Regenerative Plotting

[MarkDarvin]

Exciting stuff. New soil science from Dr. Jones. It's been a while since I've seen new info. I haven't even seen the whole thing yet, but I'm about a third of the way through it. This builds upon everything we know up to this point. This is a talk about the infinite number of systems within systems.

She is among my favorite speakers on biological growing. Her, along with Kristine Nichols and Elaine Ingham. If you're running outta stuff to watch and you dig this low input/high output growing, check this out.

 

[RGrizzzz]

Anyone in SE PA interested in sharing shipping costs for a pallet from Green Cover Seed? I only need about half a pallets worth of seed for the season.

 

[MarkDarvin]

An interesting takeaway I had from that video was the variations that can happen in soil test readings, depending on what time of year those tests are taken. I've known for a little while now that it's important to test at the same time each year, but what about the dude that only tests once and then takes off on a path to remediation? It was neat to see it in charts, and that led me to do a little googling.


This is a pH chart she showed from Austrailia. Important to note that their seasons are inverted, so July is their January, and January is their July.



Here's the whole chart showing how other nutrients also fluctuate during the year. She points to an important distinction between nutrients being there, and nutrients being available. The key to all of it is, moisture, warmth, and biological systems to mobilize unavailable nutrients.

 

[MarkDarvin]

I've tested the snot outta my soil for years. I've got a handle on where my pH is. I've had some variance in readings where I tested at 6.0 pH, then put on 3000 lbs/ac of dolomitic pell lime, and tested a year later and it came in at 5.9. Spent a lot of time scratching my head, but did not go back and put more on.

The whole reason I put a good shot of lime on was that I had problems with low pH weeds (field horsetail). There are perfect conditions for it, and I rolled out the red carpet. I killed all of it's competition, high potassium (I caused that), low pH (I inherited that), and soggy soils (inherited and fixed). Despite the reading not moving, the horsetail retreated to a very tolerable level by the following summer. The plot looked great, the horsetail quit, I left it be from there.

 

[MarkDarvin]

Winter time is for learning stuff. I came across a good read on earthworms tonight that I found interesting. This does conflict a little bit with what I've read previously, however, I'm leaning towards this because it seems to be more in depth.

https://worldagriculturesolutions.c...pical 5 to,earthworm castings per square foot!

Some highlights from the reading:

–> Active, adult earthworms (Lumbricus terrestris) eat their body weight in soil and organic matter daily. Sluggish worms, immature worms, and worms of other species may eat only 10% to 30% of their body weight each day. 1,000,000 common earthworms per acre (about 23 worms per square foot of topsoil 12 inches deep) = 1 ton of earthworm castings = worm manure DAILY during the growing season.

–> Do not plow in spring or fall if practical as this kills many worms. Do not plow, cultivate, or spray in early evening, after dark, or early in the morning as this kills many worms. The best time to till, cultivate, or spray is in the afternoon when temperatures are highest and worms have retreated to cooler soil depths.

–> Earthworm populations increase in direct proportion to the amount of organic matter on the soil surface = leaves, twigs, straw, et cetera. More cover = more protection & more food = higher worm populations. Keep the soil mulched or covered with growing plants at all times. 2 inches of mulch double worm populations compared to cornfields where whole stalks are left on soil surface.

–> Earthworms need protein in their diet. Worm populations double on legume fields compared to grass fields. Earthworms especially favor clovers, particularly white clover. Include legumes in field rotations, pastures & hay fields, cover crop mixes, and living mulches.

–> Earthworms do not spread rapidly. A worm colony might spread 3 feet in a year. That’s as fast as earthworms go. To “seed” worms drop 6 nightcrawlers every 30 feet then immediately cover with a generous heap of mulch, compost, or manure = whatever worms are used to eating. It takes at least 10 years for worm colonies spaced 30 feet apart to spread across an acre-sized field. 1 acre = 43,560 square feet = 4,840 square yards ~ 0.404 hectare.

–> Tillage kills earthworms. Loses depend on plow type, tillage depth, and time. Chisel plows are the most destructive, disk plows slightly less so. Old fashioned moldboard plows are the least destructive of all conventional tillage implements. Chisel plows kill 3 times as many earthworms as moldboard plows.

–> Earthworms do not “like” to eat maize leaves and they especially dislike whole corn stalks and cobs.

