TSI/Logging Input

Recebtly purchased 150 acres in Southern Maine. When looking for property I really wanted something that wasn’t clear cut and the typical Maine pines. I did end up finding a piece with mature white oaks throughout and nice mature timber. I know it’s pretty to the eye but not for deer management. I have one 36 acre piece that is mostly pines and our forester thinks we should do some cutting on all the property. I’m scared to death to say the least. Just curious what people input/ thoughts from their own experiences.
 
Effects of a major logging operation could differ greatly depending on location, type of habitat, density of invasive species and other factors but I can give you my perspective based on my experience. First, I'm no forester and have owned my property for less than two years.

We own 160 acres in the mountains of northwestern NC, close to the TN and VA borders. We purchased the property at the tail end of a logging operation. Below is a rough breakdown of the timber:

~20 acres select cut in 2013
~25 acres clear cut in 2015/16
~30 acres clear/select cut 2017/18

The remaining 85 acres is mature closed canopy timber. Our woods are mainly hardwoods dominated by tulip poplar, hickory, maple, oak and other less valuable species. There are some white pine throughout as well.

I'm not sure what the deer population was like prior to the logging but it's definitely high now. There is no shortage of early successional and young forest habitat that whitetail deer thrive in. As with any mountainous timber property, it's not particularly easy to hunt but we have lots of security cover and that's important if you want deer. I thought there would be major difference in usage in the different aged timber areas but they all hold deer. We had lots of rain and an incredible growing season this year and I've observed many deer bedding in the younger (2017/18) cuts which surprised me a little.

2017/18 cut, picture taken July 2018

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2015/16 cut, picture taken November 2018

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2017/18 cut closeup, Picture September 2018

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Logging operations might not be “pretty” to everyone but they’re a thing of beauty if you’re trying to provide food and cover for wildlife. I wouldn’t rush out and clear cut your property but also would not be afraid to clearcut some areas and select cut others based on the recommendation of a local forester.

Good luck!
 
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Congratulations on your purchase and welcome to the forum. Weekender said it well [Logging operations might not be “pretty” to everyone but they’re a thing of beauty if you’re trying to provide food and cover for wildlife]
What is the most important to you; wildlife or a stand of beautiful Maine pines and oaks? I understand both, I enjoy looking at and walking through a forest of mature trees. But when I look at weekender's pictures I see an even greater beauty, tons of food and cover for deer. A mature oak woods has 1/6 the food for deer that a brushy, thick timber stand improvement has. Mature woods can be similar to a barren desert as far as deer food, therefore deer numbers are going to be much lower there. One idea, 150 acres gives you some flexibility, let several acres of mature white oak and pine trees standing in clumps in stretegic areas where you can enjoy them so you have some of the best of both worlds. Also, clear cutting is not a good idea.
 
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The sight of a clear cut is beautiful to me, because I know what it means for wildlife.
I would recommend clear cutting some small sections of a couple acres; and in areas with a good stand of mature white oaks, have everything cut except for the oaks. It also wouldn’t hurt to have a section select cut.
Example: 5 small clear cuts totaling 15 acres, 15 acres of released oaks, and 60 acres select cut (still leaving white oaks).
This leaves you with quality deer habitat, and you would still have 60 acres of the mature forests that you enjoy.
That’s just what I would do if I were in your shoes.


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Logging was the best habitat improvement I have done.... You just got to make sure it's done right and with YOUR objectives in mind.

I will warn you...even when you do everything right. When they are dropping trees left and right, at some point, your going to stand there and think to yourself, "I just destroyed my woods...What have I done???" And your going to want to throw up! I know I certainly did. HOWEVER - you will survive, your woods will not only survive but it will thrive and so will the wildlife. In 2 to 3 years time you will agree it was the best thing you could have done. I think I have some pics posted on my land tour about what I started with and how it looks now. Like I said...best thing I ever did.

It all hinges on doing it properly.
 
Logging was the best habitat improvement I have done.... You just got to make sure it's done right and with YOUR objectives in mind.

I will warn you...even when you do everything right. When they are dropping trees left and right, at some point, your going to stand there and think to yourself, "I just destroyed my woods...What have I done???" And your going to want to throw up! I know I certainly did. HOWEVER - you will survive, your woods will not only survive but it will thrive and so will the wildlife. In 2 to 3 years time you will agree it was the best thing you could have done. I think I have some pics posted on my land tour about what I started with and how it looks now. Like I said...best thing I ever did.

It all hinges on doing it properly.


