preparing for next summer.....

[Baker]

Here's what I have learned with a managed population well below carrying capacity in La.:

The deer have figured out food plots and planting schemes. I can't get away with growing summer crops [ any kind of bean or pea ] on less than 4 acres. Even with very moderate population they hit the plots as soon as the summer crops start coming up and wipe the field out. It took 2-3 years for them to learn but now it doesn't take many deer to eliminate the cultivars before they ever get going.

So, on fields of less than 5 acres I go with clover/small grain plantings as Triple C mentioned above. They are great and can be managed for years offering year round production with just moderate moisture during summer. I also have vetch/alyce fields less than 4 acres but it is always uncertain if grazing pressure will allow them to reseed or not. They do however handle pressure very well even if they occasionally have to be replanted. That said I am a big fan of joint vetch.

For cow peas, soy beans or any variant I only plant bigger fields [ most are 10 acres+ ] which I I double crop with rye/radishes in the winter and maybe crimson generally. I have gotten away with 3-4 acre fields planted with a heavy dose of sunn hemp and cow peas. The sunn hemp can take very heavy pressure and protects the cow peas though it may take a couple years for the deer to figure sunn hemp out .

IMO it will only be a matter of time before any bean/pea field less than 4-5 acres will be a disappointment

 

[David]

Here's what I have learned with a managed population well below carrying capacity in La.:

The deer have figured out food plots and planting schemes. I can't get away with growing summer crops [ any kind of bean or pea ] on less than 4 acres. Even with very moderate population they hit the plots as soon as the summer crops start coming up and wipe the field out. It took 2-3 years for them to learn but now it doesn't take many deer to eliminate the cultivars before they ever get going.

So, on fields of less than 5 acres I go with clover/small grain plantings as Triple C mentioned above. They are great and can be managed for years offering year round production with just moderate moisture during summer. I also have vetch/alyce fields less than 4 acres but it is always uncertain if grazing pressure will allow them to reseed or not. They do however handle pressure very well even if they occasionally have to be replanted. That said I am a big fan of joint vetch.

For cow peas, soy beans or any variant I only plant bigger fields [ most are 10 acres+ ] which I I double crop with rye/radishes in the winter and maybe crimson generally. I have gotten away with 3-4 acre fields planted with a heavy dose of sunn hemp and cow peas. The sunn hemp can take very heavy pressure and protects the cow peas though it may take a couple years for the deer to figure sunn hemp out .

IMO it will only be a matter of time before any bean/pea field less than 4-5 acres will be a disappointment

Thanks baker.

I appreciate the input.



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[Triple C]

The only plot that I do a full-blown LC mix, (perennial clover, grains and brassicas), is our largest plot. We call it the bean field cause we once planted beans every summer only to get wiped out by mid summer. It's the perfect LC mix plot at just under 6 acres. I can maintain the entire perimeter in clover and have plenty in the interior to plant grains and brassicas. He was a proponent of doing alternating strips of grains and brassicas. But this far south, it's hard to do that because I've found I need to plant my brassicas a month or so ahead of my grains in order to give them enough growing time to reach maturity and produce heavy mass tops. I want the brassicas in the ground early to mid September ahead of a rain event and the grains planted anytime in October ahead of a rain event. If I plant grains in September they grow too fast.

Based on a 3 acre plot like you mentioned, try planting a perennial clover strip around the perimeter. Plant brassicas in the interior in September ahead of a rain event. Then broadcast winter wheat or Abruzzi rye into the brassicas in October ahead of a rain event.

On my smaller plots, I'm slowly converting those to perennial clover and adding grains in the fall. Based on what others have stated I will probably broadcast brassicas into some of those next fall and see how that works out. I always plant BFO's in at least one plot every year. They're expensive and maybe it's my bias but seems the deer prefer the BFOs over any of the other grains. But...they eat em all.