–> Worms constantly maintain their burrows which often extend 5 to 6 feet into the subsoil. About the diameter of a pencil, worm holes are essential for aeration and drainage of natural soils. Fields with populations of 1 million earthworms per acre typically contain approximately 900 to 1,200 MILES of tunnels. These tubes are lined with “earthworm cement”, a natural glue that keeps tunnels open many years after resident earthworms have died. Plant roots follow earthworm burrows deep into the subsoil where moisture levels are relatively constant. This is why crops grown in biologically managed fields have considerable drought resistance. (Crop roots also follow weed roots into the subsoil, especially weeds with deep taproots. This is why melons grown in weeds make a crop in dry years while clean cultivated vines shrivel and die).

–> Ammonia based nitrogen fertilizers kill earthworms. The worst form is anhydrous ammonia gas. Liquid ammonia fertilizers are far less injurious. Note: Organic fertilizers can also be lethal. Excessive amounts of manure lagoon effluent decimate worm populations. It is good practice to irrigate before applying ammonia or any fertilizer, chemical or organic. (Irrigation prevents plants from absorbing too much fertilizer at once. Over-fed plants attract insect pests).

–> Concentrated chemical fertilizers (especially nitrogen) decrease soil organic matter and earthworm populations. Spread supplementary organic matter on fields where chemical nutrients are applied. Whenever practical use organic fertilizers to encourage earthworm growth.

–> How Earthworm Populations Vary by Soil Type and Land Use
50,000 worms/acre ~ 1 worm/square foot: Moldboard Plowed Continuous Corn; Acid Peat Soils.
80,000 worms/acre ~ 2 worms/square foot: No-Till Continuous Corn with Herbicide.
150,000 worms/acre ~ 3 worms/square foot: Fine Gravel Soils; Coarse Sandy Soils; Medium & Heavy Clay Soils.
170,000 worms/acre ~ 4 worms/square foot: Bare Earth Orchards (Conventional Cultivation); Alluvial = Silt Soils; Light Clay Soils; Heavy Loam Soils.
225,000 worms/acre ~ 5 worms/square foot: Medium Loam Soils; Fine Sandy Soils.
250,000 worms/acre ~ 6 worms/square foot: Chisel Plowed Corn & Soybeans Rotation; Chisel Plowed Continuous Soybeans; Light Loam Soils.
500,000 worms/acre ~ 12 worms/square foot: No-Till with Herbicides.
650,000 worms/acre ~ 15 worms/square foot: Moldboard Plowed Continuous Soybeans.
1,000,000 worms/acre ~ 23 worms/square foot: Biological No-Till (Rye Mulch-In-Place); Orchards with Mixed Grass & Legume Sod; Undisturbed Tall Grass Prairies & Hay Fields; Natural Alpine Meadows.
1,300,000 worms/acre ~ 30 worms/square foot: Biological No-Till with Mixed Species Cover Crops; Fields Fallowed 5 Years (Mostly Broad Leaf Weeds).
2 million worms/acre ~ 46 worms/square foot: Continuous Clover Living Mulch; Organic Gardens; Dairy Pastures; Manure Fertilized Fields (22 Tons per Acre Yearly).

–> Reaching the goal of 2 or 3 million earthworms per acre is nearly impossible without some form of “mixed agriculture” = crops and farm animals. Animals provide manure needed to feed large numbers of worms.

–> Over a typical 5 to 6 month growing season, 1 million earthworms per acre will excrete 150 to 180 TONS of worm casts. These are deposited throughout the soil profile from the surface to approximately 6 feet deep.

–> Average Nutrient Concentration in Earthworm Casts:
5x Nitrogen (500% more N than found in parent soil)
7x Phosphorous (700% more P than found in parent soil)
10x Potassium (1,000% more K than found in parent soil)
1.5x Calcium (150% more Ca than found in parent soil)
3x Magnesium (300% more Mg than found in parent soil)

Earthworms are living fertilizer factories. They ingest their weight in soil and organic matter daily then excrete manure containing concentrated plant nutrients. These nutrients are highly available = easily absorbed and will not “burn” plant roots. Earthworm casts are rich sources of essential plant micro-nutrients. These trace elements are often “tied up” = unavailable in parent soils but highly soluble in earthworm casts. Plants fertilized with earthworm casts rarely require additional nutrients. This is why earthworm casts have been the standard natural greenhouse fertilizer since the 17th century.

 

[catscratch]

Winter time is for learning stuff. I came across a good read on earthworms tonight that I found interesting. This does conflict a little bit with what I've read previously, however, I'm leaning towards this because it seems to be more in depth.

https://worldagriculturesolutions.c...pical 5 to,earthworm castings per square foot!

