Small Grains - how much is enough... or too much?

[Brian]

I was on the verge of a full-blown hijack of Fl Plotters thread and thought it was a good idea to start a new thread. Bottom line, I need some advice and guidance on planting rates!

First some background: I own 160 acres in SW Mississippi and planted my first plots in the fall of 2014, so I’m new to all of this. I have two primary plots, one is an acre and the other ½ acres plus a couple of smaller “pocket” plots. For the past 3 years I’ve planted a 50/50 mix of wheat and oats at 100-115#/ac. As I mentioned in another thread, I’m trying to build up my soil so I’m planning to substitute rye for wheat in the mix this year. I seeded clover (12# crimson and 4# arrowleaf per acre) in both plots 2 years ago; the larger feild established well and has reliably reseeded in the larger plot but the clover just didn’t take in the 1/2 acre plot. I will be broadcasting clover in the ½ acre plot this fall (our planting season is just starting) and also adding 4# chicory and 5# brassicas (3# of radishes and 2# rape) to both plots. (Those are all per-acre rates).

Most of the published sources I see recommend planting small grains at 50-60# an acre. Although I’m doubling that my plots are heavily utilized – the smaller plot stays eaten to the ground all winter and the 1 acre plot never gets above 6” or so until spring. I’ve been hesitant to experiment with lower seeding rates; I don’t get to hunt as much as I would like and I’m concerned the plots will get eaten out before the season ends on Jan. 30. On the other side of the coin, I can’t say that the amount of wheat and oats I planted wasn’t the cause of my clover failure in the ½ acre plot.

Here's my plan as of now: because of the addition of brassicas I was planning to cut back a bit, to 50# rye and 35# oats (per acre), with the thought that the oats will die before spring (although I’m pretty far south, I **think** my oats are getting winter killed) and the rye will be thin enough to not hinder the clover and chicory. What I’m trying to find is that sweet spot of enough small grains to keep my plots productive all winter without choking out the clover and chicory in the spring and summer, and I really need some guidance as to whether I’m on the right track!

 

[Baker]

It's an interesting question and I will be interested in what the pundits have to say. I am planting 120lbs/acre straight rye in a few of my larger food plots with the goal being soil improvement and thatch for soybeans to be drilled to next spring.

 

[Mennoniteman]

Clover is a crop that grows in very poor dirt, and doesn't require a lot of nutrients, so I don't think the problem was that the small grain took all the nutrients away from it. The most common reason for clover to fail is too much bare dirt/ no nurse crop, so for this reason I think if anything, you want to seed the small grain heavier. The deer wiping out the grain in midwinter and leaving the newly seeded clover overexposed is probably why it failed.

 

[dogghr]

Ive played around with various amts and my perfect for a cover crop is 50#/ac. Gives good nurse crop, and doesn't shade out following summer. I just let it die naturally whether rotation or perenial plot. Now if I'm overseeding in to a failed plot as I did into brassica last nov after a 3 mo drought, then I go heavier at 100#. Of course on any planting, I have a mix of seeds included as I never do monoculture anymore. In my area, WR and RC will grow on a brick wall.

 

[shawn cox]

For your 1/2 acre plot you are way over seeding it if you are put 50 lbs of rye and 30 lbs of wheat along with the clover AND 4 lbs of chicory and 5 lbs of brassicas. your brassicas are probably going to make it a moot point to even try to plant the clover I would think they would shade out the clover. For a 1/2 acre I would plant 50 lbs of rye and skip the oats and add the clover and maybe a pound of chicory at most.

 

[Brian]

Clover is a crop that grows in very poor dirt, and doesn't require a lot of nutrients, so I don't think the problem was that the small grain took all the nutrients away from it. The most common reason for clover to fail is too much bare dirt/ no nurse crop, so for this reason I think if anything, you want to seed the small grain heavier. The deer wiping out the grain in midwinter and leaving the newly seeded clover overexposed is probably why it failed.

I have to be honest- since I'm so far above the planting rates you see recommended it literally never dawned on me that I might be planting too light for a good nurse crop. But now that you mention it, the clover didn't take in the more heavily utilized plot- it literally looked like a freshly mown yard all winter; it was the less heavily browsed plot where the grains probably got to about 6" that now has a nice stand of clover.

