The Mighty Acorn

Thanks guys, so we shall continue.

Germination…. sound acorns have a capacity of 75-95%, which is pretty impressive for a nut/fruit falling from the sky on to open ground if you think about it.
White oak germinate as soon as they fall to the ground. Reds, overwinter on the ground then germinate the following spring.
For gemination to occur, the moisture content of whites cannot drop below 30-50% and 20-30 for reds. So you can see a dry winter, or poor conditions to maintain moisture, could mean the demise of success of a seedling to occur.
Litter or soil is necessary for protection to promote this moisture content level and is necessary for successful germination.
Germination is hypogeal and is complete in 3-5 weeks.

Lets digress for a second. Hypogeal. That is the type of germination that occurs below ground as opposed to some seeds that are epigeal, i. e. , germinate above ground. Importance? Because the cotyledon remains below ground, it is unaffected by frost or grazing. This strategy allows the plant to produce less seeds and each seed having a higher success of surviving.
Plants that use hypogeal germination need less external nutrients to grow thus they are more common on nutrient poor soils. Such as my mountainsides. They also need less sunlight thus they can survive in dense forest where there is much competition for sunlight.
Hypogeal plants grow more slowly at first, then after this slow first phase, they grow faster than an epigeal plant. They also are more resistant to flooding even tho that can slow their process.

I won't go thru the process again here, but if you look at the first few pages somewhere in my habitat thread, I went thru a simplified germination process for a seed if you would like to read.

Are you looking at that acorn a little differently now as you cruise thru the woods? Pretty amazing stuff, and the most amazing to me is yet to come. To be continued…..
 
Keep in mind as you roam your forests this spring looking at the oak blooms, the majority of acorn producing female flowers tend to be at the upper reaches of an oak tree. Why do you think that would be???
Studies show that from equal numbers of red and white oak acorns, that the number of seedlings produced is five times greater for the whites, than the reds. The exact reason is not known. But since the whites drop before the reds, and are a smaller nut, and germinate that year, they are probably afforded more protection from the more leaf litter covering them.
Studies have shown that success of acorn growth is more related to favorable sites than size of the acorn crop.

Early seedling growth…
The main oak types in my area are medium in light tolerance and reach maximum photosynthesis earlier at lower light intensities than less tolerant such as southern pines. Thus they compete well in a broad range of light climates if moisture is adequate.
The exclusion of prime oaks from good sites ( Northern reds, Scarlet, Whites), is due to insufficient moisture.
The exclusion form good sites of poor site oaks such as Blackjack, is due to their low shade tolerance and slow growth. This certainly follows the pattern on my property as my dry rocky ridges and on rain deprived dry lee side slopes tend to be scrubby looking black oak.

Nearly 90% of oak production occurs before either light or heavy timber cuts. The amount and distribution of oak regeneration is not necessarily related to density of timber cut. The amount and density of oak regeneration occurs from seedling sprouts that occurred during decades before the cut. The major oak species in these areas are white oak, partly due to that reds, scarlets, etc do not survive thru subsequent years. You need to read that a few times a fully grasp the regeneration that can occur with a timber harvest.

There is high mortality of new seedlings, highest in the first 6 years of a seedlings life. Few seedlings survive without dying back and spouting at least once.
Seedlings , especially white oaks, can survive up to 50 years beneath a canopy by dying and resprouting repeatedly. Pretty amazing, huh?
This is possible by the large number of buds that develop on the seedling along the ground. Near the base of these seedlings is a large number of buds that are formed in the rudimentary leaves. These leaves look like tiny hairs. The buds of the leaf axil which may remain suppressed for many years, and the three buds in the axil of each cotyledon , form a reservoir of buds for repeated spouting of shoots.
When the top of a seedling dies, the suppressed buds then grow as a replacement.
These buds are below surface of the soil thus are protected from harm.
Thus these characteristics allow an oak seedling to survive despite destruction of the tops from animals, insects , disease, logging, and fire. This is how seedlings accumulate beneath the canopy of the forests.

Now as you cruise your forests, do as I have always suggested, get your head out of the clouds, and get down on your knees and investigate the plant and animal kingdom that lies beneath your trampling feet. Bet you will be amazed. Indeed that massive oak and its resulting Mighty Acorns it produces, might have begun as a sprout 50 years before it actually began to grow into what would become that mature tree. Thus that heavy acorn producing oak that is 50-75 yo, that you love so much for your deer herd, may actually be another 50 years older. Enjoy.
 