...........and properly hinging......

bill
 
As usual I'll be the one to throw the curve ball and another option. Have nothing against timbering whether selective harvest or clear cut and it can provide lots of browse. Now..there is a misconception that the precolonial mature forest were like todays, void of any undergrowth. If you read any of the old journals the early explore were hardly able to pass thru the thickets beneath 3-400 yo trees. Eastern forests were of mainly hard mast producing hardwoods of various types. They were not inhibited as todays forests are by shade tolerant trees providing little wildlife value and preventing growth of healthy hardwood. The worst is high grade timbering which is the norm. And what do we get once the initial early growth so good for deer? Thickets of invasive MFR or AO or others along with a preponderance of shade tolerant trees such as maples, et al.
The early forests with death, fire , and storm, was able to maintain a thick understory in most places with out the need for a clearing by saw. The soils were 6+deep, covered in sometimes several feet of moisture absorbing , heat absorbing, drought preventing, moss. Rotting trees replenished the amendments within the soil and wildlife of all types were in abundance and equilibrium.
So is there an option to true. logging? I think so and I manage accordingly. I work at dropping trees around my mature/75yo oaks. I create Random Clusters creating open areas of browse growth that funnel deer traffic along their layout. And I should use fire, but don't.
The adjacent 100 ac to me was heavy selective logged 8 years ago. The other side of 100 was logged about 15 years ago. I am able to keep the mature bucks in the area on my place more than they ever travel to those adjacent lands in daylight hours.
I'm not saying don't log, especially mature pines, but I will say there are options and sometimes we can be our own worst enemy. Good luck.
 
Extremely heavy cutting over a three year period here has made for some outstanding browse growth and more and better deer. There is still about 150 acres left to cut here and we are about ready to schedule it for whenever I can get my preferred logger here to do the cutting. As for your property I would cut different depending on my age. If younger like 45 or younger with deer hunting my prime consideration I would consider a heavy cut on 30 acres at a time every two or three years. For us the first year was a bust in cut over areas;other than a button buck or two, the deer left the cut area for the first year. And then returned on the second and multiplied in population on the third.

As for heavy cutting of oak trees that are older and thus very heavy nut producers, I'd be hesitant about doing that. Timber value wise you would want to cut the lower oaks out to bring sun and space to the higher end oaks which would be valued at many, many times what a lower end oak was valued at. However I would definitely not agree to cut lower end oaks unless it was to release and thus benefit specific higher end oaks.

We have lots of new cool ways to develop deer habitat but I'm not so sure that any of them are better for the deer than the checker board cutting plans described in the Ruffed Grouse Society writings.

If you are in doubt about what to do and can, take the time to visit lots of sites that have been cut for deer hunting habitat. I'm sure most or all of us on the forum would be happy to show you first hand what logging has done for our individual properties. Logging can be a home run deer wise and income wise but like anything it must be done thoughtfully to meet your individual goals.
 
I read this talk about stages of growth, but woods doesn't need to be continuously going through stages. A properly managed forest has something for everyone, and stays that way. We have timberlands that have been in the family since the 50's, and we cut quality 18-24" oak, poplar and cherry trees every 13 years. Due to management there are few undesirable species there and this woods is constantly thick with briars and young trees in the understory, and also always has some big trees, but looks like it's always in the same stage. Getting a woods to this stage of optimum timber production and wildlife habitat generally starts with a TSI, and every logging process after is also a timber stand improvement until the woods is in good shape. If best management practices are followed, over time a woods will usually gravitate towards growing whatever species of quality trees that are predominant in the local area. Before the biggest trees have touching crowns it's time to take to thin them, if they aren't timber grade, they should go for pulp wood, but the regular thinning is important. With sunshine getting to the forest floor everything grows like it's on steroids.
 
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I read this talk about stages of growth, but woods doesn't need to be continuously going through stages. A properly managed forest has something for everyone, and stays that way. We have timberlands that have been in the family since the 50's, and we cut quality 18-22" oak, poplar and cherry trees every 13 years. Due to management there are few undesirable species there and this woods is constantly thick with briars and young trees in the understory, and also always has some big trees, but looks like it's always in the same stage. Getting a woods to this stage of optimum timber production and wildlife habitat generally starts with a TSI, and every logging process after is also a timber stand improvement until the woods is in good shape. If best management practices are followed, over time a woods will usually gravitate towards growing whatever species of quality trees that are predominant in the local area. Before the biggest trees have touching crowns it's time to take to thin them, if they aren't timber grade, they should go for pulp wood, but the regular thinning is important. With sunshine getting to the forest floor everything grows like it's on steroids.
I like this. Can you please expound on your method of assessment?
 
