadcast seed would not grow in it. My solution was to use the tiller I had been using in a different way. I raised the 3-point hitch so the tiller tines were barely touching the top inch of soil. This was enough to disrupt weeds and the crust so I got seed/soil contact. Keep in mind not all seed can be surface broadcast, but clover, chicory, and WR can. After the light tillage, when you looked at the field from a distance, it was still green, not brown like with traditional tillage. I would wait a week or two, spray with gly, and then cultipack.

I had to use this min-till technique for a number of years before I built up enough organic matter. At that point, my clay stopped crusting. This is just and example of figuring out how to adapt a the no-till technique for my situation. If your grasses are turf type forming a barrier to seed, it probably needs some disruption. If you have a disk, set it so the disks are not angled much. Remove any extra weight you might add to the disk (depending on your disk). It may take some trial and error, but you will find a setting that disrupts the grass enough. You still need to kill it with glyphosate. Most grasses are very susceptible to gly. When you disrupt the grass it will want to send up new shoots. New growth is very susceptible to gly. Gly will also kill any broadleaf weeds. Gly is not soil active, so you don't have to wait before planting.

I now find that a cultipacker is one of my most used implements along with a broadcast spreader. I do have a small no-till drill for drilling large seed like beans and corn, but I rarely use it any more.

Keep in mind it take years to improve soil. Don't be dismayed if it takes several years to get good results if you go this route. I have found it saves both time and money and is great for deer.

Best of luck whatever approach you take!

 

[Kragrifle]

I have tried to not use glyphosate as I have concerns about creating resistant species. I have tried 2,4,db for broad leaf but it was ineffective and killed the chicory. My plan is to spray with Clethodin after a few weeks to help control the grasses and mow with mower set high to keep broadleaf plants under control.
I understand your thoughts on soil quality and have seen much improvement in the soil in my food plots. This is the first time I have tried spring planting and decided to give it a try as had no clover showing up despite the fact I added clover to the mixed seed preparation I used. My mistake looks like my trying a local Arkansas seed source rather than the Tecomate brands I have used in the past.

 

[yoderjac]

If you are in ag country where gly has been used for years, there may be gly resistant plants in your area which can become a problem. Weeds can become resistant to any herbicide when used repeatedly. No herbicide kills all of the target plants. The ones that survive are those with more genetic resistance than those killed, so with each generation, there are more plants with resistance. One good strategy is to rotate herbicides so the same herbicide is not used repeatedly. I have been rotating generic liberty and glyphosate.

I find that cleth is not very effective when grasses are well established. 2,4,db will definitely kill chicory as will crop oil as a surfactant with cleth.

I don't worry at all about broadleaf weeds in my clover plots. Because I fall plant with the WR nurse crop and release the clover with timely mowing the first spring, the plots start out very clean. After that first spring, I ignore weeds. I typically plant Durana clover because it is drought resistant and quite persistent. For a farmer, a weed is any plant growing in the field that he did not plant. For a deer manager, many plants that farmers consider weeds, are as good or better quality food for deer than the crops we plant. After that first spring, I only mow once a year right before our archery season begins. The clover rebounds for fall. Each year, the plot has a slightly higher percentage of weeds as the clover fixes N into the soil. After about 10 years, the weeds begin to dominate the field and I typically rotate the field into an N-seeking crop for a season or two before going back to clover. The key for weeds is to have a healthy mix of weeds where a single weed does not dominate. Rotating herbicides helps this. Unless I have a specific noxious weed that is dominating a food plot, I tend to ignore weeds. Deer don't need magazine cover food plots. The mix of clover and weeds also adds some structure to a deer plot which tends to encourage use.

As for chicory, I used to mix it with my clover back when I was planting ladino clover. Chicory was kind of failure insurance for me. If we got a drought during the summer, the ladino would go dormant, but the deep rooted chicory would produce and provide food for deer when the clover didn't. When I switched to Durana, things changed. First, Durana only goes dormant for a much shorter period than ladino when we have a dry summer. In most summers in my area (zone 7a in VA), my Durana never goes dormant. In addition, Durana is slower to establish but more aggressive than ladino. After about 3 years, the Durana was outcompeting the chicory. I eventually stopped adding chicory. It was just a cost, that was not benefitting me much since there was less of a void to fill with Durana.

I have been doing higher volume of food plots so it is more economical for me to mix my own seed. For guys doing a couple acres, the pre-mixed seed may be a better fit, but I think with clover and WR, even with an acre, it makes sense to mix your own. As for the commercial mixes, you really need to look at the seed tag. SuperMegaMonsterBuck mix (or whatever the name is) may have different amounts of different seeds in it from year to year. Also, some of the BOB seed companies realize that some guys will try to plant in the spring. They may have high quality improved varieties of clover in the mix, but it is a small percentage of seed in the mix. They will often add a cheap annual clover or ryegrass. They do this under the guise of being a nurse crop like WR in fall planted clover. In actuality, I think customers who see green stuff they planted growing feel like they had success and buy the seed mix again.

Keep in mind that, much more important than the specific seed varieties, is timely rain. If you can plant before a good rain, you will have much more success in any plot. Timely rain covers a multitude of sins.

I like to plant a 50/50 mix of buckwheat and sunn hemp for summer. They both surface broadcast and cultipack well. They work well together and compete well with weeds. I typically shoot for 30-40 lbs per acre of each. You can plant these later in the spring as they do better when the soil is warm. In my area I shoot for mid June. They are a great prep for a fall plant whether it is a perennial clover field or an annual fall plot. My annual fall plots always include Winter Rye and an annual clover like crimson clover. It doesn't do much in the fall. It acts as a reseeding annual in my area. It comes up about the time WR is getting rank in the spring and provides food until I'm ready for the summer buckwheat/sunn hemp planting.

Keep in mind this is all a learning experience. Whatever you do, you will learn from it over time and find the right fit for your situation.