Need some advice

[Brutalfly]

I have a son who is really wanting to get his first deer. I am worried about the spot we have to hunt. I am really wanting to be as safe as I can for us and everybody around us. I have attached a picture of the area I would like to hunt but am worried about. So I wanted to see what you guys thought. I will describe the picture and please feel free to give me your opinion. I would love for my son to get his first deer and this is the only place right now that I can go. We have a trail cam out there and we have seen plenty of doe and a couple of 8 point bucks.
The red area is where the blind will be.
The black spot is the trail cam.
The orange lines are the acres across the area.
The yellow is the zone I felt the safest to shoot and it goes down hill.
The blind can be moved back as well to the west.
There are no houses until after the road on the left side of the picture.

Just wanting some advice. I appreciate any and all help.

 

[yoderjac]

Know your target and beyond... I've repeated that sentence over 1,000 times in the Hunter Ed classes I teach. The first consideration is your weapon. I high powered rifle can travel miles. A bow, or crossbow, can be used safely in the suburbs. In highly populated areas, they often restrict firearms to shotguns with slugs for deer for safety. A modern 20 gauge shotgun with a rifled barrel can be accurate out to 200 yards, but the slug will begin to tumble soon after that. Shooting at a downward angle helps with safety. Elevating the blind can help with that even more.

You mention that this is your son's first deer. You did not mention his age. On thing to consider is his mental discipline. Is he good focusing on muzzle control? Does he get so excited when a deer comes into view that shooting it becomes more important than anything else? Can he pass shots that are not ethical and have a high likelihood of wounding a deer and not recovering it? Does target fixation take him over where he loses sight of the safety considerations?

Here are a few suggestions if you plan to use a firearm:

1) Get him setup with a single shot 20 gauge with a rifled barrel and sabots. You can get a little H&R pretty cheap.
2) If he is new to hunting, restrict his shot distance to 50 yards.
3) Elevate the blind if possible
4) Restrict his field of view. Close all the windows of the blind except for his safe shooting zone. This will help keep him from getting silhouetted and help with safety.

Best of luck!

 

[Brutalfly]

Know your target and beyond... I've repeated that sentence over 1,000 times in the Hunter Ed classes I teach. The first consideration is your weapon. I high powered rifle can travel miles. A bow, or crossbow, can be used safely in the suburbs. In highly populated areas, they often restrict firearms to shotguns with slugs for deer for safety. A modern 20 gauge shotgun with a rifled barrel can be accurate out to 200 yards, but the slug will begin to tumble soon after that. Shooting at a downward angle helps with safety. Elevating the blind can help with that even more.

You mention that this is your son's first deer. You did not mention his age. On thing to consider is his mental discipline. Is he good focusing on muzzle control? Does he get so excited when a deer comes into view that shooting it becomes more important than anything else? Can he pass shots that are not ethical and have a high likelihood of wounding a deer and not recovering it? Does target fixation take him over where he loses sight of the safety considerations?

Here are a few suggestions if you plan to use a firearm:

1) Get him setup with a single shot 20 gauge with a rifled barrel and sabots. You can get a little H&R pretty cheap.
2) If he is new to hunting, restrict his shot distance to 50 yards.
3) Elevate the blind if possible
4) Restrict his field of view. Close all the windows of the blind except for his safe shooting zone. This will help keep him from getting silhouetted and help with safety.

Best of luck!

Thank you for all of that info. I do appreciate it.
He went through hunter safety with me 2 years ago and at the time he was 12. Now he is 14 soon to be 15. He does practice with firearms on a regular basis whether it is a pistol, shotgun, or 30-30. We have talked many times about the points you have made. I am big into safety and I would rather not go hunting if I question the safety than try to risk it. Unfortunately we do not have an elevated blind at this moment. He went hunting the past couple of years on another property but that has since been sold so now we are looking for a place to go. The back of our property has been brought up many times but I worry. I wish we had a cross bow but we do not. We do have a 20 gauge but I don't know how to fix it for deer. I know the last time he went hunting with grandpa the 1st time he did not take the shot because it was not a clear shot at the deer. The 2nd time he did not take the shot there was a horse in the area and he did not want anything to happen to it. So he is aware of things and things before he shots.

