PPCNSNT plot fertility maintenance: Gypsum only?

[MarkDarvin]

(Perennial poly-culture no-spray no-till)

I am not rich in plot equipment. Most everything I apply has to be flung by hand or leaf blower. This has lead me to seek low input plotting techniques. I've been wondering about something as I research how wild systems function.

I identified 32 species that were growing in my PPC plot last summer, a healthy balance of legumes, broadleaves, grasses, and flowers. I took credit for some weeds I never put there, but were just there on their own. This plot is a blend of white clovers, assaulted with as many other plants as possible through cool season broadcasting, timely mowing, and avoiding chem gaps.

Know that this question is for maintenance, and not a first action on new ground. When I open up new plot space, I go to work right away balancing pH, balancing Ca/Mg, and adding potassium. I can get all that done after 1 soil test, but what about years 3-10. Could I get away with only ever putting gypsum back and and still have peak fertility for my plot?

The end game I'm seeking is to be able to grow my OM to 6%+ and then I'd quit with the gypsum too, but then be kicking out year round hi-tonnage hi-quality forage with little intervention beyond broadcasting some annuals and doing some mowing.

 

[catscratch]

Sounds like the perfect plotting system!

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[MarkDarvin]

Sounds like the perfect plotting system!

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I'm wondering if I can get my OM up to the levels of rural Kansas grazers, if I could get enough sulfur out of my OM to quit with the gypsum. I've done borax two years in a row, but I haven't seen any show up in a soil test the year after. I believe it's out there, it's just not being picked up with the lab methods, kinda the same way that 10,000 years worth of phosphorus and potassium are also out there, but just not "available."

 

[catscratch]

10,000yrs of native prairie grasses tillering roots and being trampled and mobbed grazed by bison if you want KS organic matter...

Unlocking minerals and nutrients is a goofy thing. Your stuff should be there and a lab should be able to find it, but maybe it needs a microbial agent to do it's thing before so?

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[MarkDarvin]

10,000yrs of native prairie grasses tillering roots and being trampled and mobbed grazed by bison if you want KS organic matter...

Unlocking minerals and nutrients is a goofy thing. Your stuff should be there and a lab should be able to find it, but maybe it needs a microbial agent to do it's thing before so?

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I'm off to the 20th century google, the public library. Haven't been to one since college, but the next set of books I'm looking for are not hobby affordable.

 

[Jack Terpack]

I sometimes wonder about these soil tests we have run. Several years ago my cousin collected a soil sample of a one acre food plot. He was always the curious type so he sent samples of the same soil to three different labs. The results he got back were absolutely amazing. They did not agree on anything. Three totally different recommendations. The results weren't really bad, We had always spread some lime and fertilizer on a yearly basis. We were interested in the lesser thought of possibilities so that is what he requested. Now, I don't even bother. I look at the plots and make judgements on my own. If I see a real problem, I might send a sample in again, but I take the results with a grain of salt.

 

[Jeff H]

I sometimes wonder about these soil tests we have run. Several years ago my cousin collected a soil sample of a one acre food plot. He was always the curious type so he sent samples of the same soil to three different labs. The results he got back were absolutely amazing. They did not agree on anything. Three totally different recommendations. The results weren't really bad, We had always spread some lime and fertilizer on a yearly basis. We were interested in the lesser thought of possibilities so that is what he requested. Now, I don't even bother. I look at the plots and make judgements on my own. If I see a real problem, I might send a sample in again, but I take the results with a grain of salt.

Interesting.

 

[dogghr]

(Perennial poly-culture no-spray no-till)
View attachment 17846
I am not rich in plot equipment. Most everything I apply has to be flung by hand or leaf blower. This has lead me to seek low input plotting techniques. I've been wondering about something as I research how wild systems function.
View attachment 17847
I identified 32 species that were growing in my PPC plot last summer, a healthy balance of legumes, broadleaves, grasses, and flowers. I took credit for some weeds I never put there, but were just there on their own. This plot is a blend of white clovers, assaulted with as many other plants as possible through cool season broadcasting, timely mowing, and avoiding chem gaps.
View attachment 17848
Know that this question is for maintenance, and not a first action on new ground. When I open up new plot space, I go to work right away balancing pH, balancing Ca/Mg, and adding potassium. I can get all that done after 1 soil test, but what about years 3-10. Could I get away with only ever putting gypsum back and and still have peak fertility for my plot?
View attachment 17849
The end game I'm seeking is to be able to grow my OM to 6%+ and then I'd quit with the gypsum too, but then be kicking out year round hi-tonnage hi-quality forage with little intervention beyond broadcasting some annuals and doing some mowing.
View attachment 17850

