Archery, will it ever be the same again?

[Mennoniteman]

Why do you think a shorter firearm season would cause out of control deer population? I am 1 state over and we have a 2 week rifle season and we are definitely not anywhere near out of control on our deer population. As a matter of fact I wish they would go back to 1 week but alas I think the wildlife department wants to go to 3 weeks which I oppose vehemently!

My strange observation has been that the irony of longer seasons is that they seem to be inefficacious, that is, they work the opposite of what was intended. For instance, I've hunted in places where they have a very short gun season, so everyone is out the first day, and some of the deer get shot due to people chasing them around to other hunters and the deer kill is huge. Other places with those several months long seasons the first day is almost unrecognizable from any other, and there's not enough hunters out to chase deer to other hunters. Of course, there's so many other factors weighing into this that I probably haven't considered, such as, the short season states often have more public land, and therefore, more transient hunters, who are more apt to show up for the first day only. Or, that the longer seasons were actually the result of not enough of hunters showing up for the first day...

 

[OkieKubota]

My strange observation has been that the irony of longer seasons is that they seem to be inefficacious, that is, they work the opposite of what was intended. For instance, I've hunted in places where they have a very short gun season, so everyone is out the first day, and some of the deer get shot due to people chasing them around to other hunters and the deer kill is huge. Other places with those several months long seasons the first day is almost unrecognizable from any other, and there's not enough hunters out to chase deer to other hunters. Of course, there's so many other factors weighing into this that I probably haven't considered, such as, the short season states often have more public land, and therefore, more transient hunters, who are more apt to show up for the first day only. Or, that the longer seasons were actually the result of not enough of hunters showing up for the first day...

My observation is states with long rifle seasons have something else going on which is mature buck potential goes down. I know several just like myself that will be out every single day till they connect with that deer on camera they have been seeing. The other thing about our proposed extended rifle season is the season is going to start earlier which puts rifles more into the rut. Now our season begins the Saturday before Thanksgiving and runs 16 days so this year it began the 23rd. Our primary rut was completely over which is good. We have bucks getting to older age class. Back that up a week and those old bucks are doing some really dumb stuff in daylight and in the open. A couple years of that and we will see very few mature deer left over and forkies and other youngsters will be what we start seeing as the norm instead of 3.5 and up for a norm.

I like the model Kansas has. No guns in the rut and 1 buck limit. Good hunters still get their buck even if they only hunt with a gun but it sure helps get those bucks to an older age class...

 

[catscratch]

I very much dread the day that KS moves rifle season into the rut. I wish we would go back to doing away with any-season tags, and return tag numbers based on data instead of "meet demand".

 

[Triple C]

My observation is states with long rifle seasons have something else going on which is mature buck potential goes down. I know several just like myself that will be out every single day till they connect with that deer on camera they have been seeing. The other thing about our proposed extended rifle season is the season is going to start earlier which puts rifles more into the rut. Now our season begins the Saturday before Thanksgiving and runs 16 days so this year it began the 23rd. Our primary rut was completely over which is good. We have bucks getting to older age class. Back that up a week and those old bucks are doing some really dumb stuff in daylight and in the open. A couple years of that and we will see very few mature deer left over and forkies and other youngsters will be what we start seeing as the norm instead of 3.5 and up for a norm.

I like the model Kansas has. No guns in the rut and 1 buck limit. Good hunters still get their buck even if they only hunt with a gun but it sure helps get those bucks to an older age class...

Okie - Sounds like you guy currently have the perfect firearms season but also sounds like things could be changing. Kind of selfish on my part but I would personally love something similar in GA. Firearms starts the 3rd Saturday in Oct and runs through the 2nd Saturday of Jan. Hence...we have a smorgasbord of spikes, forkies and basket racked 8s in the 1.5 to 2.5 yr old age class. Plus, a 2 buck limit which just adds to the challenge of allowing deer to reach full maturity. One of the reasons I love following Baker's thread is to see fully mature bucks roaming around. My neighbor is 1400 acre high fence with no artificial breeding or manipulation, other than the fact he can control the age class of the bucks on his place without hunters lining up on his property line for almost 3 full months of rifle season, occurring at the peak of the chase and rut phase.

The pics of bucks you post on your property is in part, the result of a very short firearms season which allows for more mature bucks. But I digress. We still get a few to chase each year but would personally enjoy seeing more 4.5 and older bucks roaming around which ain't gonna happen with a 3 month firearms season.