 

[David]

The only plot that I do a full-blown LC mix, (perennial clover, grains and brassicas), is our largest plot. We call it the bean field cause we once planted beans every summer only to get wiped out by mid summer. It's the perfect LC mix plot at just under 6 acres. I can maintain the entire perimeter in clover and have plenty in the interior to plant grains and brassicas. He was a proponent of doing alternating strips of grains and brassicas. But this far south, it's hard to do that because I've found I need to plant my brassicas a month or so ahead of my grains in order to give them enough growing time to reach maturity and produce heavy mass tops. I want the brassicas in the ground early to mid September ahead of a rain event and the grains planted anytime in October ahead of a rain event. If I plant grains in September they grow too fast.

Based on a 3 acre plot like you mentioned, try planting a perennial clover strip around the perimeter. Plant brassicas in the interior in September ahead of a rain event. Then broadcast winter wheat or Abruzzi rye into the brassicas in October ahead of a rain event.

On my smaller plots, I'm slowly converting those to perennial clover and adding grains in the fall. Based on what others have stated I will probably broadcast brassicas into some of those next fall and see how that works out. I always plant BFO's in at least one plot every year. They're expensive and maybe it's my bias but seems the deer prefer the BFOs over any of the other grains. But...they eat em all.

Thanks again!



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[David]

Thanks again!



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Triple C

I've been thinking about your rotation, reading up on lick creeks old threads, and reading my plotting books. I'm starting to formulate my plan. A few questions.

1) Could you give me a rough idea of any weed controll you are praticing? In particular herbicides in your "bean field".

2) you mention a strip of clover in your 6 acre field. Are you overseeing this at all? Or completely relying on reseeding annuals and continued growth of perrinial clover? Does it recieve a nurse crop of wheat in the fall?

I'm sure I will have more questions in the future

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[David]

The only plot that I do a full-blown LC mix, (perennial clover, grains and brassicas), is our largest plot. We call it the bean field cause we once planted beans every summer only to get wiped out by mid summer. It's the perfect LC mix plot at just under 6 acres. I can maintain the entire perimeter in clover and have plenty in the interior to plant grains and brassicas. He was a proponent of doing alternating strips of grains and brassicas. But this far south, it's hard to do that because I've found I need to plant my brassicas a month or so ahead of my grains in order to give them enough growing time to reach maturity and produce heavy mass tops. I want the brassicas in the ground early to mid September ahead of a rain event and the grains planted anytime in October ahead of a rain event. If I plant grains in September they grow too fast.

Based on a 3 acre plot like you mentioned, try planting a perennial clover strip around the perimeter. Plant brassicas in the interior in September ahead of a rain event. Then broadcast winter wheat or Abruzzi rye into the brassicas in October ahead of a rain event.

On my smaller plots, I'm slowly converting those to perennial clover and adding grains in the fall. Based on what others have stated I will probably broadcast brassicas into some of those next fall and see how that works out. I always plant BFO's in at least one plot every year. They're expensive and maybe it's my bias but seems the deer prefer the BFOs over any of the other grains. But...they eat em all.

Also, are you drilling your grains into your brassics after they begin to grow or are they side by side?

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[Smallplot]

Triple C

I've been thinking about your rotation, reading up on lick creeks old threads, and reading my plotting books. I'm starting to formulate my plan. A few questions.

1) Could you give me a rough idea of any weed controll you are praticing? In particular herbicides in your "bean field".

2) you mention a strip of clover in your 6 acre field. Are you overseeing this at all? Or completely relying on reseeding annuals and continued growth of perrinial clover? Does it recieve a nurse crop of wheat in the fall?

I'm sure I will have more questions in the future

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While not triple C, I can give you my viewpoint.

Weed control is not usually too much of an issue as we are talking fall food plots. The cereal mix is planted early fall so you are taking care of most weeds and your crop will canopy pretty quick so only cool season weeds may get started but cool temps usually keep them from doing much. In the spring the rye also helps keep weeds down.