 

[yoderjac]

Sounds like a responsible kid. If you have a 20 gauge with a smooth bore, you can use rifled sabots. They are only effective out to about 50 yards, but much safer than a rifle in terms of how far they travel. Here is an example of a rifled slug for a 20 gauge: https://www.federalpremium.com/shotshell/truball-rifled-slug/11-PB209+RS.html I'm not endorsing this particular product, there are many brands. They can shoot a 1.5" group at 50 yards and have enough energy to kill a deer.

Bow hunting, with compound or crossbow, requires an additional skill set. Shots should be limited to 30 yards. The kill zone on a deer is more limited with archery equipment. There is more chance of wounding and not recovering a deer when learning. I'd suggest he get a good handle on firearm hunting before venturing into bow hunting. One of the most important things to consider when looking for a bow or crossbow is how quietly it shoots. Deer often "jump the string" (or drop their chest to the ground in preparation to bound) when they hear a sharp noise close by.

Hope this helps...

 

[Brutalfly]

Sounds like a responsible kid. If you have a 20 gauge with a smooth bore, you can use rifled sabots. They are only effective out to about 50 yards, but much safer than a rifle in terms of how far they travel. Here is an example of a rifled slug for a 20 gauge: https://www.federalpremium.com/shotshell/truball-rifled-slug/11-PB209+RS.html I'm not endorsing this particular product, there are many brands. They can shoot a 1.5" group at 50 yards and have enough energy to kill a deer.

Bow hunting, with compound or crossbow, requires an additional skill set. Shots should be limited to 30 yards. The kill zone on a deer is more limited with archery equipment. There is more chance of wounding and not recovering a deer when learning. I'd suggest he get a good handle on firearm hunting before venturing into bow hunting. One of the most important things to consider when looking for a bow or crossbow is how quietly it shoots. Deer often "jump the string" (or drop their chest to the ground in preparation to bound) when they hear a sharp noise close by.

Hope this helps...

All of this is great to know.
He is definitely responsible.
My daughter who is 12 is really wanting to get a deer too and she is just as responsible as he is. Thank goodness.
We are kind of new to hunting so we are being cautious with everything. We plan on field goose hunting when it is in season.
So with where we would like to sit and try to get a deer there is a game trail and we watch it every night and take the pictures every week.
With were we want to set a blind it is about 20 yards of the game trail.
With you being a Hunter's Education teacher and everything you have told me.
Would you hunt this property using the technique you described at a 20-30 yard distance?
Also we have a budget so what type of sight or scope would you use?

 

[yoderjac]

All of this is great to know.
He is definitely responsible.
My daughter who is 12 is really wanting to get a deer too and she is just as responsible as he is. Thank goodness.
We are kind of new to hunting so we are being cautious with everything. We plan on field goose hunting when it is in season.
So with where we would like to sit and try to get a deer there is a game trail and we watch it every night and take the pictures every week.
With were we want to set a blind it is about 20 yards of the game trail.
With you being a Hunter's Education teacher and everything you have told me.
Would you hunt this property using the technique you described at a 20-30 yard distance?
Also we have a budget so what type of sight or scope would you use?

I'm a pretty experienced hunter and have hunted pretty sensitive areas. We had a problem with an overpopulation of deer in northern Virginia (DC Metro area). I was one fo the founders of an organization called Suburban Whitetail Management of Northern Virginia that put experienced bow hunters on small suburban property where people were having landscaping damage.

From the looks of the map, you seem to be somewhere between suburban and rural with houses in the area. One thing to consider is the neighbors. Knowing their attitude to hunting is important. Do you have permission to track a wounded deer on a neighboring property if needed? It is better to ask before you decide to hunt than to deal with it later. Given what I see, I personally would have no issue hunting a property like you describe. I would have problem taking a youngster out to hunt this after making sure the setup was safe for them.

This is not a safety issue, but a success issue, but it is difficult to get within 20-30 yards of a deer without being detected. A blind does help with scent control, but even experienced bowhunters get winded from time to time. Provided your kids shooting skills allow them to get 2" groups with a 20 gauge at 50 yards, I would probably set the blind about 40 yards from the trail to give them a bit more distance.

As far as a sighting device goes, it depends on the weapon. Scopes with magnification are great for longer range shooting. But for inside 50 yards, I would consider a red-dot sight. You can get them fairly inexpensive. Shotguns with rifled barrels often are setup to mount a scope, but shotguns with a smooth bore generally are meant for small game and moving targets like pheasant or rabbits that are moving, so they often just have a front bead and no provision for mounting a sighting device. So, depending on the shotgun, finding a mounting device may be the biggest challenge.