 

[lakngolf]

Ha, I bit my tongue a couple of times too.
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Unfortunately, I did not "bite my tongue" and let that thread get the best of me. I apologize for that and appreciate Cutman taking action. Perhaps he should censor me for awhile

 

[SwampCat]

Why do you think a shorter firearm season would cause out of control deer population? I am 1 state over and we have a 2 week rifle season and we are definitely not anywhere near out of control on our deer population. As a matter of fact I wish they would go back to 1 week but alas I think the wildlife department wants to go to 3 weeks which I oppose vehemently!

I live in south AR - the south Arkansas piney woods - commercial pine timberland. Rolling coastal plain covered with planted pine in various states of succession from open bare dirt clearcuts to 8 year old plantations you cant crawl through. I have seen this area back in the 1990’s when you would commonly see thirty or forty deer on a morning hunt. The season length for both bucks and does was expanded, as was the annual bag limit increased to six deer - two of which may be bucks. The deer population has decreased across most of the area. The hilly and mountainous hardwood regions of AR, along with the east AR farmland - can not support those season lengths and bag limits. I would say the only area in OK that even comes close in comparison would be the very SE corner along the AR line away from the mountains.

 

[Mennoniteman]

My observation is states with long rifle seasons have something else going on which is mature buck potential goes down. I know several just like myself that will be out every single day till they connect with that deer on camera they have been seeing. The other thing about our proposed extended rifle season is the season is going to start earlier which puts rifles more into the rut. Now our season begins the Saturday before Thanksgiving and runs 16 days so this year it began the 23rd. Our primary rut was completely over which is good. We have bucks getting to older age class. Back that up a week and those old bucks are doing some really dumb stuff in daylight and in the open. A couple years of that and we will see very few mature deer left over and forkies and other youngsters will be what we start seeing as the norm instead of 3.5 and up for a norm.

I like the model Kansas has. No guns in the rut and 1 buck limit. Good hunters still get their buck even if they only hunt with a gun but it sure helps get those bucks to an older age class...

Rifle season open during the rut is definitely going to be a huge impact in any state, and I personally think that it's not a good idea.

To me, in a perfect world, that's what archery season is for, the opportunity to be out there when the big deer are moving, but being limited to shooting a single shot of several dozen yards at broadside standing deer only (or whatever limit each archer sets for himself), not having the ability to knock every one down out to 500 yards. And archery hunting, when you are forced to get closer to the deer, tends to often minimize daytime rut activity if the hunters aren't very careful with spooking deer, giving those bigger bucks a better chance of survival.

 

[catscratch]

Rifle season open during the rut is definitely going to be a huge impact in any state, and I personally think that it's not a good idea.

To me, in a perfect world, that's what archery season is for, the opportunity to be out there when the big deer are moving, but being limited to shooting a single shot of several dozen yards at broadside standing deer only (or whatever limit each archer sets for himself), not having the ability to knock every one down out to 500 yards. And archery hunting, when you are forced to get closer to the deer, tends to often minimize daytime rut activity if the hunters aren't very careful with spooking deer, giving those bigger bucks a better chance of survival.

Add in the difficulty of shooting a rutting buck (with archery equipment) is much more difficult that a feeding or calmly traveling buck. I know tons of stories about the hunting having the buck of a lifetime come through chasing a doe and never getting a shot. Rifle minimizes that.

Case in point. I saw this buck several times and could have shot him with my bow, but on this particular outing he was within range for 5 minutes but offered zero shots due to only being in the opening at a full run.
November 15, 2019 - YouTube

 

[DRandall90]

Add in the difficulty of shooting a rutting buck (with archery equipment) is much more difficult that a feeding or calmly traveling buck. I know tons of stories about the hunting having the buck of a lifetime come through chasing a doe and never getting a shot. Rifle minimizes that.

Case in point. I saw this buck several times and could have shot him with my bow, but on this particular outing he was within range for 5 minutes but offered zero shots due to only being in the opening at a full run.
November 15, 2019 - YouTube

Minnesota Rifle season is right during the rut. It's hard to say what killed our age structure about 8 years ago but most signs point to generous bag limits followed by a brutal winter. It only takes one year like that to wreak havoc on our populations. It's gradually improved, but we still have a lot of areas where the mortality rate on 1.5 year old bucks is 90+%. Granted it's not out of the question to see a big bodied 8 pointer at 2.5 that would look good on any wall in a lot of areas of MN. We do have a 1 buck limit which does help matters.