With the brassica they produce some of their own weed control as well. Beginning with a clean area at planting is usually all that is needed as long as you have the nutrients for good growth. Frost seeding med red clover or crimson clover into the spent brassica is always a good option as you will be creating cover and adding to available N for your fall rotation of cereal mix. I really like to notill brassica into the rye thatch with the drill.

For clovers, I have never had to overseed. If worried about needing to overseed use nature to your advantage. Let the blooms dry then mow and you are overseeding by scattering the seeds your crop is producing.



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[David]

While not triple C, I can give you my viewpoint.

Weed control is not usually too much of an issue as we are talking fall food plots. The cereal mix is planted early fall so you are taking care of most weeds and your crop will canopy pretty quick so only cool season weeds may get started but cool temps usually keep them from doing much. In the spring the rye also helps keep weeds down.

With the brassica they produce some of their own weed control as well. Beginning with a clean area at planting is usually all that is needed as long as you have the nutrients for good growth.

For clovers, I have never had to overseed. If worried about needing to overseed use nature to your advantage. Let the blooms dry then mow and you are overseeding by scattering the seeds your crop is producing.


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The 2 weeds I have had the most trouble with in my clovers are plantain and thistles. I have had similar results as you mention with my grains and brasicas due to the timing of the planting. But the clover sure does have alot of winter rosettes of the plantain and thistle right now.

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[Smallplot]

The 2 weeds I have had the most trouble with in my clovers are plantain and thistles. I have had similar results as you mention with my grains and brasicas due to the timing of the planting. But the clover sure does have alot of winter rosettes of the plantain and thistle right now.

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These can take a couple years to control as many tend to be biannual. Spraying with 2-4DB (Butryac 400) is one common choice in a clover crop. There is also Raptor but it is expensive and takes a very small amount so not real cost productive with food plots.

Sometimes just mowing weeds before the plants reach maturity during the season is the best option. If you are close and have access this can really clean up a clover plot. Just mow as high as you can if mowing is needed frequently.


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[Tap]

Canada Thistle is nasty. Mowing won't kill it and a lot of herbicides just set it back but don't kill it. It laughs at 24DB and Raptor. Even glyphosate doesn't completely kill the roots. CA is common in fall planted plots that are planted in perennial forages. You might think you killed it with roundup last fall, but you'll realize how durable the crap is next spring.
And Plantain also cannot be controlled with mowing. Just look at my yard.

 

[Smallplot]

Canada Thistle is nasty. Mowing won't kill it and a lot of herbicides just set it back but don't kill it. It laughs at 24DB and Raptor. Even glyphosate doesn't completely kill the roots. CA is common in fall planted plots that are planted in perennial forages. You might think you killed it with roundup last fall, but you'll realize how durable the crap is next spring.
And Plantain also cannot be controlled with mowing. Just look at my yard.

If a big issue spot spraying with Crossbow is always an option. Also you can spot spray with 24d (not DB). But this is not a one shot and done. The root can begin new growth if even a part of the root remains alive.

Behind mowing the thistle, like I said will take a while and has to be kept up. Every time you mow off the leaves as they reappear (and for this the leaves have to grow above your lowest cutting height which some don’t) the continued cutting and growing will Harlow to deplete the plants store to regrow the next year. While not fast, this can take a couple years.


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[David]

These can take a couple years to control as many tend to be biannual. Spraying with 2-4DB (Butryac 400) is one common choice in a clover crop. There is also Raptor but it is expensive and takes a very small amount so not real cost productive with food plots.

Sometimes just mowing weeds before the plants reach maturity during the season is the best option. If you are close and have access this can really clean up a clover plot. Just mow as high as you can if mowing is needed frequently.


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Thanks small plot.

2 questions....

One about broadleafs and one about grasses....

The plots have a good number of rosettes in them right now. History shows they will be all over the place mid summer. Should I hit them with 2-4DB before spring green up? Knowing I will probably have to battle them again in june/july?

Grasses.....here are a few pictures from last year. (I am very new to this and I know I made mistakes) I used oats as a nurse crop. I really have trouble telling the difference between my oats and other cool season grasses before they seed.

