Where Did I Go Wrong?

[Osceola]

Can you guys help me diagnose what I may have done wrong with this T&M plot? On May 6th I mowed a couple feet of pretty thick rye to kill it and allow the clover some sunlight. When I came back on May 26th the rye was still growing, so I mowed again. Came back June 16th and the rye was still going strong. I thought this stuff was supposed to die with one mowing. I decided to experiment a little and rolled it with my culti-packer. On July 15th I sprayed to kill everything in the field and start fresh. You'd think I would have a really nice thatch layer preserving my soil moisture at this point, but this is what it looks like. The green you see is some oats and radish I threw down a couple weeks ago. The soil is pretty dry and hard. I've had above average rain this summer, so this soil should be primed and ready for a great plot. What went wrong?

 

[dogghr]

Not sure a real answer but couple thots. I don't mow rye until couple weeks before rotation. I think frequent mowing allowed rye to decompose before you got to your planting stages. Also, first time rotation? What are soil tests, particularly OM, previous crops, etc? It takes a while to get T&M to work perfect and lot of issues such as too much or too little mulch. Also soil nutrinet levels, ph, OM, CEC, weather, plot location, all have their affect. Next year I would allow rye to remain until closer to rotation.

 

[Chainsaw]

Can you guys help me diagnose what I may have done wrong with this T&M plot? On May 6th I mowed three or four feet of pretty thick rye to kill it and allow the clover some sunlight. When I came back on May 26th the rye was still growing, so I mowed again. Came back June 16th and the rye was still going strong. I thought this stuff was supposed to die with one mowing. I decided to experiment a little and rolled it with my culti-packer. On July 15th I sprayed to kill everything in the field and start fresh. You'd think I would have a really nice thatch layer preserving my soil moisture at this point, but this is what it looks like. The green you see is some oats and radish I threw down a couple weeks ago. The soil is pretty dry and hard. To top it off, I've had above average rain this summer, so this soil should be primed and ready for a great plot. What went wrong?
View attachment 9234

Mowing rye in it's early growth stages(before flowering) has never killed it here. Mowing once seed heads begin to be seen has killed it. Here is the link to everything Rye grain written by some of the best researchers in the business.

http://www.sare.org/Learning-Center...Text-Version/Nonlegume-Cover-Crops/Cereal-Rye

First your ground looks fairly bare to me thatch wise but the picture on my screen isn't the greatest; and some fields planted during those steady ongoing rains germinated fine but then the plants drowned in place a few weeks later.
I have not seen the alleopathic tendencies of rye ever work against a new seeding but the info in the link as well as other articles I have read says that it can work against a new seeding of smaller seeds for up to thirty days from the date of killing the rye. Maybe that could have come into play in your case.

 

[j-bird]

Mowing alone before rye seeds out won't kill it. So I would suspect your rye shaded out your clover and that is why it didn't do well. The thatch from the mowing may have helped contribute to the demise of the clover as well. I tend to have to terminate rye - either by chemical or tillage and it gets real tall on my place as well. If your rye was too thick that could have been a contributor as well......also are you sure you planted a perennial clover? I'm not trying to pick it to death, there just are many factors that can contribute to a failure and you are doing the right thing by trying to learn what went wrong.

 

[Brian]

Just curious- how heavily did you plant the rye last year?

 

[Osceola]

Just curious- how heavily did you plant the rye last year?

I laid it on pretty heavy. About 133 lbs/ac.

 

[Osceola]

Mowing alone before rye seeds out won't kill it. So I would suspect your rye shaded out your clover and that is why it didn't do well. The thatch from the mowing may have helped contribute to the demise of the clover as well. I tend to have to terminate rye - either by chemical or tillage and it gets real tall on my place as well. If your rye was too thick that could have been a contributor as well......also are you sure you planted a perennial clover? I'm not trying to pick it to death, there just are many factors that can contribute to a failure and you are doing the right thing by trying to learn what went wrong.

I used ladino clover at about 7.5 lbs/ac.

 

[Osceola]

Not sure a real answer but couple thots. I don't mow rye until couple weeks before rotation. I think frequent mowing allowed rye to decompose before you got to your planting stages. Also, first time rotation? What are soil tests, particularly OM, previous crops, etc? It takes a while to get T&M to work perfect and lot of issues such as too much or too little mulch. Also soil nutrinet levels, ph, OM, CEC, weather, plot location, all have their affect. Next year I would allow rye to remain until closer to rotation.

