soil test results...

David

Active Member
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These three samples were taken from the same field. The field is 3 acres and each sample was taken on one acre of the plot.

First off, if anyone has any recommendations in general based on what you see please let me know. I am going to continue to work on the pH and low Phosphorus numbers.

soil samples.jpg
My main question is this.....Above shows the 3 sections with the appropriate sample #. Sample #3 has produced the best results....Sample #4 and 5 have a much better pH although both are low in phosphorus.....however they have shown poor to moderate growth in the plots. What else should i be looking at? )This was a cattle pasture for 30 years until around 1990, at which point it was simply mowed once every other year.) The actual soil in those sections is basically read clay. It gets quite hard in the summer. There is almost no top soil left. Its quite difficult to disc due to the hardness.

Do i need to break out the old two row plow and turn it over?

second question....what do i do about the high K levels?

thanks

David
 
I would break it for sure preferably with a subsoiler. Then I would focus on the phosphorus deficiency. You may want to resample to see if the low pH sample was just a bad sample. pH from other areas look ok


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I would break it for sure preferably with a subsoiler. Then I would focus on the phosphorus deficiency. You may want to resample to see if the low pH sample was just a bad sample. pH from other areas look ok


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Thanks....I feel I was conditioned against breaking up the ground too much. I have read so much on no till, throw and mow, cover crops etc. Watched alot of ray Archuleta videos and got scared from plowing.

I have is big 2 row plowboard that I have never used. It's pretty big don't know the size. Also have a pretty aggressive disc and 9 shank chisel plow. The latter two have a tough time in this soil.




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I'm not suggesting you go out and buy one of these. It's just to make a point.
https://www.myteeproducts.com/agrat...MI0KbU7Ky42QIVAkwNCh0PLw7gEAQYASABEgLcq_D_BwE

Do you have soil compaction? Or, some other issue? If you do have compaction I don't think the moldboard plow is going to help you much. Some soils just have limitations. That's why it was pasture. Then it was just mowed in an era of high beef prices? It would be interesting to see the soil types.

Slope?
 
To be honest I don't know much about soil compaction. It's not seen many tractors or trucks.

Like.many southern soils it has probably lost considerable top soil. There are water bars in all the fields. You can see one in the sat image snaking horizontally. As a result there is no noticeable erosion.

Just wonder why one side of a three acre field can produce cow peas and beans that are 6 feet tall, while the other side is 24 inches.....and quite homely.

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just an example....this is an average turnip

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....and this was a big one for this side of the plot. you can see the ground in the picture, its not very lush.
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And this is discking after my controlled burn, it wasn't quite as tough to break the ground after a burn and rain.
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I'd get another soil test first, at least on your bad spots. Get complete base saturation numbers as well as sulfur and CEC. $30 would be well spent before you start putting more money into fixing it.

A buffer pH of 7.5 does not jive with a clay soil.
 
Mark,

this is the third year i have soil tested. over the years, i have tested 13 different singular areas on my farm. The buffer pH is always in the 7.5 range. here are two copies of the past years #s.

so back to the original picture, i want higher yields from area #4 and 5. My exclusion cages in those areas are not over grown. yes deer are browsing there, but its not like the cages show an extreme difference.

my spring plan as of now is to plant buck wheat to cover the ground before i can begin an LC mix later this summer.

upload_2018-2-22_9-16-20.png

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will try it this weekend....help me with the term hard pan. in what i have read about soils (plotting books) its from repeated heavy tractor use. i imagine i might have a "hard pan" on the roads that i exclusively drive on, but these are not planted in plots. The field in question recieves very little tractor/truck use.

my bet is that this land was once a cotton farm, then the boll weevil and low prices came and knocked that out. The result was incredibly awful erosion.....now specific to this land in question is that there really isn't classic signs of major erosion. no big washout gullies, and there is actually top soil there....maybe recreated over the years and not a lot of it, but its there. I will check the deeper soil profile this weekend.
 
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David I can show you almost identical soil samples from just down the road in Fairfield County. Here are a few thoughts based on what I've learned over the last 8-10 years along with advice I have gotten from these boards and how it has turned out.

First off, you have to remember what we are working with here. The red clay we have is not really topsoil, it was the subsoil that was buried under 6-12" of topsoil before colonization. It is a kaolin clay which is different from clays found in other parts of the country. The bedrock under the clay is granite. So we end up with some situations that are somewhat unique when compared to other parts of the country. I say that, because some of the recommendations that are very much appropriate in other areas are not necessarily what will bring about better production from our soils.