We definitely have areas of the state where we have too many deer and that has caused CWD issues, especially when it bleeds over from Wisconsin.

 

[Deadeye]

In Life you will meet people that truly believe that Their Way is the Only Way. Some will eventually change- some will not.

Growing Up I had a neighbor that was Dead Set against Archery Hunting. He believed it was unfair to Gun Hunters that they guys that hunted with a Bow could get the first crack at the Bucks each year. Then Pa had a 4 week Archery, but they added 2 additional weeks to allow hunting during the Rut, and only 2 weeks for gun hunting.

He kept that belief until Pa adopted a new ruling that said anyone over 65 could hunt during Archery with a Crossbow. He bought one and started using it. He loved it. All he could talk about was how nice it was to be out when the weather was warmer and the deer moved better.

I don't know if he ever shot a Buck with his Crossbow or not. He has long since passed and now anyone can use a Crossbow during Archery, but I know that new Law gave him an enjoyment that he never felt before for the last several years of his Life.

 

[dogghr]

Unfortunately, I did not "bite my tongue" and let that thread get the best of me. I apologize for that and appreciate Cutman taking action. Perhaps he should censor me for awhile

I walked away halfway thru but that sob started trash talking my buddies on here, then I was back. Ain't going to stand for that, always have my friends backs even if they are mostly internet acquaintices. But I did self censor some of my original comments. Don't F with the mountain man when things are derogatory.

 

[DRandall90]

In Life you will meet people that truly believe that Their Way is the Only Way. Some will eventually change- some will not.

Growing Up I had a neighbor that was Dead Set against Archery Hunting. He believed it was unfair to Gun Hunters that they guys that hunted with a Bow could get the first crack at the Bucks each year. Then Pa had a 4 week Archery, but they added 2 additional weeks to allow hunting during the Rut, and only 2 weeks for gun hunting.

He kept that belief until Pa adopted a new ruling that said anyone over 65 could hunt during Archery with a Crossbow. He bought one and started using it. He loved it. All he could talk about was how nice it was to be out when the weather was warmer and the deer moved better.

I don't know if he ever shot a Buck with his Crossbow or not. He has long since passed and now anyone can use a Crossbow during Archery, but I know that new Law gave him an enjoyment that he never felt before for the last several years of his Life.

As my dad advances in age, I bought him a crossbow so we can continue to hunt together in the cool fall air instead of the (sometimes) sub zero temps of rifle season. He never shot a bow of any kind growing up, and this was his 64th year deer hunting. He told me it was something he wanted to do before he died, and so I can't wait to get out with him in the coming years to try and bag him a buck with the crossbow.

 

[Drycreek]

On the subject of gun seasons vs mature bucks. One property I hunt by invitation is an MLDP property, Managed Lands Deer Permits, which is a fancy way to say that you must do certain things to manage the deer in order to receive certain concessions from the state. In other words, supplemental feeding, (food plots, protein feeders), weigh deer, measure buck antlers, turn in jawbones, keep paper work, etc. In turn, we may start hunting with any weapon the first day of bow season (for the entire state) and continue with any weapon until the last day of February. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that’s five months of any weapon. Let that sink in ! Five months of any weapon.

Now, granted, most folks on this program are management minded but on this particular property. I’ve witnessed many 3.5 year old bucks killed simply because folks can’t judge age within 2 years on the hoof. We have 2,500 acres of 16,000 to hunt. I can’t say what happens on the other parcels but I suspect that they police their management better than we do. The reason for this is that most of the guys that hunt our 2,500 are not paying. The guy that pays the freight is generous to a fault and just lets us hunt. One works for him, the others are relatives of the worker and I’m a good friend, (for 30 years or more) of the guy that leases the place. I do repair roads, mow roads, trails and shooting lanes each year, as well as furnish my own stands and plant my plots.