Some highlights from the reading:

–> Active, adult earthworms (Lumbricus terrestris) eat their body weight in soil and organic matter daily. Sluggish worms, immature worms, and worms of other species may eat only 10% to 30% of their body weight each day. 1,000,000 common earthworms per acre (about 23 worms per square foot of topsoil 12 inches deep) = 1 ton of earthworm castings = worm manure DAILY during the growing season.

–> Do not plow in spring or fall if practical as this kills many worms. Do not plow, cultivate, or spray in early evening, after dark, or early in the morning as this kills many worms. The best time to till, cultivate, or spray is in the afternoon when temperatures are highest and worms have retreated to cooler soil depths.

–> Earthworm populations increase in direct proportion to the amount of organic matter on the soil surface = leaves, twigs, straw, et cetera. More cover = more protection & more food = higher worm populations. Keep the soil mulched or covered with growing plants at all times. 2 inches of mulch double worm populations compared to cornfields where whole stalks are left on soil surface.

–> Earthworms need protein in their diet. Worm populations double on legume fields compared to grass fields. Earthworms especially favor clovers, particularly white clover. Include legumes in field rotations, pastures & hay fields, cover crop mixes, and living mulches.

–> Earthworms do not spread rapidly. A worm colony might spread 3 feet in a year. That’s as fast as earthworms go. To “seed” worms drop 6 nightcrawlers every 30 feet then immediately cover with a generous heap of mulch, compost, or manure = whatever worms are used to eating. It takes at least 10 years for worm colonies spaced 30 feet apart to spread across an acre-sized field. 1 acre = 43,560 square feet = 4,840 square yards ~ 0.404 hectare.

–> Tillage kills earthworms. Loses depend on plow type, tillage depth, and time. Chisel plows are the most destructive, disk plows slightly less so. Old fashioned moldboard plows are the least destructive of all conventional tillage implements. Chisel plows kill 3 times as many earthworms as moldboard plows.

–> Earthworms do not “like” to eat maize leaves and they especially dislike whole corn stalks and cobs.

–> Worms constantly maintain their burrows which often extend 5 to 6 feet into the subsoil. About the diameter of a pencil, worm holes are essential for aeration and drainage of natural soils. Fields with populations of 1 million earthworms per acre typically contain approximately 900 to 1,200 MILES of tunnels. These tubes are lined with “earthworm cement”, a natural glue that keeps tunnels open many years after resident earthworms have died. Plant roots follow earthworm burrows deep into the subsoil where moisture levels are relatively constant. This is why crops grown in biologically managed fields have considerable drought resistance. (Crop roots also follow weed roots into the subsoil, especially weeds with deep taproots. This is why melons grown in weeds make a crop in dry years while clean cultivated vines shrivel and die).

–> Ammonia based nitrogen fertilizers kill earthworms. The worst form is anhydrous ammonia gas. Liquid ammonia fertilizers are far less injurious. Note: Organic fertilizers can also be lethal. Excessive amounts of manure lagoon effluent decimate worm populations. It is good practice to irrigate before applying ammonia or any fertilizer, chemical or organic. (Irrigation prevents plants from absorbing too much fertilizer at once. Over-fed plants attract insect pests).

–> Concentrated chemical fertilizers (especially nitrogen) decrease soil organic matter and earthworm populations. Spread supplementary organic matter on fields where chemical nutrients are applied. Whenever practical use organic fertilizers to encourage earthworm growth.

–> How Earthworm Populations Vary by Soil Type and Land Use
50,000 worms/acre ~ 1 worm/square foot: Moldboard Plowed Continuous Corn; Acid Peat Soils.
80,000 worms/acre ~ 2 worms/square foot: No-Till Continuous Corn with Herbicide.
150,000 worms/acre ~ 3 worms/square foot: Fine Gravel Soils; Coarse Sandy Soils; Medium & Heavy Clay Soils.
170,000 worms/acre ~ 4 worms/square foot: Bare Earth Orchards (Conventional Cultivation); Alluvial = Silt Soils; Light Clay Soils; Heavy Loam Soils.
225,000 worms/acre ~ 5 worms/square foot: Medium Loam Soils; Fine Sandy Soils.
250,000 worms/acre ~ 6 worms/square foot: Chisel Plowed Corn & Soybeans Rotation; Chisel Plowed Continuous Soybeans; Light Loam Soils.
500,000 worms/acre ~ 12 worms/square foot: No-Till with Herbicides.
650,000 worms/acre ~ 15 worms/square foot: Moldboard Plowed Continuous Soybeans.
1,000,000 worms/acre ~ 23 worms/square foot: Biological No-Till (Rye Mulch-In-Place); Orchards with Mixed Grass & Legume Sod; Undisturbed Tall Grass Prairies & Hay Fields; Natural Alpine Meadows.
1,300,000 worms/acre ~ 30 worms/square foot: Biological No-Till with Mixed Species Cover Crops; Fields Fallowed 5 Years (Mostly Broad Leaf Weeds).
2 million worms/acre ~ 46 worms/square foot: Continuous Clover Living Mulch; Organic Gardens; Dairy Pastures; Manure Fertilized Fields (22 Tons per Acre Yearly).