I don't know OM. Didn't get that in my test, but the pH is 6.1 and I added 800 lbs/ac pelletized lime. This is my third year planting this field.

 

[dogghr]

Add some RC with your white and rye when you overseed this fall. Try to do before a rain, should do good next year.

 

[j-bird]

I used ladino clover at about 7.5 lbs/ac.

Ok - so you used good clover.

My opinion:
It all started with a heavy seeding rate of the rye....

- you went a little heavy (by roughly 30%) on the rye. This created a denser stand especially in the spring and more difficult conditions for the clover to get the light and potentially soil moisture it needed.
- you mowed too late. That additional height created a lot of shade and when turned to thatch created too dense of a canopy for the stressed clover to survive for a longer period of time.
- you didn't terminate the rye. The rye continued to grow and require yet additional mowing and continue to fight with the clover for soil moisture and sunlight and the like as well.

What I would suggest for next time.....
- plant no more than 100 lbs total of cereal grain (I would suggest using oats or wheat). Oats will be dead come spring so no issues there and wheat won't be as tall as fast as the rye so it buys you some time if needed. You can add rye - but at the reduced planting and making it a mix it will grossly reduce the chance of the rye having the ability to repeat it's affects next time. If you want to mix all 3 just apply 33 lbs of each and you will be fine as well. I have had my issues with rye and it's height so I will plant it but at reduced rates.
- IF you need to terminate the surviving cereal grains come spring - spray them with cleth - as early as you can. Hopefully what you will see with the reduced rate of planted grains and then being even shorter (wheat) or even fewer than fall (oats) will not require termination. The clover should have the light it needs to thrive and you can allow the surviving grains to run their course, seed out and die or feed other critters on their own.
- your rate for your clover is fine.

 

[Osceola]

Ok - so you used good clover.

My opinion:
It all started with a heavy seeding rate of the rye....

- you went a little heavy (by roughly 30%) on the rye. This created a denser stand especially in the spring and more difficult conditions for the clover to get the light and potentially soil moisture it needed.
- you mowed too late. That additional height created a lot of shade and when turned to thatch created too dense of a canopy for the stressed clover to survive for a longer period of time.
- you didn't terminate the rye. The rye continued to grow and require yet additional mowing and continue to fight with the clover for soil moisture and sunlight and the like as well.

What I would suggest for next time.....
- plant no more than 100 lbs total of cereal grain (I would suggest using oats or wheat). Oats will be dead come spring so no issues there and wheat won't be as tall as fast as the rye so it buys you some time if needed. You can add rye - but at the reduced planting and making it a mix it will grossly reduce the chance of the rye having the ability to repeat it's affects next time. If you want to mix all 3 just apply 33 lbs of each and you will be fine as well. I have had my issues with rye and it's height so I will plant it but at reduced rates.
- IF you need to terminate the surviving cereal grains come spring - spray them with cleth - as early as you can. Hopefully what you will see with the reduced rate of planted grains and then being even shorter (wheat) or even fewer than fall (oats) will not require termination. The clover should have the light it needs to thrive and you can allow the surviving grains to run their course, seed out and die or feed other critters on their own.
- your rate for your clover is fine.

This makes perfect sense as to why my clover struggled. I still don't quite understand why my thatch layer is so thin after all that mowing and rolling of the rye. Even though I may have inadvertently ruined my clover with too much rye, you'd think I would have a good thatch layer to give me a good start this fall. I have already seeded it with 50# oats, 50# rye, 7# ladino and 5# radish and gotten some rain, so hopefully all is not lost. I also broadcast a brassica mix in July on half the field and that's doing terrible with poor germination, so I've over-seeded that with rye and clover to try to save it.

 

[j-bird]

I don't do throw and mow so I am not sure what I would expect from a thatch perspective and I know the process tends to work better on some soils vs others so maybe there might be something there.....I don't know. Do some digging for T&M threads and see if there isn't something there that may lead you in a better direction. Me personally.....I would have burnt the thatch off and/or disced the soil, spread my seed and then packed with the tires or cultipacker. I'm just a hack myself, but I know even small seeds will germinate better with some soil disturbance. The only time I don't disturb the soil in some manner in planting is when I am overseeding an existing bean or corn plot and am just looking for a little variety. Sorry I 'm not more help.