The other parcels leased out to various “clubs” cost serious money to hunt. I know at least one that charges $5,000 a member. I don’t know the details, whether that includes stands, feeders, corn, protein, etc. but even if it does it excludes guys on a budget. I’m easily capable of paying that, but I wouldn’t because if I had that kind of money tied up in it I wouldn’t hunt anywhere else, and I enjoy hunting at home and on my lease too much to confine myself. It’s two hours away from me BTW, so I have to stay down there to hunt.

There are lots of mature bucks on this property, the potential is great, but the potential is not being realized on at least our part because immature bucks are being shot each year. Someone at some time convinced them that 3/4 year old eight points are “culls”. I DO NOT agree but I keep my head down and do my own deal. My thoughts are if you let an eight point get to 5/6 years old he’s gonna be a 140 class deer most of the time, (with good nutrition), maybe better, and what is wrong with a 140s/150s eight point ? Hell, most people in Texas will never kill a buck that big ! Personally, in four years I’ve only pointed my rifle at two bucks, and only once was the safety released. The other never gave me a decent shot. I’ve passed bucks that I would have killed in a heartbeat at home or on my lease. Several of them.

I said all that to say this. It takes a management minded hunter to keep himself policed from pulling the trigger to have a good population of mature deer to choose from. The majority of hunters are not management minded for various reasons. Time and money seem to me to be the biggest factors. Some simply don’t have the time due to work or family obligations. Some simply can’t or won’t spend the money necessary to hunt often enough to wait on a mature buck or hunt where they live. The fact is, if mature bucks don’t live where you hunt, you ain’t likely to kill one. Our 13” rule has certainly helped us to get to a better place in East Texas, but more is needed IMO. Our archery season starts the Saturday closest to October 1 and general season the first Saturday in November. You can then hunt with any weapon until the 1st Sunday in January. We then have a muzzleloader season that runs a couple weeks. We can take one buck over 13” inside, one spike , and two does (at specific times according to county) all seasons combined. So our bag limits make sense except for the spikes IMO. General season usually takes in the tail end of the rut in East Texas, but other regions with the same opening days may rut earlier or later. It’s complicated to manage a state as big and diversified as Texas and I guess the state does a generally good job but you can’t be all things to all people.

Despite the rather generous firearms season, and the long season in general, our deer herd is still growing, according to TPWD, and we have more mature bucks, at least in some areas. I’ve lived in East Texas all my life, hunted Central Texas many years, and we definitely are growing bigger bucks than in years past. I attribute that to folks wanting to take bucks with bigger antlers more than anything else. The “quality deer” movement has definitely helped in this regard IMO. I’m kinda on the fence on this, because I’m basically old school, and a deer is, to me, fun to hunt first, good to eat second, and nice on the wall third

Now, if they will just stop killing spikes.........

 

[Deadeye]

Well I'm going to throw this out there, may not fit the bill but it's where my thoughts are at.

There has been several comments made here about Not Having Firearms Season During the Rut in order to Not Allow Mature Bucks to be shot by Firearms Hunters, as it is to easy. That the Rut should be saved for Hunting Archery for the chance at a Big Mature Buck.

Why? What gives You, Me, US the right to decide that the Guy/Gal/Kid that chooses to hunt with a Rifle Only doesn't deserve the Chance to Hunt During the Rut?

At one time South Carolina had a Use Whatever Weapon you want to Hunt with Season. I don't know if that still is true or not.

But I would FULLY SUPPORT that instead of breaking our Seasons into Archery/Muzzleloader/ Firearm that it was just Hunting Season and you could use whatever weapon of Choice you want to use. Set a Begin and End Date. Set a deer Limit. Let the Hunter Decide how he wants to fill it.

 

[DRandall90]

Well I'm going to throw this out there, may not fit the bill but it's where my thoughts are at.

There has been several comments made here about Not Having Firearms Season During the Rut in order to Not Allow Mature Bucks to be shot by Firearms Hunters, as it is to easy. That the Rut should be saved for Hunting Archery for the chance at a Big Mature Buck.

Why? What gives You, Me, US the right to decide that the Guy/Gal/Kid that chooses to hunt with a Rifle Only doesn't deserve the Chance to Hunt During the Rut?

At one time South Carolina had a Use Whatever Weapon you want to Hunt with Season. I don't know if that still is true or not.

But I would FULLY SUPPORT that instead of breaking our Seasons into Archery/Muzzleloader/ Firearm that it was just Hunting Season and you could use whatever weapon of Choice you want to use. Set a Begin and End Date. Set a deer Limit. Let the Hunter Decide how he wants to fill it.