I agree with the RH part to a point but here in Oklahoma our highest rainfall total year ever was 2015 and our most prolific acorn year for white oak acorns was the fall of 2015 on 2 different properties I hunt. On one of those properties it had been 10 years since we got any white oak acorns but all of the white oak trees are in a bottom between ridges and is a notorious frost pocket. The rainfall from January 2015 - December 2015 was phenomenal and we had normal springtime temps without huge swings from abnormally hot to abysmally cold like we have all too often now...

On red oaks we have noticed the trees up on higher elevations in our mountainous type areas tend to have much better mast production than our trees in the bottoms on many different years. We have concluded temperature swings are less dramatic in the higher elevations as the cold of night is not settling on top of those hills like it is in the bottoms...

At my house this morning when I left home it was 43 degrees...2 miles and quite a bit of elevation change and it was 28...our other property is much lower elevation which is why fruit (and acorn) production is very spotty. I have only gotten apples once in almost 20 years of growing and acorns are just about as bad in that valley...
 
Okie, I agree for sure of oaks being similar to apples in that they do poorer in frost pockets. In any hilly terrain such as yours Okie we certainly see large variations of temps with sometimes just slight changes in elevation.
As for the rains you had, remember the pollination is just within a short 10 day period with reds doing so before whites. So perhaps your heavy acorn crop was the result of a few lucky windows with good variables to allow pollination to occur??
 
Good stuff. I have a pecan tree ( i know not an oak) but I have watched squirrels cherrypick through all the pecans on my tree throwing the bad ones down and eating all the good ones. Some years I don't get a single pecan as they pick them out. I wonder how well they pick through the good and bad acorns and what effect that has on new seedlings.Also, I wonder if deer have the same ability to "judge" good acorns from bad.
 
Charlieyca said:
Good stuff. I have a pecan tree ( i know not an oak) but I have watched squirrels cherrypick through all the pecans on my tree throwing the bad ones down and eating all the good ones. Some years I don't get a single pecan as they pick them out. I wonder how well they pick through the good and bad acorns and what effect that has on new seedlings.Also, I wonder if deer have the same ability to "judge" good acorns from bad.
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I do think animals can detect better or bad acorns and will be selective, especially with an abundant crop. And I do think there is some maturity than can occur after acorns and perhaps pecans drop that make them better with a little time.
Lets talk alittle about the squirrel since you brought that up. Acorns of reds are more fatty and have more tannic acid which makes them more bitter than the whites that have less fat and tannic. And if you remember, reds overwinter before germinating. Studies show show squirrels tend to eat whites when found, and if buried, tend to do so at the mother tree. The reds tend to buried in random areas thru the woods and retrieve thruout the year. Another thing of the reds, the squirrlel will remove the cap and often eat the top part, leaving the lower section. The lower section of the red is where the embryo is and where most the tannic acid. So the nut can still germanate later even tho it has been half eaten.
It has also been seen that squirrels only find a third of the nuts they hide. So such a simple process we observe each fall is really a complicated group of factors between plant and animal that work to keep our forests on a continual regrowth. Nature is always working to promote field or forest into the late successional stage that is prominant in a area, whether it be the grasslands of the plains or the hard or softwood forests of my area.
 
I'm glad I'm not the only one that watches the behavior of the squirrels. For a rodent, they can be pretty smart. Interesting that they eat the top less bitter half and the other half can still grow.
 
Charlieyca said:
I'm glad I'm not the only one that watches the behavior of the squirrels. For a rodent, they can be pretty smart. Interesting that they eat the top less bitter half and the other half can still grow.
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Yea did find that pretty amazing. Made my walk thru the woods last wk a little more observant of some different things.
 
Very interesting thread Dogghr. In the daylily beds we experience the wet pollen deal often. It can pour so hard that the days pollen can be gone in a few minutes. A slight shower can also come by in the morning just after the pollen is produced and with even a five minute shower the pollen is often ruined for the day. It gets all clumpy and can not even be spread by hand. And then when it dries it is just one hard mass--useless for its intended purpose. With a little bad luck it can rain on and off all week sometimes and one can hardly get viable pollen naturally during the entire week.