Second, it would be helpful to see the next block down on your soil test. Click on the LabNum and it will take you to a full printout of your soil test. It should have your base saturation. That will include your CEC and also what the total saturation is. That is where you are going to be able to see the biggest change in your soil as you go forward. Also, spring for the organic matter in your test. It's an extra $5 but will help you see what goes on over a few years.

It is interesting to me that your pH, Ca and Mg dropped from 2016 - 2017. I wonder if you did some deep tillage soon after your 2016 samples or if you maybe pulled samples from a deeper soil horizon in 2017. When did you apply your lime and what was the tillage regime since applying the lime? What type of lime did you apply?

Irregardless of all of that - here is what I know about working in our red clay. It actually can be pretty dang good ground, but it takes a lot of amendment and it takes time. Make sure you are using calcium carbonate (ag lime). Don't focus just on the pH. You need to also be looking at raising the CEC and the base saturation. Remember, CEC is the soils ability to retain nutrients, so a low CEC with a great pH isn't going to retain nutrients the way a higher CEC soil with great pH will.

How do you help CEC? Organic matter my friend. That is why you want to be getting OM in your soil tests. Manure works great on our soils (cow and poultry). If you can get it - choose manure over synthetic fertilizers. You'll raise your P levels, and help your OM. Also, don't sweat the high K levels. That is a nuance of our kaolin clay soils and I still think you need to add a little bit of K in your fertilizer to be taken up by your next crop.

Aside from manure; take advantage of our long growing season and grow grasses. I would forget buckwheat. It comes up quick, looks great and then gets absolutely smoked in our summers. I know they say it mellows the soil, but there just isn't much to a buckwheat plant and when it is wilted down to nothing and gets rendered back to the soil you can't even tell there was anything grown there. Plus you are going to find that we have quite a few weeds that do well in our soil over the summer, and they have no problem pushing buckwheat out of the way and making a good run for it over the summer.

What I have found works best is to spend the summer growing a grass/grain crop like sorghum, pearl millet, or sudangrass. It isn't the most fun thing to grow over the summer, but it handles our summers very well and produces a lot of biomass. One thing I have learned through all of this, biomass above ground is good, but biomass (roots) below ground is great. I also think it helps control weeds because it shades the ground pretty well.

I don't do a whole lot of tillage, but I find that I have to do some because of how our soils crust. The way I follow the LC rotations I use my brassica planting as the primary opportunity to apply amendments. I put down 200#/acre of pelletized lime along with the full recommendation from the soil test for brassicas. The summer grain crop and the fall cereal grain / clover get minimal fertilizer applications and minimal tillage.

Since sticking to a routine of building organic matter by growing a high biomass grass crop during the summer, I've seen the best improvements in my soil tests across the board. pH is still hovering in the 6.5 range, but my CEC's have gotten up in the double digits and I can definitely see an improvement in the quality of crops.

The last thing I'll mention for now - regarding the size of the brassicas and the discrepancy across the field - there are a lot of other possible issues. What is moisture like across the field, or soil depth? What time of year were the brassicas planted? One thing that stands out when I look at your map, the area that does the best, also receives the most shade from the afternoon sun - again, heat and moisture stress?
 
David I can show you almost identical soil samples from just down the road in Fairfield County. Here are a few thoughts based on what I've learned over the last 8-10 years along with advice I have gotten from these boards and how it has turned out.

First off, you have to remember what we are working with here. The red clay we have is not really topsoil, it was the subsoil that was buried under 6-12" of topsoil before colonization. It is a kaolin clay which is different from clays found in other parts of the country. The bedrock under the clay is granite. So we end up with some situations that are somewhat unique when compared to other parts of the country. I say that, because some of the recommendations that are very much appropriate in other areas are not necessarily what will bring about better production from our soils.

Second, it would be helpful to see the next block down on your soil test. Click on the LabNum and it will take you to a full printout of your soil test. It should have your base saturation. That will include your CEC and also what the total saturation is. That is where you are going to be able to see the biggest change in your soil as you go forward. Also, spring for the organic matter in your test. It's an extra $5 but will help you see what goes on over a few years.

It is interesting to me that your pH, Ca and Mg dropped from 2016 - 2017. I wonder if you did some deep tillage soon after your 2016 samples or if you maybe pulled samples from a deeper soil horizon in 2017. When did you apply your lime and what was the tillage regime since applying the lime? What type of lime did you apply?