It's a fair point and I don't think that having the rifle season in MN in the rut is actually the reason we have population dips. It's usually mismanaged bag limits (our new DNR head deer manager though seems to be a great choice going forward), extremely harsh winter or, depending on who you talk to, predators (wolf populations in MN are at about 2600 wolves last I checked, with a recovery goal population of 1800). That being said, you don't hear people complaining about black bear populations and we have crazy high bear populations, which the wisconsin study has shown is more detrimental to fawn recruitment than wolves or coyotes.

For the record, I'm all for predators on the landscape, as long as they are managed by the state in the same way prey species are managed. Also, I wish we could bring back the elk, moose and caribou to our area (hopefully the elk are en route).

 

[catscratch]

From my perspective in the grassy plains of KS (where deer rut in the wide open all the time), that firearms during this time would decimate the older age class. Combine that with the "meet demand" tag management currently being used and the trophy class deer would dissapear very quickly.

For me and this scenario it isn't so much keeping big bucks for "my season" as much as sound management to keep any big bucks at all. I think every part of the country is different. Rifle hunting in big woods or mountains may have a very different outcome than rifle hunting treeless pasture.

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[Drycreek]

Deer populations definitely need to be managed according to circumstances and not toward pleasing the rich, or the insurance companies, or any other entities besides the hunting public. It’s our money that pays for the law enforcement and management of the animals and it’s our interest that should come first. Now.....good luck getting us all on the same page !

 

[Mennoniteman]

As my dad advances in age, I bought him a crossbow so we can continue to hunt together in the cool fall air instead of the (sometimes) sub zero temps of rifle season. He never shot a bow of any kind growing up, and this was his 64th year deer hunting. He told me it was something he wanted to do before he died, and so I can't wait to get out with him in the coming years to try and bag him a buck with the crossbow.

This is a special story to me, as I remember my own dad. Good luck with that archery hunt.

 

[weekender21]

Well I'm going to throw this out there, may not fit the bill but it's where my thoughts are at.

There has been several comments made here about Not Having Firearms Season During the Rut in order to Not Allow Mature Bucks to be shot by Firearms Hunters, as it is to easy. That the Rut should be saved for Hunting Archery for the chance at a Big Mature Buck.

Why? What gives You, Me, US the right to decide that the Guy/Gal/Kid that chooses to hunt with a Rifle Only doesn't deserve the Chance to Hunt During the Rut?

At one time South Carolina had a Use Whatever Weapon you want to Hunt with Season. I don't know if that still is true or not.

But I would FULLY SUPPORT that instead of breaking our Seasons into Archery/Muzzleloader/ Firearm that it was just Hunting Season and you could use whatever weapon of Choice you want to use. Set a Begin and End Date. Set a deer Limit. Let the Hunter Decide how he wants to fill it.

.

SC is a good example because their “management” is at the far end of the spectrum and very different from northern, midwestern and even most southern states.

Long rifle seasons and extremely liberal bag limits on bucks (and does for that matter) has ensured a low age structure. My brother in law killed a 168” buck there in the 90’s and his brother killed one not much smaller. The potential is there.

I don’t think rifle season during the rut leaves older bucks vulnerable, I think it leaves all bucks vulnerable. If every two year old in the neighborhood is killed then there are no three year olds the following year and no four year olds the next.

Archery season or no season during the rut would obviously increase the chance a buck advances but bag limits are definitely part of the equation. SC is the perfect storm for a low age class deer herd. Almost forgot, add baiting to the list.


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[Chainsaw]

Some in this area shoot their buck during the last week of the season after the rut on cold blustery evenings when some of the better bucks sometimes make their last mistake. If not for the extra long season those bucks would have made at least to their next battle. Some bucks get taken very early in the season when feeding in open fields in the evenings and of course most get taken during the late days of pre rut days and during the rut. Having the season open for all of those periods make it a huge uphill battle to get bucks past 2 1/2.

With so many types of seasons I'm not so sure that it is right that there are separate seasons. Bow hunters get 2 1/2 weeks, muzzleloaders get one week over lapping with bow hunters and one to themselves while rifle hunters get about seven weeks to themselves. A bow can be used during rifle but it does require buying a rifle tag. I don't know what the rule is on muzzle loaders during rifle.