The picture with the four wheeler shows plenty of grass mixed in the clover plot. Crimson clover is flowering awesome and early as it should. I moved the exclusion cage just before the picture. U can see where it used to be....what ever grasses were in the plot were equally eaten as the cage shows.

This picture shows its not all oats...there are other seed heads in the back ground.

So I panicked and hit it with cleth which took a few weeks, but was very helpful in killing grasses.

Problem is the arrow leaf never really took off. And by the time the grass died, so had the crimson and then entered the broad leaf weeds.


The reason I ask is that if I'm going to go to the LC mix in my big field. I want to be able to actually grow a clover plot that's worth a dang.

This year the clover plots (3 small .8 acre plots ) have:

30% Crimson Clover
30% Ladino Grazing Clover
30% Arrowleaf Clover
10% Alfalfa

So that's why I was asking triple c about weed controll. I would love a couple of tips.



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[David]

As far as the thistles go I actually go in by hand with a shovel and chop them off about 4 inches under ground.

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[Tap]

As far as the thistles go I actually go in by hand with a shovel and chop them off about 4 inches under ground.

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I did that. It didn't work for me. The roots just sucker. Removing 4 inches is a drop in the bucket.

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[David]

I did that. It didn't work for me. The roots just sucker. Removing 4 inches is a drop in the bucket.

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Oh my

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[Tap]

Oh my

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I've been fighting Canada Thistle for several years. Mowing only helps as much as it reduces seed production on the plants that get clipped but thistle plants that are run over by tractor and mower wheels still produce flowers. And the clipped ones continue to sucker and spread.

Pulling, digging, and individual clipping didn't work for me either.

Here's my latest approach and it really seemed to help.
I keep it from producing seed throughout the summer and I spot spray with Clopyralid 3 in late summer. It's labeled to spray thistle all the way to the bud stage. Not many herbicides say that. Most say to spray only young plants. C3 does kill other broadleaf like clover so I've over seeded rye into the thistle so I have something growing.
The C3 treatment has been a 2 year deal for me, but it seems to be working.
When I spot spray C3, I'm very careful to minimize over spraying. I just use a bottle sprayer.


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[Smallplot]

Thanks small plot.

2 questions....

One about broadleafs and one about grasses....

The plots have a good number of rosettes in them right now. History shows they will be all over the place mid summer. Should I hit them with 2-4DB before spring green up? Knowing I will probably have to battle them again in june/july?

Grasses.....here are a few pictures from last year. (I am very new to this and I know I made mistakes) I used oats as a nurse crop. I really have trouble telling the difference between my oats and other cool season grasses before they seed.

The picture with the four wheeler shows plenty of grass mixed in the clover plot. Crimson clover is flowering awesome and early as it should. I moved the exclusion cage just before the picture. U can see where it used to be....what ever grasses were in the plot were equally eaten as the cage shows.

This picture shows its not all oats...there are other seed heads in the back ground.

So I panicked and hit it with cleth which took a few weeks, but was very helpful in killing grasses.

Problem is the arrow leaf never really took off. And by the time the grass died, so had the crimson and then entered the broad leaf weeds.


The reason I ask is that if I'm going to go to the LC mix in my big field. I want to be able to actually grow a clover plot that's worth a dang.

This year the clover plots (3 small .8 acre plots ) have:

30% Crimson Clover
30% Ladino Grazing Clover
30% Arrowleaf Clover
10% Alfalfa

So that's why I was asking triple c about weed controll. I would love a couple of tips.



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First lets address the broadleafs. If there are a bunch then likely past practice has already helped to spread them. That being said the most effective method, although time consuming, would be to spot spray with 2-4-d or crossbow. Both are contact herbicides so you need to wait until the plant is growing well (temps above low of 50 for at least one week where warmer weather is expected to follow). Still need to keep watch in case some don’t get enough for a kill and then begin again plus anything new which may begin to grow through the summer. The best time to spray may be fall when the plant is using most of its energy to store nutrients down in the root structure. Spring the roots are sending nutrients out to the plant more so getting chems down into the roots can be less effective.