Irregardless of all of that - here is what I know about working in our red clay. It actually can be pretty dang good ground, but it takes a lot of amendment and it takes time. Make sure you are using calcium carbonate (ag lime). Don't focus just on the pH. You need to also be looking at raising the CEC and the base saturation. Remember, CEC is the soils ability to retain nutrients, so a low CEC with a great pH isn't going to retain nutrients the way a higher CEC soil with great pH will.

How do you help CEC? Organic matter my friend. That is why you want to be getting OM in your soil tests. Manure works great on our soils (cow and poultry). If you can get it - choose manure over synthetic fertilizers. You'll raise your P levels, and help your OM. Also, don't sweat the high K levels. That is a nuance of our kaolin clay soils and I still think you need to add a little bit of K in your fertilizer to be taken up by your next crop.

Aside from manure; take advantage of our long growing season and grow grasses. I would forget buckwheat. It comes up quick, looks great and then gets absolutely smoked in our summers. I know they say it mellows the soil, but there just isn't much to a buckwheat plant and when it is wilted down to nothing and gets rendered back to the soil you can't even tell there was anything grown there. Plus you are going to find that we have quite a few weeds that do well in our soil over the summer, and they have no problem pushing buckwheat out of the way and making a good run for it over the summer.

What I have found works best is to spend the summer growing a grass/grain crop like sorghum, pearl millet, or sudangrass. It isn't the most fun thing to grow over the summer, but it handles our summers very well and produces a lot of biomass. One thing I have learned through all of this, biomass above ground is good, but biomass (roots) below ground is great. I also think it helps control weeds because it shades the ground pretty well.

I don't do a whole lot of tillage, but I find that I have to do some because of how our soils crust. The way I follow the LC rotations I use my brassica planting as the primary opportunity to apply amendments. I put down 200#/acre of pelletized lime along with the full recommendation from the soil test for brassicas. The summer grain crop and the fall cereal grain / clover get minimal fertilizer applications and minimal tillage.

Since sticking to a routine of building organic matter by growing a high biomass grass crop during the summer, I've seen the best improvements in my soil tests across the board. pH is still hovering in the 6.5 range, but my CEC's have gotten up in the double digits and I can definitely see an improvement in the quality of crops.

The last thing I'll mention for now - regarding the size of the brassicas and the discrepancy across the field - there are a lot of other possible issues. What is moisture like across the field, or soil depth? What time of year were the brassicas planted? One thing that stands out when I look at your map, the area that does the best, also receives the most shade from the afternoon sun - again, heat and moisture stress?
Thanks so much....I am gonna read through this a few times.

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Longleaf.....what do you do with your warm season grass plots (millet, sorghum etc) in august/september? How do they fit into the LC rotation?

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So I have done a couple different things driven by equipment availability, timing, weather etc. My "plan" looks like this: In early August I go into the areas that I am going to plant brassicas and mow the summer grain crop. I then watch how it does over the next two weeks. If I get a fair amount of regrowth I go ahead and spray with glyphosate. Sometimes the mowing does a good enough job of killing the grain crop and smothering any weed growth. Around the middle to 3rd week of August I go ahead and broadcast my fertilizer and lime and disc it in. I'm putting down a heavy fertilizer recommendation for the brassicas based off the highest value in my soil test. So for example, last year I had a plot that my soil test recommended 80# N, 50# P, 50 # K for brassicas. I went ahead and put down 400# of 19-19-19.

This is also the heaviest tillage and soil ammending I do, and by following the rotation it happens every other year. I usually end up with about 30-50% of the thatch visible.

I drag a piece of 6" cast iron pipe behind my disc which does a pretty good job of leveling and firming up the seedbed. Then I broadcast my brassica seeds down on top and go back over it holding the disc blades up off the soil but dragging that pipe. That helps push the radish seeds in the dirt to keep the birds from finding them but doesn't bury the seed too deep.

I do 5# of daikon radish, 3# of purple top turnip and 2# of dwarf essex rape per acre. Of course the best thing is if I catch a 1/2" or so of rain right after that. Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. If the brassicas come up really thin I used to go in and add more brassica seed, but what I have found is that after several years of doing the rotation, there is enough clover seed in the seed bank that if my brassicas are really thin, the crimson and arrowleaf clover will fill in the gaps.

Then with the cereal grain and clover portions of the mix what I do is start watching the weather at the first of September. When I see a decent chance of rain I will go in and broadcast my cereal rye/oats/winter peas mixed with about 100#/acre of 34-0-0 and 50#/acre 0-46-0. I don't add any K at this point because we have such high levels of K in the soil test already. I use a 12v spreader that is mounted on the front of the tractor with the disc hooked up behind. This way the bigger seed and fertilizer get put down through the standing summer grain and then the disc knocks the standing grain down, cuts it up and puts a little bit of soil on top. If you run over the standing grain with a 3pt spreader first, you can see later on where the stalks that were mashed by the tractor and seed broadcast on top reduced seed to soil contact.