I like this. Can you please expound on your method of assessment?
Method of assessment? Knowing tree and invasive species is key, I cannot emphasize that enough. The biggest problem today with many hardwood forests is that the sprouts and saplings in the understory are of a different, lesser, or invasive species than the big quality trees that we want, and that hopefully the bulk of the upper story forest is comprised of. If you want to grow oaks, cherry, and hard maple, that's what the majority of little saplings should be, not striped maple, tree of heaven, european alder, shrub honeysuckle etc. growing so thick that only a few quality trees make it past them. Those big trees are seed trees but too few of these seeds grow for lack of sunlight because of shading by undesirables and/or too many big trees. Yes, some of these undesirables are deer browse, but quality tree sprouts are also deer browse, and don't worry, even with your best efforts, there will always be plenty of undesirables left for browse. Some of the bigger undesirable trees like pines and soft maple can be removed for pulp wood as part of a TSI operation, but that still leaves the bush and shrub sized undesirables like shrub honeysuckle that will grow even faster after the pulpwood has been removed. I've been in the woods 3 days this past week with 25% triclopyr and diesel fuel doing basal spraying on undesirables, I really like 1" of snow to do this because I can see much further, and I can do late season scouting at the same time, got another week to go, my target is to do 8 gallons ($65@gal) of 61% triclopyr (24 gal mixed) total this winter. Spray all sides of the tree from the ground including roots to 12" high, wet but not to the point of running off. Hinge cutting and mineral sprout stump cutting of undesirables are some of the other methods in the toolbox, but some of this stuff you just want dead. Hack and squirt is cheaper because you can use gly, but too slow for large areas. But all this is impossible if you don't know your plants and trees, do not kill saplings if you don't know what you are killing! Hiring someone in to do spraying is cost prohibitive to the point that it's not feasible. In hardwood forests the goal of maximum timber production and the goal of maximum wildlife habitat is actually managed the same way. Not to boast, but as an example, my best woods is a mixture of widely spaced big timber trees, middle sized timber trees, sapling timber trees and thick brushy briar patches that puts $1500 an acre checks in my pocket about every 13 years. A loggers chainsaw is one of my most valuable habitat tools, I can sit and watch, and it pays me too boot, but the invasive control is on me, not much to it if not neglected, a never ending battle in poorly managed woods. As stated, the big tree spacings need to be so wide that they always allow sunlight to the forest floor, so that the composition of the understory changes very little, and does not thin noticeablely during the 13 year cycle. Trees should be spaced so that at maturity the crowns are in close proximity but not touching. The wide tree spacings promotes faster timber growth and less tree disease, but too wide spacing grows shorter trees with too many intermediate limbs for quality timber. A faster logging cycle taking less trees is key to my management plan, we are taking a diameter cut of about 18"-24" oak poplar cherry etc every 13 years in an area with good soil and rainfall, lesser conditions on another of my properties lengthens that cycle. To summarize; food plotting is one important equation of habitat management, but improving your woods is just as important. Educate yourself, know your trees! Then you are ready to start managing your own woods, turning it into a beautiful place that pays you $ to manage trees and wildlife.
 
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You and I think exactly alike. Although I work on a much smaller scale than you but soon I will have the time. My constant argument is the persistent high grade logging repeatedly in my area. And yet the results are invasive like mfr and a preponderance of shade tolerant trees which prevent not only good acorn producers to mature but hinder profit margins of future timber harvests. I like your 13 year plan but not sure why you choose 13? Thanks for the response. And you are right. Have to know your plants.
Are you as aggressive with tree removal on the dryer less productive growth wise, south slopes as you are w typically more productive north slopes? Thanks again.


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You and I think exactly alike. Although I work on a much smaller scale than you but soon I will have the time. My constant argument is the persistent high grade logging repeatedly in my area. And yet the results are invasive like mfr and a preponderance of shade tolerant trees which prevent not only good acorn producers to mature but hinder profit margins of future timber harvests. I like your 13 year plan but not sure why you choose 13? Thanks for the response. And you are right. Have to know your plants.
Are you as aggressive with tree removal on the dryer less productive growth wise, south slopes as you are w typically more productive north slopes? Thanks again.


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As I noted, the cycle should be adjusted according to growing conditions to maintain sunlight to the ground. Highgrading kills the goose that laid the golden eggs, but not much to be done if the neighbors elected to do it. Yes, adjust to the slopes, but some southern slopes grow better timber due to more sunlight if the moisture is there.
 
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