 

[Rempump870]

I find when the WR is mowed and its still green, the thatch disappears pretty fast. It acts similar to thatch in my yard when I mow my grass. When WR makes it to maturity, sets a seed head, its 'woodier' if that is a word. It holds up longer and last longer when it gets mowed, knocked over or even left to stand.

When you mowed the WR, I am guessing the thatch that was left behind was pretty thick and this could have chocked out the clover. Also when WR is mowed early on it seems to thicken up, I am not sure if sets more leaves or what but it seems to get thicker. This could have also contributed to the clover being lost.

For Future plots with WR, you could try letting it set its seed head and then mowing or rolling in in mid late July after it has started to brown up.

 

[X-farmerdan]

Let's talk about the OM/Thatch issue. Rye isn't the greatest for sheer volume. If you were to leave the rye stand and harvest it as forage it might yield 5 tons of dry matter. So, it wasn't harvested. It's just laying there. For lack of a better answer let's assume the stuff weighs 5 lbs per cubic foot. So you have 2,000 cu ft of material. If you wanted the stuff an inch deep you would need 3200 cu ft of rye. I guess, in simple terms, rye is not the going to provide the (dry) thatch layer you expected.

 

[Mennoniteman]

Like rempump870 said, throw n mow works best in mid to late summer with a mature tubular brown straw type crop. Mowed brown straw thatch is the perfect starter condition for a new crop, which is why landscapers use so much of it. Clover and blade grass don't give much mowed thatch. I'll drill fall or early spring small grain 50 lbs to the acre, interseed clover, and never even need to mow to release the clover, it gets enough sunshine to grow into a nice crop without ever mowing once. Eventually the deer trample the straw down and mow the clover for me.

 

[Mennoniteman]

Let's talk about the OM/Thatch issue. Rye isn't the greatest for sheer volume. If you were to leave the rye stand and harvest it as forage it might yield 5 tons of dry matter. So, it wasn't harvested. It's just laying there. For lack of a better answer let's assume the stuff weighs 5 lbs per cubic foot. So you have 2,000 cu ft of material. If you wanted the stuff an inch deep you would need 3200 cu ft of rye. I guess, in simple terms, rye is not the going to provide the (dry) thatch layer you expected.

Rye gives more straw than most other small grain, horse and buggy farmers plant rye specifically for the great straw bedding material. It doesn't weigh much but has a lot of volume.

 

[shawn cox]

Like rempump870 said, throw n mow works best in mid to late summer with a mature tubular brown straw type crop. Mowed brown straw thatch is the perfect starter condition for a new crop, which is why landscapers use so much of it. Clover and blade grass don't give much mowed thatch. I'll drill fall or early spring small grain 50 lbs to the acre, interseed clover, and never even need to mow to release the clover, it gets enough sunshine to grow into a nice crop without ever mowing once. Eventually the deer trample the straw down and mow the clover for me.

What he said^^ I never mow mine to release the clover. It does great with me letting it seed out and die on its own. The deer end up knocking it all down eating the clover and chicory. I only use around 50 lbs and acre of rye when I use it as a nurse crop for clover.

 

[FarmerD]

It doesn't get much better than this! (Shawn & Mennoiteman) You've planted an almost year round crop with various seed ..... good for the deer. You've kept something growing in there ...... great for the soil. If we plant a "diverse cover crop" that feeds the deer, mines nutrients from below, breaks up the soil and increases organic matter ...... just doesn't get much better than that.

You've almost gone back in time, to 1950 or before, when "all" farmers were organic farmers! You grew your own fertilizer, had diversity to limit pest damage and gave some weed control. The only thing, lacking, to back then, is manure being worked in to the soil!

 

[FarmerD]

My apologies to the OP. As stated above, I think you mowed too soon, too often and planted a little too thick. You can only kill rye, with mowing when it's very near mature.

All this food plotting stuff is trial and error for all of us, tailoring our food plotting plan to our soil, our deer densities, overall acreage and location. You will get it figured out!

 

[FarmerD]

I'll just add that in the spring, cereal rye will take off early, grow quickly, and get tall, possibly before your clover thought about waking up. Winter wheat wakes up slower in the spring, doesn't get as tall and might be a better companion crop, if your goal is to have clover feed your deer the next summer.