I usually have the angle on my disc gangs set about halfway, and I'm dragging the pipe behind the disc. I then go back and broadcast my clover seed, adjust my disc angle to 0 and run over the strip one last time and I try to stagger about 1/2 a tractor width over from my first pass to cut a little more of the crust under the thatch. At that point, the strip has about 90% coverage of the ground with thatch and most of the seed is under the thatch and sitting in or on top of soil that has just the top layer of crust broken up.

I planted one year with a no-till drill and just ran over the standing sorghum in mid September. That worked awesome but I don't have the ability to get that drill every year.

What I find is that the first rain that I get helps to push remaining seed down through the thatch and into contact with the ground, and the thatch helps hold the moisture near the ground. I've also noticed that when we start getting a dew at night, the thatch helps increase the amount of dew that forms near the seed and I am fully convinced some years the dew has been enough to germinate much of the seed and keep it going in those early weeks. You know how we get those cool clear nights with high humidity but it never seems to be enough to make it rain the next day.

One thing that happens by doing this, I get some volunteer grain (sorghum, millet) that comes up especially in my cereal grain/clover areas. It gets killed by the first frost, and I don't think it hurts anything, but I will say my plots, especially the cereal grain and clover are not very "pretty" in the fall. There is plenty of food there, but there is a lot of thatch and if I have a lot of volunteer sprouting from the summer grain, it looks pretty "hairy". I've wondered how much that volunteer growth hurts me from competing for the limited moisture, but it seems by the time December rolls around it has all worked itself out and I have a pretty thick stand of rye, oats and clover.

So I let all of that roll until the next spring. As soon as turkey season is over, I go into the areas I planted brassicas and broadcast my summer grains and 100# of 34-0-0, run over it once with the disc and drag and let it go. I like to leave my cereal grain and clover strips until late June so the clover has a chance to set seed and the turkeys also use these for bugging areas with the new poults. Around the end of June, first of July though I broadcast the summer grain, fertilizer and run over it once with the disc and drag and then let that go. I will also add here, this planting only lasts about a month before I am prepping it to plant the brassicas. I have wondered how much this is really benefiting. This year I'm going to try letting it go until mid-August and see if I can just disc it under rather than mowing it in early August to have it dry down.

Of course the other part of the LC Mix is the white clover. I don't put white clover in every one of my smaller plots like LC talked about doing. I think it is a good idea if you can, but on my plots that are 1/4- 1/2 acre it is just too tight to get in there with my equipment to manage it. So I dedicate a few of my plots to be just clover. I start them off in the fall with the cereal grain portion of the LC rotation, then I spray the rye and oats in late March and overseed them with Alyce clover. Alyce is a summer sweet clover and it does really well for me when overseeded into white clover. Also - on the white clovers, I have recently switched from using Durana to Louisiana S-1. I have had much better success with the Louisiana S-1 persisting in our summers. It has out-performed Durana for me by a significant margin. I overseed my clover patches each March with Alyce at the same time I spray Clethodim to get the cool season grasses. I then go back and spray Clethodim again in July to get the summer grasses that have come up. I usually don't have to mow for broadleaves because the Alyce clover helps shade out the broadleaves pretty well - plus I just don't sweat the summer broadleaves in clover like I used to.

That's been my "plan" for the last 5-6 years and it has been working out pretty well. Like I say, the biggest improvements I can see are in my CEC and total base saturation. I'm seeing significantly higher Ca levels, pH seems to hold around 6.5. I still have "red clay" that will crust over and crack in the summer, but I can certainly tell a difference in the areas where I have more organic matter and thatch.
 
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That must be some unique type soil. I've never seen a buffer over 7. I will respectfully bow out of this one given I've got no idea about what you guys are dealing with. One idea I'll offer is this, in normal clay soils, gypsum can help reduce crusting. Until things get under control, I might look at building a plotting program around a full season crop of rye and fall plot into the chopped residue. Let the rye go until it heads out and then spray kill it, broadcast your fall plot seed, and then flail mow it all down on top of your seed. Should help ya save moisture, build OM, and provide a nice greenhouse to germinate your seed.

Don't know if that'll work down there, but seems to be a good system most places.
 
To all who have replied.....thank you. I'm sitting by the fire at the farm now trying to digest this. Listening to coyotes and owls. I am going to re-read all of this many times.



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