–> Reaching the goal of 2 or 3 million earthworms per acre is nearly impossible without some form of “mixed agriculture” = crops and farm animals. Animals provide manure needed to feed large numbers of worms.

–> Over a typical 5 to 6 month growing season, 1 million earthworms per acre will excrete 150 to 180 TONS of worm casts. These are deposited throughout the soil profile from the surface to approximately 6 feet deep.

–> Average Nutrient Concentration in Earthworm Casts:
5x Nitrogen (500% more N than found in parent soil)
7x Phosphorous (700% more P than found in parent soil)
10x Potassium (1,000% more K than found in parent soil)
1.5x Calcium (150% more Ca than found in parent soil)
3x Magnesium (300% more Mg than found in parent soil)

Earthworms are living fertilizer factories. They ingest their weight in soil and organic matter daily then excrete manure containing concentrated plant nutrients. These nutrients are highly available = easily absorbed and will not “burn” plant roots. Earthworm casts are rich sources of essential plant micro-nutrients. These trace elements are often “tied up” = unavailable in parent soils but highly soluble in earthworm casts. Plants fertilized with earthworm casts rarely require additional nutrients. This is why earthworm casts have been the standard natural greenhouse fertilizer since the 17th century.

Good read!

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[MarkDarvin]

I thought those numbers above were possibly prone to exaggeration. So I decided to dig deeper to try to find other estimates of the production rates of worm castings in a given situation. Well, I only found them higher and higher. This article above quotes 1-ton per acre in a very healthy and well managed soil. I also found ten tons, and one place even claimed forty. I'm ok with sticking with 1, because that happens to be a great plenty.

The value in figuring this out is huge. Imagine the savings in time and energy if a guy can figure out how to keep the worms happy first and foremost, and then still meet all his needs for plotting and providing forage for the deer. I found a nutrient analysis for worm castings, and it is very interesting. Castings provide a lot of fertility when you're talking dozens to a few hundred tons of this stuff per year per acre on your ground if you're managing pro-worm. The equivalent manure production of a healthy worm base would be like grazing up to 22 pigs per acre, only the worms aren't quite so disruptive.


I've seen prices as high as $1000/ton for worm poop. I find it extremely cool that with some savvy management, we can also claim that we can produce up to $100,000 worth of worm castings per acre per year. That kind of crew is gonna need some barley straw to eat.

 

[catscratch]

I thought those numbers above were possibly prone to exaggeration. So I decided to dig deeper to try to find other estimates of the production rates of worm castings in a given situation. Well, I only found them higher and higher. This article above quotes 1-ton per acre in a very healthy and well managed soil. I also found ten tons, and one place even claimed forty. I'm ok with sticking with 1, because that happens to be a great plenty.

The value in figuring this out is huge. Imagine the savings in time and energy if a guy can figure out how to keep the worms happy first and foremost, and then still meet all his needs for plotting and providing forage for the deer. I found a nutrient analysis for worm castings, and it is very interesting. Castings provide a lot of fertility when you're talking dozens to a few hundred tons of this stuff per year per acre on your ground if you're managing pro-worm. The equivalent manure production of a healthy worm base would be like grazing up to 22 pigs per acre, only the worms aren't quite so disruptive.

View attachment 21134
I've seen prices as high as $1000/ton for worm poop. I find it extremely cool that with some savvy management, we can also claim that we can produce up to $100,000 worth of worm castings per acre per year. That kind of crew is gonna need some barley straw to eat.

Now imagine if you have those 22 pigs per acre (or the occasional 10,000lbs per acre of cattle) grazing through it... how much gut and saliva biology interactions there are, how much vegetation gets converted into manure, how much those worms benefit. It's worth a few moments thought.

 

[pinetag]

Winter time is for learning stuff. I came across a good read on earthworms tonight that I found interesting. This does conflict a little bit with what I've read previously, however, I'm leaning towards this because it seems to be more in depth.

https://worldagriculturesolutions.c...pical 5 to,earthworm castings per square foot!

