Some questions about white tail beahvior

[Andy1845c]

Hello all,
I signed up here to see if anyone could shed some light on some observations/issues ive been having with deer. I am not a hunter personally.

I ive in southern Minnesota, a mile from the edge of a city of approx 50k people and about a mile from the Minnesota river. Mankato MN if anyone is local or wants to look at a map.

I built my home about 6 years ago, and there have always been a lot of deer around, but this year they have increased dramatically in number and how bold they are. Part of the increase in number I attribute to the fact that it was a wet year and the river came up several times. I'd imagine that drove some deer to find higher ground, but since the river went down, none have seemed to have returned home.

Everyday I have between 8 and 10 does in the small bean/corn field behind my house and in my yard. They are there when I leave for work in the morning and usually there when I come home around 4. They are there until dark and usually after dark.

They hardly move unless I actively chase them out, and even then just run to the edge of the treeline and watch me. As soon as I leave they come right back and resume grazing.

Does this seem normal? Do other here have similar issues? My landscape plants have been destroyed this year, I put up the most elaborate electric fence ive ever put around my vegetables and they still got in and damaged a bunch of stuff, there is feces EVERYWHERE in my lawn and I can hardly chase them away. Hunting is fairly popular around here. Several people hunt my land and get deer most years but they seem to be worse every year.

Questions - Are does more bold than bucks? I almost never see bucks.

- Why do does bunch up in winter? Protection from coyotes? They seemed to do this earlier then normal this fall.

-Are these bunches generally nomadic? Other years it has seemed like I would see a bunch for a few days then be left alone for a while. This group has been around daily for months.

-What do does fear? Cars, machinery, honking horns, gunshots in the air, human scent, smoke just seem to mildly inconvenience them or have no effect at all.

Living in the country as a gardener I know I will always have a level of deer damage to contend with, but this lately is insane. I'd love to figure out how to make my property less appealing to them. There are 1000's of acres of bean fields around here. Many far quieter than mine. I don't understand why they don't graze those.

Thoughts comments and questions would be awesome.

 

[Chipdasqrrl]

1. The activity you described about the deer coming right back after scaring them off is due to the deer deciding that you’re not a threat to them. They might’ve gotten scared off a little more the first few times you chased them off, but figured out that you’re not out to get them. They see you and think “oh, it’s just that guy again. Just leave for a minute and he’ll go away.”
2. I’d say that does are more bold than bucks. Could be due to the fact that they travel together so they feel safer to come out in the daylight.
3. I’d say part of the reason they bunch up is for protection. Other than that, having a larger group of deer makes better trails through the snow, so they won’t have to spend as much energy traveling through snow
4. I’d say the deer will generally stick to where the food is plentiful
5. Does fear things that they have learned to associate with danger. Does will feed along side porcupines and squirrels, but if porcupines and squirrels suddenly began to attack them then they would develop a fear of them. As for smells, they will develop a fear of a smell if they learn to associate it with something dangerous. Deer living in unhunted residential areas will not be afraid of human scent, but deer living in the big woods that are hunted by humans will learn that human scent means danger.
6. As far as keeping them out of your yard, that’s a tough one. I’ll let someone else answer that one


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[Native Hunter]

Are does more bold than bucks? I almost never see bucks. Yes they are.

Why do does bunch up in winter? It's just natural for them to do this. They find more safety in numbers. It's harder for a predator to sneak up on a group of deer without being noticed, and pushing through the snow is easier if you follow other deer.

Are these bunches generally nomadic? Other years it has seemed like I would see a bunch for a few days then be left alone for a while. This group has been around daily for months. Doe family groups can be nomadic, but if they find everything they want in a certain location, they may not move much. Food, water and cover are the most important factors.

What do does fear? Cars, machinery, honking horns, gunshots in the air, human scent, smoke just seem to mildly inconvenience them or have no effect at all. They fear death, but in an area where hunting pressure is low, they adapt to the conditions and have little fear. Even if you make them afraid to come out in daylight, they will still be out destroying your property at night.

Living in the country as a gardener I know I will always have a level of deer damage to contend with, but this lately is insane. I'd love to figure out how to make my property less appealing to them. There are 1000's of acres of bean fields around here. Many far quieter than mine. I don't understand why they don't graze those. Those other fields are probably being used too. My guess is that there are many doe family groups around, and each will carve out their territories. These areas can overlap too.

You need to understand that your problem is not what is happening only on your property. Your property is just one small piece of the surrounding puzzle. You live near a city where hunting pressure is low compared to lots of other places. Yet, the habitat in the general area is great for deer, and under these conditions they will thrive and multiply to the point of overpopulation.

Unfortunately for you, even if you intensified the hunting on your land, it wouldn't make much difference, unless it also happened on many of the surrounding properties. In your case, for every doe you take out, there will be another one to fill the hole in a short time. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you need to know the facts.

By the way - welcome to the forum.

