Is it better? Does it even matter?

[dogghr]

Been a good read with lots of varying opinions based on ownership acres and property locations. I think larger acreage allows one to not have to depend as much influence with surrounding neighbors. Funny I was asked by one of my golfing buddies what I did when I went to the farm. I stammered because it is difficult answer to a non hunter/manager. I finally said I planted more productive crops than most cattle get, cut trees to allow new understory, hunted some, and just sat and thought a lot. He just looked at me saying nothing, and I'm sure he didn't understand the fun of all that.
And so it is with most neighbors, they just spend their year till hunting season begins and they go dump their corn or watch out their window, and while they may pass smaller bucks, they just want the freezer filled. Their land and option. But they can learn. I've shown more than one of my friends how to plant a brassica plot, once I explained what the hell a brassica is! And they soak it up and love it, but to manage as most do on forums like this, is a limited group.
But I do wonder, do we make it too complicated. If we hunted smart, would all the other management be that necessary? I always bring up here my years of time in our 4 bowhunting only counties in this state. No ag, heavy predation, poaching strong, mixed hardwood of mainly mature tree. Yet with in theory no management of adjacent hunters or the land, mature deer were the norm. Low numbers, so you had to be patient, but if you spent the time, hunted the hard places, and found the edges, success was very good.
So do we spend too much time trying manipulate deer patterns, deer ages, deer numbers to improve our situation where if we just read the land better, hunted smart, were more the woods people we used to be, then would our success be just as good? Especially on less than 100 ac ? While I have no desire to change my management time, I sometimes question my efforts.
But anyways, just some rambling before I head out the door to overseed my clover plots and cut some trees! I'm addicted regardless.

 

[Chainsaw]

X-farmerDan you have really covered a lot of "it depends" in one post and I agree there are a lot of it depends in everything we do and the answer varies for each person and each property and what is perfect for a person today may not apply next year or even a few months from now. With all of the agreements aside I very much disagree that we as landowners are only influencing our deer hunting by a few percentage points of improvement. In some cases we can and do have a huge influence on improving our deer hunting properties. And by huge I mean it can be made to house older deer than the area norm and many times the population as the area norm and have many times the daytime movement as the area norm. Will the big bucks move and be killed off the property? Absolutely they will some years and other years maybe not. I'm not a percentage expert, I think overall deer hunting improvements in terms of doubling, tripling or even ten times better hunting than non-managed land but what percent improvement having the opportunity to shoot 5 older deer in one season here versus hunters on un-managed lands that didn't see any buck all season. What percentage of improvement would that be? I have no clue. And of course what happens here may not happen given the same efforts elsewhere. Maybe where you are all of the fixed factors or personal priorities limit improvements to only a few percent. Yikes on that one!

Span of control, age structure, social order and managed habitat are surely related and interdependent on each other and together it is a tremendously huge subject. Habitat is a major driver of span of control, age structure and social order and combined with actual span of control, "the hunting can be amazing" to quote Mennoniteman. Habitat influences everything hunting in some way and is the major tool in our hunting efforts bag. Habitat even influences our perceived and effective span of control. If we want to improve the habitat of our property the sky is the limit. Improvement can be limited by our individual priorities as in everything.

More to come on this discussion Xfarmer--like how habitat is a major creator of age structure and social order and perceived span of control.

Thanks for joining the conversation 3C, always glad to hear your take on things.

 

[Buckly]

I’ve always been of the opinion that cover was the biggest thing as far as habitat management, however the two highly respected consultants I enlisted to help with my property both said that lack of food was the major limiting factor I had and I’m surrounded by a lot of Ag. I increased the food by a factor of 5 and deer numbers and hunting quality skyrocketed. The habitat manipulation of hinge cuts and trails merely puts those higher number of deer in my lap. There’s only so much room on a property. The other deer go where they must and that would be on others property. In a way, if you have neighbors that never do anything on their properties except during hunting season then most of the year of. no pressure is kind of a manement tool. If they shoot the first deer they see and this puts the older deer in defense mode. That’s also a kind of Management Neighbors I had always accused me of hogging all the deer. Lol. They saw nothing so all the deer must be on mine but, they never ever did anything to change their situation. They just complained. Even some well meaning neighbors never got on board It’s just beyond what most people can comprehend really. So, I think if you get a few on board that’s great but just my opinion it won’t effect you or the herd in any significant way.