Some highlights from the reading:

–> Active, adult earthworms (Lumbricus terrestris) eat their body weight in soil and organic matter daily. Sluggish worms, immature worms, and worms of other species may eat only 10% to 30% of their body weight each day. 1,000,000 common earthworms per acre (about 23 worms per square foot of topsoil 12 inches deep) = 1 ton of earthworm castings = worm manure DAILY during the growing season.

–> Do not plow in spring or fall if practical as this kills many worms. Do not plow, cultivate, or spray in early evening, after dark, or early in the morning as this kills many worms. The best time to till, cultivate, or spray is in the afternoon when temperatures are highest and worms have retreated to cooler soil depths.

–> Earthworm populations increase in direct proportion to the amount of organic matter on the soil surface = leaves, twigs, straw, et cetera. More cover = more protection & more food = higher worm populations. Keep the soil mulched or covered with growing plants at all times. 2 inches of mulch double worm populations compared to cornfields where whole stalks are left on soil surface.

–> Earthworms need protein in their diet. Worm populations double on legume fields compared to grass fields. Earthworms especially favor clovers, particularly white clover. Include legumes in field rotations, pastures & hay fields, cover crop mixes, and living mulches.

–> Earthworms do not spread rapidly. A worm colony might spread 3 feet in a year. That’s as fast as earthworms go. To “seed” worms drop 6 nightcrawlers every 30 feet then immediately cover with a generous heap of mulch, compost, or manure = whatever worms are used to eating. It takes at least 10 years for worm colonies spaced 30 feet apart to spread across an acre-sized field. 1 acre = 43,560 square feet = 4,840 square yards ~ 0.404 hectare.

–> Tillage kills earthworms. Loses depend on plow type, tillage depth, and time. Chisel plows are the most destructive, disk plows slightly less so. Old fashioned moldboard plows are the least destructive of all conventional tillage implements. Chisel plows kill 3 times as many earthworms as moldboard plows.

–> Earthworms do not “like” to eat maize leaves and they especially dislike whole corn stalks and cobs.

–> Worms constantly maintain their burrows which often extend 5 to 6 feet into the subsoil. About the diameter of a pencil, worm holes are essential for aeration and drainage of natural soils. Fields with populations of 1 million earthworms per acre typically contain approximately 900 to 1,200 MILES of tunnels. These tubes are lined with “earthworm cement”, a natural glue that keeps tunnels open many years after resident earthworms have died. Plant roots follow earthworm burrows deep into the subsoil where moisture levels are relatively constant. This is why crops grown in biologically managed fields have considerable drought resistance. (Crop roots also follow weed roots into the subsoil, especially weeds with deep taproots. This is why melons grown in weeds make a crop in dry years while clean cultivated vines shrivel and die).

–> Ammonia based nitrogen fertilizers kill earthworms. The worst form is anhydrous ammonia gas. Liquid ammonia fertilizers are far less injurious. Note: Organic fertilizers can also be lethal. Excessive amounts of manure lagoon effluent decimate worm populations. It is good practice to irrigate before applying ammonia or any fertilizer, chemical or organic. (Irrigation prevents plants from absorbing too much fertilizer at once. Over-fed plants attract insect pests).

–> Concentrated chemical fertilizers (especially nitrogen) decrease soil organic matter and earthworm populations. Spread supplementary organic matter on fields where chemical nutrients are applied. Whenever practical use organic fertilizers to encourage earthworm growth.

–> How Earthworm Populations Vary by Soil Type and Land Use
50,000 worms/acre ~ 1 worm/square foot: Moldboard Plowed Continuous Corn; Acid Peat Soils.
80,000 worms/acre ~ 2 worms/square foot: No-Till Continuous Corn with Herbicide.
150,000 worms/acre ~ 3 worms/square foot: Fine Gravel Soils; Coarse Sandy Soils; Medium & Heavy Clay Soils.
170,000 worms/acre ~ 4 worms/square foot: Bare Earth Orchards (Conventional Cultivation); Alluvial = Silt Soils; Light Clay Soils; Heavy Loam Soils.
225,000 worms/acre ~ 5 worms/square foot: Medium Loam Soils; Fine Sandy Soils.
250,000 worms/acre ~ 6 worms/square foot: Chisel Plowed Corn & Soybeans Rotation; Chisel Plowed Continuous Soybeans; Light Loam Soils.
500,000 worms/acre ~ 12 worms/square foot: No-Till with Herbicides.
650,000 worms/acre ~ 15 worms/square foot: Moldboard Plowed Continuous Soybeans.
1,000,000 worms/acre ~ 23 worms/square foot: Biological No-Till (Rye Mulch-In-Place); Orchards with Mixed Grass & Legume Sod; Undisturbed Tall Grass Prairies & Hay Fields; Natural Alpine Meadows.
1,300,000 worms/acre ~ 30 worms/square foot: Biological No-Till with Mixed Species Cover Crops; Fields Fallowed 5 Years (Mostly Broad Leaf Weeds).
2 million worms/acre ~ 46 worms/square foot: Continuous Clover Living Mulch; Organic Gardens; Dairy Pastures; Manure Fertilized Fields (22 Tons per Acre Yearly).