For your 1/2 acre plot you are way over seeding it if you are put 50 lbs of rye and 30 lbs of wheat along with the clover AND 4 lbs of chicory and 5 lbs of brassicas. your brassicas are probably going to make it a moot point to even try to plant the clover I would think they would shade out the clover. For a 1/2 acre I would plant 50 lbs of rye and skip the oats and add the clover and maybe a pound of chicory at most.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but all of the planting rates were per acre (I went back and edited my original post for clarit), so it looks like I am planting a little LESS than you are suggesting . . . and now Mennoniteman has me re-thinking my planting rates in that plot as I take another shot at establishing clover!

 

[shawn cox]

I have to be honest- since I'm so far above the planting rates you see recommended it never dawned on me that I might be planting too light. The plot that clover didn't take in was also the more heavily utilized - it literally looked like a freshly mown yard all winter.



Sorry if I wasn't clear, but all of the planting rates were per acre, so the 1/2 acre plot would be 25# rye, 17.5# oats, 6# crimson, 2# arrowlef, 2# chicory and 2.5# brassicas - which is a little LESS than you are suggesting and now Mennoniteman has me re-thinking my planting rates in that plot!

Gotcha, but for the one that didn't take maybe you should plant all rye instead of adding the oats.

 

[Mennoniteman]

I have to be honest- since I'm so far above the planting rates you see recommended it literally never dawned on me that I might be planting too light for a good nurse crop. But now that you mention it, the clover didn't take in the more heavily utilized plot- it literally looked like a freshly mown yard all winter; it was the less heavily browsed plot where the grains probably got to about 6" that now has a nice stand of clover.



Sorry if I wasn't clear, but all of the planting rates were per acre (I went back and edited my original post for clarit), so it looks like I am planting a little LESS than you are suggesting . . . and now Mennoniteman has me re-thinking my planting rates in that plot as I take another shot at establishing clover!

I would say your current rates are in the medium range, as far as heavy or light. I like the chicory but I'd consider skipping the brassica if you really want a good clover stand. If you seed the grain heavier your clover component will still grow just fine this fall, and should survive the winter. The problem with choking the clover with too much grain would come in the middle of next spring with a thick rye stand that would need to be mowed to release the clover. That's why I'd like at least 50% oats for this plot, the deer love them, and they (might) winterkill to release the clover. My experience is that oats will not winterkill as quickly if grazed heavily because the root system survives since there isn't much leaf to freeze. I had a southern exposure plot of oats that was grazed to 1" survive in Pa last winter.

 

[Brian]

The most common reason for clover to fail is too much bare dirt/ no nurse crop, so for this reason I think if anything,... The deer wiping out the grain in midwinter and leaving the newly seeded clover overexposed is probably why it failed.

All I can say is that this forum is a wonderful resource and THANK YOU!

I went back and checked my notes and I've been planting the smaller plot (the one the clover didn't take in) at 90#/ac for the past few years. But the year I established clover in the larger plot I planted it at 115#/ac. Now that I'm looking at this from the right perspective it all makes sense.

And it turns out that pretty much everything I needed to know was right there in my notes, staring me in the face: at my deer population level I can establish clover with a nurse crop of grain planted at 115# grain per acre.

I am thinking about sticking with my plan to add brassicas (3# radishes, 2# rape) to my mix in the larger field with established clover. I tried brassicas last year but it never did much, probably because it couldn't compete with the grains, so I'm going to go in the opposite direction and reduce the grains a bit in that plot. But that raises another question: since I have annual clover is this going to impact how well the clover reseeds and performs next summer? If I have to choose between brassicas and clover- clover wins!

If nothing else I should learn something from both plots!

 

[Mennoniteman]

All I can say is that this forum is a wonderful resource and THANK YOU!

I went back and checked my notes and I've been planting the smaller plot (the one the clover didn't take in) at 90#/ac for the past few years. But the year I established clover in the larger plot I planted it at 115#/ac. Now that I'm looking at this from the right perspective it all makes sense.

And it turns out that pretty much everything I needed to know was right there in my notes, staring me in the face: at my deer population level I can establish clover with a nurse crop of grain planted at 115# grain per acre.

I am thinking about sticking with my plan to add brassicas (3# radishes, 2# rape) to my mix in the larger field with established clover. I tried brassicas last year but it never did much, probably because it couldn't compete with the grains, so I'm going to go in the opposite direction and reduce the grains a bit in that plot. But that raises another question: since I have annual clover is this going to impact how well the clover reseeds and performs next summer? If I have to choose between brassicas and clover- clover wins!