 

[Mennoniteman]

I’ve always been of the opinion that cover was the biggest thing as far as habitat management, however the two highly respected consultants I enlisted to help with my property both said that lack of food was the major limiting factor I had and I’m surrounded by a lot of Ag. I increased the food by a factor of 5 and deer numbers and hunting quality skyrocketed. The habitat manipulation of hinge cuts and trails merely puts those higher number of deer in my lap. There’s only so much room on a property. The other deer go where they must and that would be on others property. In a way, if you have neighbors that never do anything on their properties except during hunting season then most of the year of. no pressure is kind of a manement tool. If they shoot the first deer they see and this puts the older deer in defense mode. That’s also a kind of Management Neighbors I had always accused me of hogging all the deer. Lol. They saw nothing so all the deer must be on mine but, they never ever did anything to change their situation. They just complained. Even some well meaning neighbors never got on board It’s just beyond what most people can comprehend really. So, I think if you get a few on board that’s great but just my opinion it won’t effect you or the herd in any significant way.

I agree with your thoughts. As to the value of cover on a specific property, the smaller the property, the more that cover increases in value, and to add to that, the higher the pressure of human presence, the more that cover increases in value. To illustrate; if a hunter has 900 acres of mature open oak trees that nobody ever enters, and a 100 acres of food sources in the middle to hunt over, the lack of cover is the least important issue. On the other hand, if a hunter has only 10 acres total, surrounded by various farming and woodland, thick cover becomes the most important issue, one that will make or break the deer hunting opportunities on that small property.

 

[Mennoniteman]

There's a lot of deep thinking going on here! I like it, but I'm not sure I'm able to keep up or offer a valid thought. Never has stopped me, though. I'll reiterate a basic principal of my beliefs about habitat and it's effect on whatever hunting goals one might pursue. You have to inventory and quantify the resources important to whatever it is you're trying to do. The ultimate goal is different for different sportsmen.
Chainsaw, when you ask your question about having a good property (forgive me for shortening the theme) surround by poor property, doesn't one need to consider span of control -- how many acres are inside your fence? I think that's important in relation to how far you think the individuals in a herd will move, generally, and in the most important time of the year.

I'm fascinated by collared deer studies and findings. All we can speak too with any confidence are generalities. Too often I think we think about the exceptions. The studies will generate great great headlines and remembering's after reading of a big buck that never left the "home" acres, or, the one that traveled 10 miles in one day during the rut. Generally, though, the area is much larger than than the minimum and much smaller than the long distance traveler covers For a lot of us, the travel paths cover a lot more ground than a person of average income can afford.

So, we try to push a few percentage points of advantage our way by employing excellent deer habitat management, and personal hunting skill techniques. How much we can shave the odds is a question I know I can't answer. I think we like to believe we are better than we really are, for -- here it comes -- those deer are going to move regardless of what we do.

Don't get me wrong. We can create more successful opportunity, maybe improving our odds of success from 50-50 to 60-40 or from 70-30 to 75 - 25. But, I have to wonder, if social order is an important factor in how deer move where, why, and when. Does age structure have much to do with social order? Can we control that? I think it's dependent on span of control, or, maybe span of cooperation between contiguous landowners. And, to me, that might be the most important consideration, even before we start to talk about habitat management. Perhaps controversial....

And I think all of this changes with, to keep it simple, latitude. I think it's much different in the cold environs above the 40th parallel. And even then, there are many different geologic regions that drive the resource limiting experiences each of us have.

So, I guess I think the answer to the question(s) is, it depends. Once you figure out what it depends on for you, then you're on the way to a solid answer. Let's let it go there 'cause, after reading this, it just sounds like an old man rambling on and on.

You are absolutely correct in that the "span of control" (or in simple terms, how many acres of land) this theoretical hunter has will make some difference on the impact that his neighbors management practices will have upon his QDM program.

However, I, and probably most hunters on the forum here, disagree totally that QDM only changes a deer herd by a few percentage points. We're not talking peanuts here, QDM is huge, as all of the instructional materials out there tells us, it's an absolutely amazing game changer to deer hunting, where sitting in your stand on your own land becomes an experience similar to an expensive guided hunt at in a remote location. I believe that you almost have to see it in action firsthand to fully appreciate the extent and degree of difference that it makes to a property, and to see that as little as a few acres can benefit bigtime from these principles, with the benefits increasing from there as the amount of acres increases. On smaller acres tags can be filled every year, but the bar will need to be lower than the 100's of acres type of land managers.