–> Reaching the goal of 2 or 3 million earthworms per acre is nearly impossible without some form of “mixed agriculture” = crops and farm animals. Animals provide manure needed to feed large numbers of worms.

–> Over a typical 5 to 6 month growing season, 1 million earthworms per acre will excrete 150 to 180 TONS of worm casts. These are deposited throughout the soil profile from the surface to approximately 6 feet deep.

–> Average Nutrient Concentration in Earthworm Casts:
5x Nitrogen (500% more N than found in parent soil)
7x Phosphorous (700% more P than found in parent soil)
10x Potassium (1,000% more K than found in parent soil)
1.5x Calcium (150% more Ca than found in parent soil)
3x Magnesium (300% more Mg than found in parent soil)

Earthworms are living fertilizer factories. They ingest their weight in soil and organic matter daily then excrete manure containing concentrated plant nutrients. These nutrients are highly available = easily absorbed and will not “burn” plant roots. Earthworm casts are rich sources of essential plant micro-nutrients. These trace elements are often “tied up” = unavailable in parent soils but highly soluble in earthworm casts. Plants fertilized with earthworm casts rarely require additional nutrients. This is why earthworm casts have been the standard natural greenhouse fertilizer since the 17th century.

This was a good read Mark, but it brought up a few questions for me regarding my property. It is mostly wooded river bottom with moist, loam soils. I recently took a soil sample for some food plots that I cut out of the forest last year, and at each dig site I had multiple earthworms present within the first few inches of dirt. We're talking about a small sampling, the size of a garden spade so definitely less than a square foot. There have been a couple of decades worth of leaf debris, grasses, rotting trees, etc to provide food for the worms and my plots are small and done by hand, so no tillage. My test results were low P and K, but based on the numbers from the article I would think the worms should be producing literal tons of each nutrient. Do you think that the low ph (5.7) is the cause and it is simply decreasing the usable amounts of P and K? Will the worms produce even better in a more neutral soil? Also, the recommendation was to put down fertilizers heavy in both of my lacking nutrients, but the article says fertilizers kill earthworms. Doesn't that seem self destructive for the long term?

I will be trying to keep green on these plots with year round rotations using things that are resilient to flooding (alsike, trefoil, vetch) so there should continue to be plenty of organic matter for the worms. I can only hope they expand their colonies and produce even more nutrients for me in the future. Thanks for all the research you do.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

[MarkDarvin]

This was a good read Mark, but it brought up a few questions for me regarding my property. It is mostly wooded river bottom with moist, loam soils. I recently took a soil sample for some food plots that I cut out of the forest last year, and at each dig site I had multiple earthworms present within the first few inches of dirt. We're talking about a small sampling, the size of a garden spade so definitely less than a square foot. There have been a couple of decades worth of leaf debris, grasses, rotting trees, etc to provide food for the worms and my plots are small and done by hand, so no tillage. My test results were low P and K, but based on the numbers from the article I would think the worms should be producing literal tons of each nutrient. Do you think that the low ph (5.7) is the cause and it is simply decreasing the usable amounts of P and K? Will the worms produce even better in a more neutral soil? Also, the recommendation was to put down fertilizers heavy in both of my lacking nutrients, but the article says fertilizers kill earthworms. Doesn't that seem self destructive for the long term?

I will be trying to keep green on these plots with year round rotations using things that are resilient to flooding (alsike, trefoil, vetch) so there should continue to be plenty of organic matter for the worms. I can only hope they expand their colonies and produce even more nutrients for me in the future. Thanks for all the research you do.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

Without giving away the entire premise of my upcoming book (who knows?), I will tell you this much. Don't fret about your P&K numbers if you're not spraying or tilling. If you keep those earthworms alive and your soil intact, your plants will find all the P&K they need. The trouble with a soil sample is we're only testing a very tiny part of the soil.