The rain effect damaging the pollen points out yet another value for diversity in our plantings. Presumably having different types of oaks (and or fruit trees) with their corresponding different bloom times reduces the odds of having all of the pollen wiped out by rain for a whole species.

On my property there are only a few red oaks and no whites. Since the white acorns germinate in the fall and the reds germinate in the spring does that mean that reds are more preferable for the properties with tough winters as the acorns are available to the deer all winter? Or do the deer still feed on the white acorns through the winter and if so do they still have the same beneficial nutrients in them even though they have already germinated? White oaks do grow in this area but I have not spent enough time on other properties to have answered this question. Of course its best to have both but still just wondering. Any thoughts on that?
 
Chainsaw said:
Very interesting thread Dogghr. In the daylily beds we experience the wet pollen deal often. It can pour so hard that the days pollen can be gone in a few minutes. A slight shower can also come by in the morning just after the pollen is produced and with even a five minute shower the pollen is often ruined for the day. It gets all clumpy and can not even be spread by hand. And then when it dries it is just one hard mass--useless for its intended purpose. With a little bad luck it can rain on and off all week sometimes and one can hardly get viable pollen naturally during the entire week.

The rain effect damaging the pollen points out yet another value for diversity in our plantings. Presumably having different types of oaks (and or fruit trees) with their corresponding different bloom times reduces the odds of having all of the pollen wiped out by rain for a whole species.

On my property there are only a few red oaks and no whites. Since the white acorns germinate in the fall and the reds germinate in the spring does that mean that reds are more preferable for the properties with tough winters as the acorns are available to the deer all winter? Or do the deer still feed on the white acorns through the winter and if so do they still have the same beneficial nutrients in them even though they have already germinated? White oaks do grow in this area but I have not spent enough time on other properties to have answered this question. Of course its best to have both but still just wondering. Any thoughts on that?
Click to expand...
That is a good comparison with you daylilly plot, Chain. And I agree diversity in plants of any type helps prevent failure of a fruit production.
As for the white acorns being plalatable and nutritional, I would suspect while they do provide food, the value of the nutrient level would be less as time goes by after dropping, simply because the nutrients of the nut are there to promote germination and growth and these sources would be at least somewhat used up as the acorn drops. Thus the red oak acorn, tho less tasty for the deer initially, may be able to maintain higher nutrient levels thru the winter.

Now your last paragraph and question…..we begin to delve very deep into a lot of factors affecting your observed findings of red and white, and for that matter , other oaks.
Before I go into that, do you or others have good explanation of such??? Just why are whites less prevalent in areas of the NE? Has that always been? Is it a predictor of our future? What say this above average intelligent manipulators of habitat that we have on this forum?? Thots? Hint… you know how much I love mature forests. I'll answer after some discussion if we have any.
 
dogghr said:
That is a good comparison with you daylilly plot, Chain. And I agree diversity in plants of any type helps prevent failure of a fruit production.
As for the white acorns being plalatable and nutritional, I would suspect while they do provide food, the value of the nutrient level would be less as time goes by after dropping, simply because the nutrients of the nut are there to promote germination and growth and these sources would be at least somewhat used up as the acorn drops. Thus the red oak acorn, tho less tasty for the deer initially, may be able to maintain higher nutrient levels thru the winter.

Now your last paragraph and question…..we begin to delve very deep into a lot of factors affecting your observed findings of red and white, and for that matter , other oaks.
Before I go into that, do you or others have good explanation of such??? Just why are whites less prevalent in areas of the NE? Has that always been? Is it a predictor of our future? What say this above average intelligent manipulators of habitat that we have on this forum?? Thots? Hint… you know how much I love mature forests. I'll answer after some discussion if we have any.
Click to expand...

On the massive scale of what happened to the giant white oaks of New England, the ship building industry that sprouted up along the New England coast in the 1700's used the mature white oak stands for building many hundreds of ships. Ships were in high demand for every manner of fishing and trade.What reduced the number of white oak saplings I don't know but suspect it could have been the gypsy moth which started its US population in Boston Massachusetts in the 1860's.