A red-dot sight is not magnified. Once mounted on the shotgun, it is meant to be shot with both eyes open. It can be used for moving small game or for deer, so once it is setup you should be good for anything. It does not actually project anything on the target. You don't intentionally look through it like a scope. You just mount the gun and look at the game. A red dot is superimposed in your vision path. You put the dot on target and fire.

 

[yoderjac]

Here is a page of red dot sights at a range of prices: Red dot Sights

 

[Brutalfly]

Here is a page of red dot sights at a range of prices: Red dot Sights

I'm a pretty experienced hunter and have hunted pretty sensitive areas. We had a problem with an overpopulation of deer in northern Virginia (DC Metro area). I was one fo the founders of an organization called Suburban Whitetail Management of Northern Virginia that put experienced bow hunters on small suburban property where people were having landscaping damage.

From the looks of the map, you seem to be somewhere between suburban and rural with houses in the area. One thing to consider is the neighbors. Knowing their attitude to hunting is important. Do you have permission to track a wounded deer on a neighboring property if needed? It is better to ask before you decide to hunt than to deal with it later. Given what I see, I personally would have no issue hunting a property like you describe. I would have problem taking a youngster out to hunt this after making sure the setup was safe for them.

This is not a safety issue, but a success issue, but it is difficult to get within 20-30 yards of a deer without being detected. A blind does help with scent control, but even experienced bowhunters get winded from time to time. Provided your kids shooting skills allow them to get 2" groups with a 20 gauge at 50 yards, I would probably set the blind about 40 yards from the trail to give them a bit more distance.

As far as a sighting device goes, it depends on the weapon. Scopes with magnification are great for longer range shooting. But for inside 50 yards, I would consider a red-dot sight. You can get them fairly inexpensive. Shotguns with rifled barrels often are setup to mount a scope, but shotguns with a smooth bore generally are meant for small game and moving targets like pheasant or rabbits that are moving, so they often just have a front bead and no provision for mounting a sighting device. So, depending on the shotgun, finding a mounting device may be the biggest challenge.

A red-dot sight is not magnified. Once mounted on the shotgun, it is meant to be shot with both eyes open. It can be used for moving small game or for deer, so once it is setup you should be good for anything. It does not actually project anything on the target. You don't intentionally look through it like a scope. You just mount the gun and look at the game. A red dot is superimposed in your vision path. You put the dot on target and fire.

Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge. I do appreciate it. All of this info helps a lot.
I know when looking at the map the 10 acres to the left of where the blind will be belongs to my in-laws and the property at the top of where the blind will be belongs to another family member. The other properties have hunters on them but I haven't heard much out of them. They usually hunt someplace else.

We will definitely do some target practice before we do any hunting to make sure he can get that 2" grouping and make sure we have the right barrel. We definitely do not want to hunt without practicing from the distances. I will be looking into the red-dot sights that you provided a link to.

I am trying to figure out how I can elevate the ground blind but as of right now I can only build a 4 foot tall platform. If we shoot the way of the yellow path there is a couple areas of thick trees so will that help with the distance the ammo will go? I just worry about ricochet.

I do have a lot of questions. I just want to gain as much knowledge as I can and I would rather ask experienced people and learn. I am definitely absorbing all of this and will probably ask more.

 

[yoderjac]

If you are looking for a different shotgun with a rifled barrel, you may wan to look at an inexpensive single-shot 20 gauge break action 20 gauge. You did not mention the model of shot gun you have but you can buy a rifled barrel to many shotguns on teh market. Keep in mind, the slugs I posted the link to are for a smooth barrel and the rifling is on the slug. You use a smooth sabot for a shotgun with a rifled barrel. The plastic sabot engages the rifling in the barrel to make the bullet spin. At the low end, he should be good to 100 yards from an accuracy perspective with a rifled barrel. You can get more expensive guns good to 200 yards.

 

[yoderjac]

Yes, having trees as a background is a good thing to limit distance of travel. Most bullets are led and a ricochet off of a tree is not likely. A tree is a good backstop for a bullet when hunting. Keep in mind that safety is not one thing but a combination of things. With a good backstop and limiting your direction of fire, you may not need to elevate the blind.

Keep in mind, that a well placed shot is not the issue with the choice of firearm. It is an accidental discharge. If the muzzle is pointed upward and the the boy discharges the gun (intentionally or unintentionally) a shotgun slug will travel much less distance than a high powered rifle bullet.