Consider if you're using a soil probe. We take 7-10 cigar sized plugs of soil out of a given area. What you hit is going to greatly influence your reading. What if you hit a hoard of worm castings and a well used tunnel? What if you don't? Does it matter? It really doesn't. When you've got intact worm colonies, you've likely also got intact mycorhizal fungi networks. And they move nutrients from where they are to where they are needed. No soil test can tell you how effectively your biology cycles nutrients and moves them around.

Also, separate lime and gypsum from what we think of as fertilizers. Lime and gypsum are simply rearranged rocks. There's no juiced up acidity to supplant or kill your soil biology. You're just moving rocks. They will help worms.

 

[MarkDarvin]

I should add, I'm not against soil testing. I still think it has it's place. However, what information we take away from it is what needs to change. I think they're very good at showcasing soil texture and CEC, pH, buffer pH, and macro mineral composition (Ca, Mg, K). They can tell us if we have poor drainage. But that's about it.

The more I think about this, we should hope to see low nutrient levels. Before you think I've lost my cookies, consider this. How many of us have put on a season's worth of fertilizer in one shot? Would you want a year's worth of food put on your kitchen table at once? I wouldn't. We should view our soil nutrients as very important and only brought outta the pantry when we need them, one bite at a time. How fast we can send the kids downstairs to get enough for a meal and get back upstairs? That's what I wanna know.

I have been working on the sulfate cycle. Where does it come from? Does it still exist? Because the gypsum and sulfur hucksters would have you believe the only way to have it is to buy it from them. Malarkey! Anyway, searching through all that, I found that 1-ton of worm casts produced per acre per day is the same as putting on 8lbs of sulfur/day. Because those worms are also crapping out calcium, magnesium, potassium, and gypsum, the sulfur effects on pH is stifled.

#PoopStuff

 

[pinetag]

Without giving away the entire premise of my upcoming book (who knows?), I will tell you this much. Don't fret about your P&K numbers if you're not spraying or tilling. If you keep those earthworms alive and your soil intact, your plants will find all the P&K they need. The trouble with a soil sample is we're only testing a very tiny part of the soil.

Consider if you're using a soil probe. We take 7-10 cigar sized plugs of soil out of a given area. What you hit is going to greatly influence your reading. What if you hit a hoard of worm castings and a well used tunnel? What if you don't? Does it matter? It really doesn't. When you've got intact worm colonies, you've likely also got intact mycorhizal fungi networks. And they move nutrients from where they are to where they are needed. No soil test can tell you how effectively your biology cycles nutrients and moves them around.

Also, separate lime and gypsum from what we think of as fertilizers. Lime and gypsum are simply rearranged rocks. There's no juiced up acidity to supplant or kill your soil biology. You're just moving rocks. They will help worms.

I'm very new to all this so forgive my ignorance, but where you say "no soil test can tell you how your soil cycles nutrients"...isn't that where the ph part comes in? I thought that tells you how well the plants can uptake nutrients? Should I not worry too much about my 5.7 ph then? I like your overall thoughts! A healthy cycle benefits all organisms which is why I am trying to replicate nature through no till, not establishing monoculture plots, etc. BTW, I learned all that from you guys. Lay some more wisdom down!!

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[MarkDarvin]

I'm very new to all this so forgive my ignorance, but where you say "no soil test can tell you how your soil cycles nutrients"...isn't that where the ph part comes in? I thought that tells you how well the plants can uptake nutrients? Should I not worry too much about my 5.7 ph then? I like your overall thoughts! A healthy cycle benefits all organisms which is why I am trying to replicate nature through no till, not establishing monoculture plots, etc. BTW, I learned all that from you guys. Lay some more wisdom down!!
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No. When I say how fast nutrients cycle, I'm talking about how quickly things break down. Generating tons and tons of biomass (rye) is awesome, but it's only part of the program. The faster you can produce it, break it back down, and produce it again is what's important. In farming today, residue accumulation is a big problem. Think corn.

This past year, I had a great crop of barley in my existing clover. I was excited to have barley straw on the ground to protect my clover from cooking, and to recharge the carbon in my clover. It was there and mature in June, and with seed heads over the whole plot. When I went back in July to mow, I couldn't find any seed heads or the straw it was attached to. I think the deer took the heads, and the rest took the straw.

I've got some rye coming into clover I planted in 2019 this spring. I got a good germ on it and I'm excited to see what kind of straw yield I can get from it, and how fast my system can eat it.