View attachment 17851

View attachment 17852

I normally get agitated for some of you good soil midwesterners that would throw out the idea of getting OM over 6%.
In answer to your ph first, yes it can be done especially for 10 years. I treated my 5.5 ph 10 years ago and with normal mowing, and proper plot rotation, the ph has stayed 6.5-7 since then, just slipping this past year. In addition, for typically acidic, less than ideal mountain soils, my readings are all VH in every category of soil analysis. I ck it every 2-3 years.
Monoculture plots are the nemesis of self sustaining plant growth. Just look at what a golf course has to do to maintain there landscape. Rotate, or as I do anymore, overseed a variety of plants each fall or late winter, and sit back and let them fight it out. Except for just a few evil weeds, balance occurs. Even the dreaded thistle struggles in plots where I allow grasses to remain present.
As I've said before, every time someone sees a plant they don't think should be there, they quickly start thinking some chemical or mechanical treatment is in order. Simply not needed. Spend more time watching the interaction of how nature does its planting and maintenence and cease micromanaging. That is only a fake news of the industry wanting your money.
Finally, don't you Markdavin have cattle at your disposal?? If so, your problem is solved by rotational mob grazing and proper timing of seed dispersion. Research the soil guy and also regenerative grazing movement. It can very well be applied to non profit food plotting even wo the cattle. You can see somewhere on my land thread or a post of how I even established a new clover plot wo any seeding or spraying, just making my tractor mimic the work of the once present buffalo herd.
Good luck, just a rambling thats worth what you paid me for it. I'm off to let the primer ignite my smoke pole for some fresh venison. Btw, my sit back , do nothing and watch, grass and weed included food plots do there own stuff, in shallow, acidic ,mountain soil, had half dozen deer in one of them as I pulled into farm at noon yesterday. They looked up, checked out truck, and went back to eating. Less, is more. You are on the right track.

 

[MarkDarvin]

I sometimes wonder about these soil tests we have run. Several years ago my cousin collected a soil sample of a one acre food plot. He was always the curious type so he sent samples of the same soil to three different labs. The results he got back were absolutely amazing. They did not agree on anything. Three totally different recommendations. The results weren't really bad, We had always spread some lime and fertilizer on a yearly basis. We were interested in the lesser thought of possibilities so that is what he requested. Now, I don't even bother. I look at the plots and make judgements on my own. If I see a real problem, I might send a sample in again, but I take the results with a grain of salt.

This is the path that I'm on. Every test for something has some means of "extraction" and it's usually in the form of squirting some sort of acid on the sample and measuring a reaction. These results are probably very useful in a similar environment where there is only one thing growing for part of the growing season.

What I'm trying to get my hands on now, is information about the number of and function of root exudates generated by various plants. Every plant, and its individual parts, generates something, and at every stage of life from germination, to growth, to stress, death, and decomposition. What I'm expecting to find is that there is a genius of natural method in constant and diverse production of organic acids by plants.

I went to the library for the first time in forever, and ordered up a small stack of quackery to start pursuing this stuff.

 

[Jack Terpack]

This is the path that I'm on. Every test for something has some means of "extraction" and it's usually in the form of squirting some sort of acid on the sample and measuring a reaction. These results are probably very useful in a similar environment where there is only one thing growing for part of the growing season.

What I'm trying to get my hands on now, is information about the number of and function of root exudates generated by various plants. Every plant, and its individual parts, generates something, and at every stage of life from germination, to growth, to stress, death, and decomposition. What I'm expecting to find is that there is a genius of natural method in constant and diverse production of organic acids by plants.

I went to the library for the first time in forever, and ordered up a small stack of quackery to start pursuing this stuff.

I really like quackery. That is one of the reasons I really like Baker's approach on most of his plots. Throw a little bit of everything at it and see what sticks the best. I believe that a really healthy plot should almost be self-sustaining and requires less additives because each plant compliments other plants in the long run. Except Johnson Grass and Sweetgum. I hate Johnson Grass and Sweetgum.

 

[catscratch]

I really like quackery. That is one of the reasons I really like Baker's approach on most of his plots. Throw a little bit of everything at it and see what sticks the best. I believe that a really healthy plot should almost be self-sustaining and requires less additives because each plant compliments other plants in the long run. Except Johnson Grass and Sweetgum. I hate Johnson Grass and Sweetgum.

Johnson grass is manageable with cattle. They love to eat it and since it's one of the first plants to go dormant in the fall it works well with fall and winter plots. Summer plots are a different story. Damn near impossible to kill out JG and get a summer plant going. I've considered climbing plants for JG patches but never tried it. Anyone ever planted peas or other climbing plot plants with JG?

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[Jack Terpack]

Johnson grass is manageable with cattle. They love to eat it and since it's one of the first plants to go dormant in the fall it works well with fall and winter plots. Summer plots are a different story. Damn near impossible to kill out JG and get a summer plant going. I've considered climbing plants for JG patches but never tried it. Anyone ever planted peas or other climbing plot plants with JG?

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I was inundated with JG when I bought this place. I sprayed and sprayed and sprayed and couldn't really keep up. I found that mowing it frequently seems to set it back. Slowly I seem to have gotten it under control. It still pops up here and there but I spray it as soon as I see it and mow the area every chance I get. I'm down from about 5 acres to a couple hundred square feet.