As for grasses. I don’t care for oats as a cover crop. Spring planted they mature early in the year which creates a longer window for weeds to get a foothold. What I do like is a fall planting of winter rye and a good amount of med red clover. The rye keeps the weeds down pretty well and the med red clover growers fast and puts on enough canopy to further aid in weed control. Grasses are a different animal. Spraying Clethodim is very effective and can be used to terminate cover crop (if you don’t want it to make grain) as well as controlling earlier grasses. Again spray after temps reach 50 for lows for at least a week.

I should also add this. When dealing with weeds identifying them is key. There are many weeds that are easier and more effective to control in the fall which gives established spring plots a head start since these weeds tend to be cool season weeds that can get the jump even on established crops.


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[Tap]

First lets address the broadleafs. If there are a bunch then likely past practice has already helped to spread them. That being said the most effective method, although time consuming, would be to spot spray with 2-4-d or crossbow. Both are contact herbicides so you need to wait until the plant is growing well (temps above low of 50 for at least one week where warmer weather is expected to follow). Still need to keep watch in case some don’t get enough for a kill and then begin again plus anything new which may begin to grow through the summer. The best time to spray may be fall when the plant is using most of its energy to store nutrients down in the root structure. Spring the roots are sending nutrients out to the plant more so getting chems down into the roots can be less effective.

As for grasses. I don’t care for oats as a cover crop. Spring planted they mature early in the year which creates a longer window for weeds to get a foothold. What I do like is a fall planting of winter rye and a good amount of med red clover. The rye keeps the weeds down pretty well and the med red clover growers fast and puts on enough canopy to further aid in weed control. Grasses are a different animal. Spraying Clethodim is very effective and can be used to terminate cover crop (if you don’t want it to make grain) as well as controlling earlier grasses. Again spray after temps reach 50 for lows for at least a week.

I should also add this. When dealing with weeds identifying them is key. There are many weeds that are easier and more effective to control in the fall which gives established spring plots a head start since these weeds tend to be cool season weeds that can get the jump even on established crops.


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Excellent points.
The only thing I'd add is that when we plant clover and rye (deer food) and have a high deer population, they can target our forage and eliminate it's potential for competition to the weeds.
That's an issue I deal with. No easy answer to that problem.

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[Smallplot]

Excellent points.
The only thing I'd add is that when we plant clover and rye (deer food) and have a high deer population, they can target our forage and eliminate it's potential for competition to the weeds.
That's an issue I deal with. No easy answer to that problem.

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That is one issue we don’t address very often. A plot has to take a heck of a beating for one not to have success with the LC rotation but I have one farm that we also have that issue. Not a lot of crops real close with very good deer woods present. I upped the rate of the red clover I planted this year to almost double so hopefully will see how that goes. Guess it is a good issue to have!

Just a foot note: just before dark I got a phone call from someone going to pick up some round bales stored by one of my Alfalfa fields and he said there were about 40 turkeys and at least 21 deer out in the Alfalfa as he pulled in. Said there were likely more but that was all he could count before they disappeared into the timber.


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[David]

That is one issue we don’t address very often. A plot has to take a heck of a beating for one not to have success with the LC rotation but I have one farm that we also have that issue. Not a lot of crops real close with very good deer woods present. I upped the rate of the red clover I planted this year to almost double so hopefully will see how that goes. Guess it is a good issue to have!

Just a foot note: just before dark I got a phone call from someone going to pick up some round bales stored by one of my Alfalfa fields and he said there were about 40 turkeys and at least 21 deer out in the Alfalfa as he pulled in. Said there were likely more but that was all he could count before they disappeared into the timber.


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Thanks fellas. My exclusion cages (in the current year) show a difference of at least a foot on my oats. (Switching to wheat next year due to several reasons).

Point being I'm sure deer pressure is helping my weeds.

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