As far as your pH, I'd maybe shoot for the low 6's and call it good. The only reason I'd keep applying from there is if you have a weed problem that is pH driven (like fern or horsetail like I had), or you're still seeing a visible drag in what you've got growing. And even that isn't necessarily pH.

 

[pinetag]

No. When I say how fast nutrients cycle, I'm talking about how quickly things break down. Generating tons and tons of biomass (rye) is awesome, but it's only part of the program. The faster you can produce it, break it back down, and produce it again is what's important. In farming today, residue accumulation is a big problem. Think corn.

This past year, I had a great crop of barley in my existing clover. I was excited to have barley straw on the ground to protect my clover from cooking, and to recharge the carbon in my clover. It was there and mature in June, and with seed heads over the whole plot. When I went back in July to mow, I couldn't find any seed heads or the straw it was attached to. I think the deer took the heads, and the rest took the straw.

I've got some rye coming into clover I planted in 2019 this spring. I got a good germ on it and I'm excited to see what kind of straw yield I can get from it, and how fast my system can eat it.

As far as your pH, I'd maybe shoot for the low 6's and call it good. The only reason I'd keep applying from there is if you have a weed problem that is pH driven (like fern or horsetail like I had), or you're still seeing a visible drag in what you've got growing. And even that isn't necessarily pH.

Alright cool. I'm going to put lime down sometime over the next month and then get my clover/trefoil mix in the ground just as the temps start to rise. Then, in the fall I will be seeding a wildlife mix into what I hope is a decent stand of mature clover/trefoil. Thanks for the guidance and good luck with your rye biomass!

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[MarkDarvin]

Now imagine if you have those 22 pigs per acre (or the occasional 10,000lbs per acre of cattle) grazing through it... how much gut and saliva biology interactions there are, how much vegetation gets converted into manure, how much those worms benefit. It's worth a few moments thought.

You keep bringing up that livestock drool. I dig it. I have to imagine deer drool has a role as well?

 

[catscratch]

You keep bringing up that livestock drool. I dig it. I have to imagine deer drool has a role as well?

I would think deer drool has an impact. Google "saliva vegetation interactions". Livestock gets the hero shot because they're easier to control than deer for scholarly research type of stuff. Plenty of reading out there.

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[jlane35]

I think I’ll work on soil health and let the worms do the work in my food plots and garden instead of buying the castings.
(I wish I knew why my pictures turned 90 degrees)

These castings work out to be $2,833.33 per 2000 pounds!

 

[MarkDarvin]

I think I’ll work on soil health and let the worms do the work in my food plots and garden instead of buying the castings. View attachment 21144
(I wish I knew why my pictures turned 90 degrees)

These castings work out to be $2,833.33 per 2000 pounds!

We could spend thousands per acre if we tried to buy all the nutrients plants need and put them on the moment they need them. This is why ag science celebrates yield per acre and not profit per acre.

 

[TX-Aggie]

We could spend thousands per acre if we tried to buy all the nutrients plants need and put them on the moment they need them. This is why ag science celebrates yield per acre and not profit per acre.

This is where I laugh when Gabe Brown starts getting rev'd up in his talks. Someone will questions his yield, and he'll state "I'm not the top, but near the top; however, I'll line up my profit per acre against anyone in my area, and blow them out of the water". The quote he uses from someone else applies to modern agriculture in the worst way : "if you want to make small changes, change the way you do things. If you want to make large changes, change the way you look at things". He changed from looking at yield per acre, to profit per acre - he did this by studying how nature did things to apply to his stewardship of his land, and that is what governs him now. Don't get me wrong - Gabe is a self promoting genius, but he isn't wrong in his approach.

I finished "A Soil Owner's Manual" by Jon Stika last night. If you are a beginner and haven't read this book, I would suggest you do. It is short, but informative without being overbearing. I'm seriously considering giving it as Christmas presents to my father, uncle, and cousins this year.

I have been running 2 plots on our farm through regenerative practices for 2.5 years since our last tillage in those plots. So far, these plots have been hit the hardest out of all of our plots. One of the regen plots is in the same field as a "conventional" practice - the regenerative plot was mowed down, and still being kept at "lip high". The "conventional" one was being utilized, but really didn't get a pounding until the regen was slicked off. Next step - expand the regen plot, and keep working to convince my father and uncle to move towards leaving the discs in the barn on all the others.

 

[MarkDarvin]

"if you want to make small changes, change the way you do things. If you want to make large changes, change the way you look at things".

This is a big deal. The less I do, the more I do. If you wanna do it, then don't do it.