 

[MarkDarvin]

Finally, don't you Markdavin have cattle at your disposal?? If so, your problem is solved by rotational mob grazing and proper timing of seed dispersion. Research the soil guy and also regenerative grazing movement. It can very well be applied to non profit food plotting even wo the cattle.

No farm livestock. With a little trickery, I make other critters do work from deer down to microbes. Tweety birds even play a role in my plan.

 

[OkieKubota]

I am scarrifying a lot of ground with steel tracks for my bison herd...

 

[TreeDaddy]

No farm livestock. With a little trickery, I make other critters do work from deer down to microbes. Tweety birds even play a role in my plan.

.......I believe they just impeached the president

bill

 

[davidhelmly]

.......I believe they just impeached the president

bill

No you were just having a liberal dream...

 

[TX-Aggie]

MarkDarvin - i think you are goign down the pathways that i accidentally stumbled upon down the youtube rabbit hole with the North Dakota guys. These youtube journeys have been eye opening and scary at times with the amount of information that i don't know, but want to learn, so i understand your general quackery of library books.

Don't be completely scared of going down the youtube rabbit hole. Basically i'll watch one person's video - say Russell from North Carolina, then when youtube suggests another video, i always say "yes, play". It eventually starts getting into the Kristen Nichols (i think that is her name) and some Austrailian lady who start talking in depth about the exudates from different plants and how they work for the system as a whole - or that Jonathan Lundgrin Bug Guy videos. I will say, i have no background in farming and maybe that is a good thing like Russel says, but i'm watching these videos and everything just makes sense. So much so, i'm confused why these guys are still the "renegades".

Based on everything I've seen on these videos, standard university soil tests can't/won't capture all the nutrients available due to their testing methods. Each of these no til growers trumpet the Haney Test (along with Ray the Soil Guy). I believe his testing is more expensive than your standard university extension testing, but captures all the different variables that start showing up when you start using the multi-species no till method of farming (or in our case food plotting). With his testing being more expensive, maybe not testing every year, but testing every couple of years along with watching your plots and their responses may be direction you would want to go. This is where i think i'm headed. Still working on the "economic" side of this food plotting and soil testing as i'm still pretty new to the game.

 

[MarkDarvin]

MarkDarvin - i think you are goign down the pathways that i accidentally stumbled upon down the youtube rabbit hole with the North Dakota guys. These youtube journeys have been eye opening and scary at times with the amount of information that i don't know, but want to learn, so i understand your general quackery of library books.

Don't be completely scared of going down the youtube rabbit hole. Basically i'll watch one person's video - say Russell from North Carolina, then when youtube suggests another video, i always say "yes, play". It eventually starts getting into the Kristen Nichols (i think that is her name) and some Austrailian lady who start talking in depth about the exudates from different plants and how they work for the system as a whole - or that Jonathan Lundgrin Bug Guy videos. I will say, i have no background in farming and maybe that is a good thing like Russel says, but i'm watching these videos and everything just makes sense. So much so, i'm confused why these guys are still the "renegades".

Based on everything I've seen on these videos, standard university soil tests can't/won't capture all the nutrients available due to their testing methods. Each of these no til growers trumpet the Haney Test (along with Ray the Soil Guy). I believe his testing is more expensive than your standard university extension testing, but captures all the different variables that start showing up when you start using the multi-species no till method of farming (or in our case food plotting). With his testing being more expensive, maybe not testing every year, but testing every couple of years along with watching your plots and their responses may be direction you would want to go. This is where i think i'm headed. Still working on the "economic" side of this food plotting and soil testing as i'm still pretty new to the game.

Don't sweat not having a background in farming. That industry is far from aligned when it comes to best management practices. I think it's intentional chaos by industry. Much like war, if you want to take something over, but destroy it all first, you have to buy or build back all the same stuff you just destroyed. With the exception of seed (and sulfur in low OM soils), every product applied to the soil is already in the soil and has biological mechanisms to release it. We just happen to burn down all the factories and kill all the workers with management practices, so we have to buy soluble nutrients, biological products, and special acids to spray out there. All to replace what we destroyed.

What we're doing is entirely different from farming. There is a lot to be learned from ag, but there is also a lot we don't have to worry about. We don't have to harvest, and we don't have to make a profit.

The whole concept can be boiled down to a simple idea. "Quit killing." (There's got to be some killing to get started, but don't kill all year every year)

Mimick nature while also maintaining some control via gentle nudging with cool season stuff and mowing. I've seen all those youtube videos. Long winters up here. There are 5 people that tie all this together. The rest is repeats, rip offs, or slivers of bigger concepts.

Kieth Burns - Carbonomics
Dr. Kristine Nichols - Soil biology builds resilience
Dr. Christine Jones - Nitrogen, the double edge sword
Dr. Elaine Ingham - The roots of your profits
Ray - Cover crops and soil health with Ray Archuleta