 

[Brutalfly]

If you are looking for a different shotgun with a rifled barrel, you may wan to look at an inexpensive single-shot 20 gauge break action 20 gauge. You did not mention the model of shot gun you have but you can buy a rifled barrel to many shotguns on teh market. Keep in mind, the slugs I posted the link to are for a smooth barrel and the rifling is on the slug. You use a smooth sabot for a shotgun with a rifled barrel. The plastic sabot engages the rifling in the barrel to make the bullet spin. At the low end, he should be good to 100 yards from an accuracy perspective with a rifled barrel. You can get more expensive guns good to 200 yards.

I will be checking tonight after work to see what we have.

 

[Brutalfly]

So I did check the types of shotguns we have.
I did not have time to thoroughly look at the barrels but I assume they are both smooth barrels.
We have a Mossberg 500
And
A Maverick 88

If they are smooth barrels we get the rifled ammo and if it is a rifled barrel then we get smooth?

Also we want to use these for water fowl so the ammo won't hurt the gun will it?

 

[yoderjac]

So I did check the types of shotguns we have.
I did not have time to thoroughly look at the barrels but I assume they are both smooth barrels.
We have a Mossberg 500
And
A Maverick 88

If they are smooth barrels we get the rifled ammo and if it is a rifled barrel then we get smooth?

Also we want to use these for water fowl so the ammo won't hurt the gun will it?

Ok, you have several options depending on how deep your pocketbook is:

1) Buy another barrel for either the Mossberg 500 or Maverik 88. They sell rifled barrels with a cantilever mount for a scope or red dot. These run about $325 for either gun. You will then want to get a scope with rings. This should give you around 100 yards or so of accurate range for deer. You will want to buy sabot slugs as ammunition. The word "sabot", properly pronounced as "say-bow", is the French word for shoe. It is essentially a plastic sleeve that surrounds a smaller diameter projectile that fits a shotgun bore. It is generally attached to the wad. The plastic engages the rifling in the barrel which makes it spin. When the projectile leaves the barrel, the plastic sleeve peals back and disengages from the projectile. if you have the money to spend, this is probably your most flexible long term solution short of buying a new firearm. You can buy these barrels on-line with no FFL required or locally. No special paperwork is required. Because you are shooting longer distances, using a scope with this setup is the best option. The larger to the objective and tube and better the glass and coatings on a scope, the more light it will transmit to your eye, making it easier to shoot in low light. It can also be hard to see the reticle (cross hairs) in low light. A lighted reticle can help with this. You can buy scopes from under $100 to $3000 or more. Given the range of a 20 gauge, a lower end scope is reasonable. He just may have to pass on shots in lower light conditions.

2) Simply buy rifled slugs for your existing guns. You will want to take them to the range to determine maximum shooting distance. Different brands may group differently in different guns. A rifled slug is just what it sounds like. The led projectile is the full size of the shotgun bore. Angled striations are cut into the sides of the slug at an angle. This causes the the slug to spin to some degree. Because the slug is so large in diameter and the spin rate is so slow, it loses stability pretty quickly and begins to tumble. Beyond 50 yards most gun/slug combinations will become inaccurate. Some may become inaccurate at shorter ranges. I presume your Mossbergs are fairly new an not granddad's hand me downs. If I'm correct, they will have screw-in chokes. You probably have a full or extra full choke if you are using them for waterfowl. You will want a cylinder or improved cylinder choke for slugs. You want to avoid chokes tighter than modified. The firearm/choke/load combination may affect accuracy, so you can try the cylinder and improved cylinder with the same ammo to see if one is more accurate for you. Rifled slugs will not harm your firearm. The could harm a tight choke. Because this option has such short range, He probably doesn't need the magnification from a scope. A red dot sight that I described earlier is a better option. It can be used for waterfowl as well. I know the Mossberg 500 has some screws on top of the receiver that can be removed. There are third parties that sell mounts that will be secured using these screw holes. You just need to make sure the mount is for a Mossberg 500 and it fits the particular red dot you pick. I don't know if the Maverik receiver is tapped as well or not. You can look into that.

 

[yoderjac]

There is one more option that I would not recommend. That is using buckshot. Buckshot is very safe, but the range is very short and deer recovery is problematic. When a deer is hit, it usually runs. Buckshot does not exit a deer and there is rarely any blood trail to follow for recovery. Deer can run quite far before expiring. While slugs often don't exit, they have a single larger entry wound and typically supply more hydrostatic shock to a deer. They is a better chance of having a blood trail to follow and typically deer don't get quite as far as with buckshot before they expire.