 

[swat1018]

Deer probably are using the beans. Deer don't graze, but browse. Deer won't live on a monoculture of beans, but prefer to eat many different plants. Google Gallagher Deer Fence, if you haven't. It's pretty good at keeping deer out of gardens, etc. A single fence doesn't work well, they just hop over. I'd buy a bow and start having fun, although I don't know your regs. Many areas have programs where you can donate the meat to the needy at no or little cost to you. You could also contact your local Conservation Officer, there are probably damage permits that you could be issued. The only thing that will help you is if they know they aren't safe there.

 

[dogghr]

Obviously deer can become quite tame. I never hunt around the acreage at my house. Buck and doe will stand and let me walk within yards of them. They have plenty of natural foods, but love the shrubs and gardens around houses. And you prob have some good clover in your yard with no threats. Around here, if you want deer out of a garden, it requires an 8 ft fence.
As for landscape shrubs, you can choose some that deer don't prefer. For flowers and other shrubs, you mix 1/3 milk with 2/3 water in spray bottle and spray those weekly. Works better than anything I've seen. Milk can be anytype, fresh or curdled.
I've actually been asked more than once to come hunt deer on peoples property where they have become a nuisance. It's a problem for many.

 

[Chainsaw]

Welcome to the forum Andy. I second what swat18's recommendation regarding Gallagher fence. I raise an acre of daylilies and without the double gallagher fence design it would not be possible. The double fencing works to keep them out.If you have any questions on the fence setup feel free to ask. You may have most of what you need already to set up the fence Gallagher style.

 

[j-bird]

Welcome to the urban deer issue. This issue is happening all over the country. The deer are essentially protected because in an urban environment they can't be effectively hunted to control the population. Places have brought in professional sharpshooters with guns. Some have tried to sterilize the deer to keep them from reproducing. And many have tried to find a way to legalize hunting them (mostly with archery equipment).

Legal hunting is fairly ineffective because it can't/isn't of the scale needed to address the issue (take more deer than the reproduction rate will replenish to ultimately drive the population down). First of all many urban land/home owners don't want a hunter in the back yard. Secondly, even if the landowner allows you to hunt, in an urban setting the deer will run when shot with an arrow. That could be only a few yards or 100 yards or even more. So now the hunter has to contend with various neighbors (favorable to hunting or not) about tracking or recovering his deer...and they legally can keep him from entering their property. So then law enforcement gets involved. For me personally this is a big enough issue that I won't do it. Hunters tend to be more and more frowned upon in society as it is. I can't image having to knock on the door of a neighbor, making them get up from the dinner table, to find out they are anti-hunting and they are pitching a fit about the blood or the dead deer in the back yard. Or having to do all of this with the lights from a police cruiser flashing in the background. I don't need that, the image of hunters doesn't need that. I have opportunities to hunt in an urban setting, but I fear I will simply do far more harm than good.

I think we all want to see the numbers controlled, rural or urban. However, the means to accomplish it on a wide spread enough basis seems to be a constant struggle at the moment especially on the urban side of the coin.

 

[Andy1845c]

Thanks for all the replies! Wow!

I have not heard of the gallagher fence. I googled it and will go read more after posting this. This past year I put up a standard single electric fence with the tall T posts. I put 5 wires on it and figured that would keep most out. And it helped but once temptation got too much they were just ducking though the wires to get in. I never saw any jump over. One of my issues is I like a fence I can take down in the fall so I can plow the garden with a tractor.
Ive actually considered investing in fencing off a much larger section of my property but haven't decided if thats practical yet. In the next 5 years id like to take a few of my tillable acres out of corn and beans and plant fruit trees or something. What I decide to do there will depend a lot on how I can control the deer.

I've never heard of the DNR issuing damage permits. I've also never asked or researched it. I don't have much interest in hunting them but have friends that would probably come out if that was possible. But as was stated I don't know that enough could be harvested to make an impact. I am not close enough to town to have the issues j-bird outlined, but he makes some extremely valid points. when you do get to the edge of town here its a lot of ravine lots. I can just imagine everything he describes happening if they opened the ravines up to hunting, yet there are major deer problems there too.

I've heard of the home made deer repellent. The recipe I have uses eggs. I have noticed they don't touch our compost pile at all and thats got a lot of egg shells and coffee grounds in it. I saved all the excess hot peppers from the garden this year and dried them to grind into deer repellent in the summer too. I'm willing to try some of this but don't want to be 100% dependent on constantly spraying everything. It can rain a lot here and it sounds exhausting to have to fret about finding time to keep my plants drenched in putrid slime 24/7.

I've tried to come up with a way to make them have some trepidation about coming in the yard but I can't come up with anything as of yet.

I researched ultrasonic repellers after hearing about a friends dog who was terrified after the neighbors started using one, but the reading I did lead me to believe the range deer hear in is not greatly different from our own and these aren't effective for deer.

I guess lasers can be effective for birds, but I found research online saying they were ineffective for deer.