If nothing else I should learn something from both plots!

Im still learning new things too. And you keep notes! That's a valuable source of information. The thing with mixing brassica and small grain is that although the brassicas start easy they grow much slower than the grain. So it seems to work better for me to start the rape, radishes, turnips etc. earlier, then broadcast grain later for fall plots.

 

[X-farmerdan]

I'll play. Instead of talking about how many pounds of seed to plant, let's think about how many plants we want to plant and, at the same time consider how many plants an area (say, an acre) of ground will support. How many plants an area will support is a slippery subject. Let's assume the most limiting factor of production is moisture.

The trade-offs of different seeding rates are many and difficult to understand. In production ag we want to maximize economic yield. Researchers are more than willing to conduct experiments where the variable is the seeding rate and the outcome is yield. Easy.

Food plots? Eh. There's not much scientific interest. We need to mess with our thinking.

Let's make this simple. Plant 60 lbs of rye and, assuming a 100% germination and survival rate, you end up with how many plants? Trick question because different varieties of rye produce different size seeds. The range is 12-thousand to 33-thousand seeds per pound. Let's go with 16,000. In rough numbers to keep it round, that's a million rye plants per acre.

An acre has about 6-million square inches. So each plant occupies an area about 2 1/2 inches square. Get out your ruler and draw a box. Looks like plenty of space for something else - like clover...or more rye....or an equal amount of oats. But, you still have the same amount of water. Is it enough for 2 million plants or 3 million? Will your soil hold it? Now you need to know your soils and your climate.

And when you start to add plants you start decreasing another valuable resource - sunshine.

By now, I'm sure you are rolling your eyes - or you should be, but think about it. Think about your planting, not in pounds of seeds per acre, but in how many plants you are growing. It takes some work to figure out how many seeds are in a pound. You can do it or look for a chart. They are everywhere.

https://www.no-tillfarmer.com/articles/6078-how-to-determine-your-ideal-seeding-rate-for-rye

 

[Jason Broom]

As noted earlier, 4# per acre of chicory is way more than you need, when planted as part of a mix. To provide some perspective, I follow the LC guidelines pretty closely, planting 50#/ea of winter rye and oats, per acre, along with 10# of a medium red clover, 5# of Alsike white clover, and 1# of chicory. I usually skip the winter peas, but include the forage radish at 5#/acre. On the worst soils, the chicory does quite well at just 1#/acre. Where the soils are better, meaning they hold more moisture, the clovers do better, but the chicory still competes for a little ground.

When we say small grains act as a "nurse crop", part of what we're implying is that they will grow tall enough to make it a little challenging for deer to get down to the seedling clover starts. This allows the clover to get well-established before the cold sets in and they go to sleep. Since your plots are staying mowed really short, it's possible the wheat and oats weren't getting tall enough (on your smaller plot) to accomplish that goal. It is also possible winter rye will grow more, and be slightly less attractive to your deer, so the clovers will be a little more protected? It could very well be that simply changing from wheat to rye is all it will take to see a better establishment of clovers in your smaller plot.

Look into triticale: I have found it to be a good alternative. It's a hybrid of winter rye and winter wheat. You get a lot of the soil-building attributes of rye, but perhaps more palatability in the seed head the following summer. All I can say is I've been very happy with the results obtained in the plots where I have used it. I'm not claiming it's better, just that it has worked well on my plots.

 

[FL Plotter]

Here is a 1/4 acre plot with exactly 50# of rye/wheat/oats (high percentage wheat) spread with an Earthway push spreader last weekend. That would be 200# per acre. I expect to have some mortality as it gets nipped before it can recover, but it doesn't appear too thick right now.

In the picture with the deer in it, that plot also has 5# of clover and 5# of chicory along with 50# of mix. Again, a .25 acre plot. If the grains are too thick in the spring to allow the clover to flourish, I will mow the plot in March and/or April.

 

[SwampCat]

It also depends a lot in your preparation. If I am top sowing wheat on bare, untilled ground - I like to go with at least 150-200 lbs per acre. Birds will get a lot, some will develope a root hair and die, some will not germinate, etc. Throw and mow - maybe 120 to 150 lbs per acre for a good stand. If the soil is nicely prepared and the seed cultipacked after sowing - 75 lbs per acre is about right - for my ground. That all goes out the window if it doesnt rain for a month after planting