On the scale of this 600 acre property and possibly this whole town, this property was all pasture around seventy-five years ago having come from mostly all apple orchards with some woodlots 75 years before that. 75 years ago the trees of notice on this property consisted of about 1 old tulip tree, two red oak trees, a handful of small poplar and red cedar stands, a dozen sugar maple trees, a dozen each or so hickory trees, elm, ash and hemlock probably all kept for maybe their shade value. The properties suitable for tilling eventually were tilled for the budding dairy industry and still are tilled today. The pasture land was left to regenerate to the timber stands it has today.

The sugar maple and ash has really flourished on the better soils, the hickory has done well also and even the hemlock developed some nice stands. The two red oaks are still alive and have produced three or four red oak trees. Oak regeneration on fertile sites needs to be started many years like twenty before cutting all but two down. Apple trees regenerated very well.. Since there were no white oak trees left in the pastures and the white oak acorns do not stay viable but rather germinate each fall, and they are such slow growers that do not compete well with the faster growing trees here no white oaks grew.

Obviously I am not an oak guru--learned about the ship building in grammar school and saw the gypsy moth damage in Massachesetts and Connecticut when an outbreak of moths defoliated many thousands of oaks about twenty-five years ago. Some sections were hit in consecutive years and many oaks died then.
 
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^ ^ ^ ^ Very well said. You def touched on several major factors that many of us never have given thot to. Anyone else with ideas??
 
Further info

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ation_genus_of_the_east-central_United_States

Oaks_were_the_historical_foundation_genus_of_the_east-central_United_States

Historical composition of these species is not well comprehended,
despite research that has shown that American
chestnuts and pines generally were minor species in the oak dominated
region of the east-central US (Cogbill et al., 2002;
Suffling et al., 2003; Southgate, 2006).
Oaks were the foundation genus ove

Another article that chestnuts were never as important as claimed. Oaks were where the action was.

http://www.fs.fed.us/nrs/pubs/jrnl/2016/nrs_2016_thomas-vangundy_001.pdf

Reporter Bias was part of it.
 
Thanks for sharing, Shedder. I knew you guys would have knowledge to share. Funny tho of your turkey problem article, that this shows always a variety of interests. Oddly, all these groups complaining of the acorn problem also are contributors over decades/centuries of affecting oak populations by their actions also.

Quote from article…"The only friends of the wild turkeys appear to be the IFW biologists who introduced them and the turkey hunters who want another game source. Few, if any, landowners are in favor of large populations of wild turkeys. At a legislative hearing on a turkey hunting bill in 2013 a procession of orchardists, crop farmers, dairy farmers, blue berry growers and foresters testified strongly that wild turkeys are costing them heavily in lost profits. The only proponent was the IFW biologist!" Unquote.

Any others throw your thots into this discussion about the oak tree???
 
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Well I thot the thread was at its end with the discussion of the making of an acorn/oak tree. But Chainsaws question opens an interesting avenue of talk especially since most deer habitat managers are really interested in oak trees and their production and also their love of the white oak in particular.
Let me say as we look at history I pass no judgement on actions that were done, as society and its needs dictated those actions, which often noone understood some of the consequences that might occur. And perhaps the same can be said of many of us even today.
And make no bones about it, I am and will be guilty of blatant plagiarism as I try to share some of the info from various studies some going back more than a century.
Again, just some thots, and not black and white, so feel free to chime in.

First is a map of the native distribution of the white oak.
alba.jpg


Nearly half the country was and to some extent covered by white oak forests. Thru this discussion we will look at the loss of the white oak as the dominant tree in the eastern forests and the resulting influx of red and chestnut oak and the chestnut as dominant species. These determinations are made by study of history from detailed writings of early explorers, survey notations, and such. I think when we are done, you will look at your forests as they stand now and have perhaps a better picture of what was, and what might possibly be.
Some highlights of discussion…
Why did the white oak dominate the presettlement forests?
What restricted the red oak in those forests that it now dominates?
What role, if any, did humans play in expansion of the red and chestnut oaks?
Was the white oak more susceptible to changes that occurred over the last couple centuries?

The white oak dominated much of the forests at one time and is now anywhere form 30% less in my state to a high of 80+% reduction in the state of Indiana. Hopefully we can take what we learn and perhaps in someways use the knowledge in our manipulations from timbering to plantings.
Be patient, I'm limited on time and this may take a few weeks. Spend time as spring comes on observing your woodlots, and deer habits, and maybe even pay attention as the oak trees bloom to propagate the mighty acorn.
Should be a fun ride.
 
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