I know people that use those propane boomers to scare birds off their grapes, but A) my neighbors would hate me, and B) the deer here don't react much to shotgun blasts, so I am fairly certain they would become acclimated to the noise rather quickly.

I looked into paintballs (I know, not legal or ethical) and the range is so short and keeping a CO2 paintball gun at the ready isn't practical. I don't really know what else I could shoot at them that isn't illegal or inhumane.

I think a big farm dog that loves to chase deer would be ideal, but we aren't dog people and I am close to a road and a walking trail, so for that reason alone a loose dog isn't practical.

Hypothetically, what makes them associate fear? HYTPOTHETICALLY! If i were to take a rifle and shoot one, would the ones that didn't die become fearful? I don't feel like they would but now I am very curious about this in general. How animals come to associate danger.
I get woodchucks in my woodpiles pretty much annually. 50% of the time I can't even get close enough to them to get a shot off before they see me and bolt into the pile. But 90% of the time I see one I am after it with a gun. They don't get much chance to assume I am not a threat.

How much impact do coyotes have on the deer population? I hear them less and less at night. Maybe also part of the problem?

 

[Laker]

Get a dog and teach it to chase deer.

 

[swat1018]

About the only thing deer fear are humans that kill deer. Coyotes are a threat at fawning time and on yearling deer, but with a herd as you describe, they aren't going to do much. Plus, they are safer from coyotes there in your yard, than elsewhere. I would look into what ways you can legally kill them, and start getting them killed. Many hunters would love the opportunity.

 

[Laker]

I'm serious, get a Jack Russell.

 

[Andy1845c]

A dog adds its own set of problems as I stated above, but I do think it would be a perfect solution for some.

I did a bunch of googling tonight and I can't find anything about kill permits for deer in Minnesota. Maybe I will contact a conservation office and ask but legal killing seems unlikely.

 

[TheOldOak]

Hypothetically, what makes them associate fear? HYTPOTHETICALLY! If i were to take a rifle and shoot one, would the ones that didn't die become fearful? I don't feel like they would but now I am very curious about this in general. How animals come to associate danger.
Answer: Shooting one of them would probably make the others leave for a short time, maybe a week or two, or make them go 100% nocturnal. You would probably need to shoot several of them over a 2-3 week period to do any good, and they would likely be back within 2 weeks once you stop hunting them. Agree with other commenters though, there are many hunters that would love the opportunity to bowhunt around your place. Once someone starts hunting them, you will see a lot less of them, even if temporarily. Longer term the only way to fix the issue is to reduce the population on your property and surrounding properties, that may not be realistic as some neighbors enjoy seeing them.

 

[Oakseeds]

A very inexpensive potential solution that is worth a try. Get 2 empty plastic cat litter cartons (around 3 gal in size with lids screwed on tightly) and PRACTICE slamming them together repeatedly; wait until it is 15 minutes after sundown at your location (will be about half way between dusk and dark) and go out your front door and ease your way to the back edge of your house. As you start running furiously toward the center of your yard, bang the cartons together (they make one heck of a racket ... good hard pops are somewhat like a gun report - if people hunt your area, they should be familiar with gunshots) as hard as you can and yell loudly. Repeat as needed and they may become uncomfortable/annoyed and move on. Otherwise, if you are somewhat isolated (no close neighbors), borrow a shotgun, wait until dark (30 mins after sundown) and fire the weapon into the air/safe backstop 3 times ... that should move them out! Repeat as needed; the noise and muzzle flash should do the trick. Persistence is a virtue.

 

[MattJK]

Lots of good and some fun ideas.

I'd suggest improvements to fencing. I use t posts and 5' garden fence. Theoretically they can jump it but seldom will jump into a confined space. I also tear down and re set fence every year. This fence could be topped with a single wire, with fishing line (with old CDs, plastic strips or other visual flags), or with cheap caution tape.

A scarecrow can be effective especially if it is moved regularly. Wind chimes or other wind socks can help.

Have you tried any scents? Cheap perfume, human hair from a barber shop, blood meal.

 

[Bowriter]

What you are seeing is perfectly normal. As deer habitat shrinks, they become increasingly common in the suburbs. Add to that, if they have sufficient food, most does past age 2.5 will have twins. You can do the math. I have had as many as 28-in my yard at one time. Please, do not feed them. That makes it worse.

In terms of fencing them out of an area, it needs to be a high fence and strong. I know of no scent or product that will keep them out long.

 

[Mennoniteman]

Here's a cheap solution that the game wardens gave my dad years ago that actually works if allowed in your area; (these are airborne screamers and exploders equivalent to an M80 fired with a plastic pistol) that guaranteed will put the fear of death into your deer, a few episodes and that group will not be back for a long time.
Travels 30m (90') downrange and explodes with a loud report, scaring wildlife out of the control area. Second option; accoustic bird and bear deterrent. Produces a loud screeching noise over 75m (250'). Now with booster holes.
https://www.margosupplies.com/usa/single-shot-launcher