 

[Brutalfly]

Awesome. Definitely some great options. I don't think we will go with option 3. It just does not sounds anything like what we want to do and we don't want the animal to suffer.

Right now I think our best bet would be option 2 and work towards option 1 and/or find a place for next year that is bigger that we can hunt. My budget for buying the stuff in option 1 is definitely not there. It might be there in the future. I wish we could use our 30-30 but I don't view it as safe enough for that. I am going to talk to him about all of the information you have provided and then pass it on to my wife and her dad. that way we are all in the know of what is going on. Fortunately he is a pretty good shot when it comes to things and if a deer comes into the distance we think is obtainable I think he can put it down. We are headed to Bass Pro this weekend so I will be checking out somethings before the season starts on the 15th.

 

[yoderjac]

Best of luck. In the right hands, even in the area you describe, a 30-30 could be safe, but when safety is your primary concern, with a kid, even a responsible kid, the shotgun is the safer option. My first firearm when I was a kid was an H&R single shot with an interchangeable barrel, 20 gauge shotgun and 30-30 rifle. I still have it. It is a fine caliber for hunting deer and the mild recoil helps instill good shooting habits.

 

[Brutalfly]

Thank you and thank you again for all of the great advice. I appreciate it.
I will definitely post back if we decide to hunt and if we get anything.

 

[Jerry-B-WI]

Jack has given you some good pointers. I'll say that shotgunning isn't really in my wheel house, but I think it would be your best bet for the shooting conditions you have.

The red dot would be an excellent choice, I use one myself on top of a Remington M700. They are easy to learn and quick to use. I have the SIG Romeo 5 that uses a simple AAA battery, and has a 2MOA dot that won't cover your whole target at 100 yds. You can buy AAA batteries at any convience store and they're easy to change. The sight is motion activated, so you don't have to remember to shut it off at the end of the day or turn it back on in the morning. Saves on battery life. You will have to manually adjust the intensity of the dot with the changing light conditions.

I have a friend who used a red dot for a few years and it was the type that used a coin battery. He either didn't put in a new battery at the start of season or forgot to turn it off at the end of the day. Middle of the season he had no sight to use and had to drive 25 miles one way to buy a new coin battery. Could ruin your season in a hurry.

 

[yoderjac]

Jack has given you some good pointers. I'll say that shotgunning isn't really in my wheel house, but I think it would be your best bet for the shooting conditions you have.

The red dot would be an excellent choice, I use one myself on top of a Remington M700. They are easy to learn and quick to use. I have the SIG Romeo 5 that uses a simple AAA battery, and has a 2MOA dot that won't cover your whole target at 100 yds. You can buy AAA batteries at any convience store and they're easy to change. The sight is motion activated, so you don't have to remember to shut it off at the end of the day or turn it back on in the morning. Saves on battery life. You will have to manually adjust the intensity of the dot with the changing light conditions.

I have a friend who used a red dot for a few years and it was the type that used a coin battery. He either didn't put in a new battery at the start of season or forgot to turn it off at the end of the day. Middle of the season he had no sight to use and had to drive 25 miles one way to buy a new coin battery. Could ruin your season in a hurry.

Good points! I always carry batteries for any electronics I use while hunting. Most of the scopes on my gun have an illuminated reticle at a minimum and require batteries. Always carry spares or you could ruin a hunt.

I got my first red-dot sight many years ago when I was building a turkey gun. This was before they commercially sold specialty turkey guns. I had a Weatherby Orion 12 gauge over and under with modified over improved cylinder that I used for grouse hunting. It was a great gun. I sent the barrel off to Briley to have screw-in chokes installed so I could put in an extra full when turkey hunting. I then had the rib tapped and installed a ProPoint red dot sight. It was a great turkey gun for that era. With both eyes open, I could just put the red dot on the neck, just under the head. The gun had limited range by today's turkey gun standards, but was long range for the time.

I found a great side benefit. I found wing-shooting much easier. I always had issues with alignment as you eye can't focus at two different distances at the same time. The red dot sight superimposes the dot in the same plane as the target, so you just swing the dot past to the proper lead and slap the trigger for wing-shooting.

 

[Kurt]

As suggested an elevated blind would increase safety and success. Check out Cage Blinds sometime. For whatever reason I just hate using shotguns and slugs. I could see using a suppressed 223 in a populated area from an elevated blind.