I have with firsthand experience seen a friend purchase 500 acres that was grossly overhunted, the hunters were spending a lot of hours for little return, and the property had zero management, with a deer herd that was in the lower single digits on 500 acres. My friend put that property in QDM, and within 5 years he had a healthy herd of 40 deer, +/-, and is shooting P&Y deer with little effort, and he's only getting started. I have multiple friends like this who manage 300+ acres with similar results, and I'm sure other guys on here have seen many examples of this type over the years.

We are not trying to push a few percentage points of advantage our way by employing excellent deer habitat management, and personal hunting skill techniques, we are investing our time because the returns are huge, and grossly underestimated by many.

 

[Chainsaw]

I’ve always been of the opinion that cover was the biggest thing as far as habitat management, however the two highly respected consultants I enlisted to help with my property both said that lack of food was the major limiting factor I had and I’m surrounded by a lot of Ag. I increased the food by a factor of 5 and deer numbers and hunting quality skyrocketed. The habitat manipulation of hinge cuts and trails merely puts those higher number of deer in my lap. There’s only so much room on a property. The other deer go where they must and that would be on others property. In a way, if you have neighbors that never do anything on their properties except during hunting season then most of the year of. no pressure is kind of a manement tool. If they shoot the first deer they see and this puts the older deer in defense mode. That’s also a kind of Management Neighbors I had always accused me of hogging all the deer. Lol. They saw nothing so all the deer must be on mine but, they never ever did anything to change their situation. They just complained. Even some well meaning neighbors never got on board It’s just beyond what most people can comprehend really. So, I think if you get a few on board that’s great but just my opinion it won’t effect you or the herd in any significant way.

Here most properties are sorely lacking for food. And as you say Buckly most people just complain and do nothing. Some are lazy in everything they do, and some just don't care that much but a few, a few are just like us on the forum and a very few just don't know what can be done but they care. The last two types are the neighbors I want to join in with. Back to the lacking in food most bucks on most properties in this neighborhood exhibit poor antler growth year after year due to lacking in food and age as well. Due to our heavy snows though and the ridiculous cost of growing crops to feed the deer thru the winter growing more than say ten or so acres of food plots just plain cost too much for my budget and around Jan 15 it would get buried in deep snow anyhow. Planted corn left standing for winter mostly stays above the snow but it would likely draw hundreds of deer in a few years that just visit for the winter then leave behind them a very over browsed landscape come spring. Logically the cheap and easy answer here is to plant around ten acres in LC mix per property, rent out the tillable property cheap in exchange for some control of what gets planted and more importantly natural food growth must be encouraged and all projects to that end need to be executed fully. In getting that sun to work for us it grows much of deer food and cover needs. My plan to share and recommend to the right neighbors is to fully release their fruit and nut trees, log extremely heavily where trees have been high graded for generations and crop tree release saving only the best veneer candidates where and if such stands exist.

Perceived property size will increase due to thickness of cover and diversity of growth. Deer when jumped are content to just get out of the way versus run to the next hill and beyond. Open canopy cover makes our span of control much more effective than closed canopy cover. Of course it doesn't make it larger but its affect to the deer is that of an increased span of control versus a decreased span. And of course three neighbors working together really do increase the span of control.

Back to food again we can only squeeze so much food out of each acre of land. Thus we constantly have to shape the deer population to match the amount of food the property is capable of producing at a sustainable level. Does will be shot early in the season starting this fall. For whatever reason this area has the ability to and does repopulate at a much faster rate than the state norm and to a level a few times higher than the state norm.

Social order will be influenced and the number of mature buck kingdoms will be increased thru the use of setting up habitat blocks which Mennoniteman explains very well in his "Habitat Block" thread in the habitat section of this forum. Some call it intensive deer management, a term I think coined by DR. Kroll many years ago. It is the most labor intensive, and costly form of deer management but I will try to convince at least two of my neighboring land owners that it works and I plan to share info on how to set up their property with the least amount of expense and intrusion. Like anything it can be done all at once which yields quick results but shuts down property activity for a year or it can be implemented gradually which won't see quick results but hunting would not get any worse than they have it right now. It is important to note though that it takes five years to grow a five year old deer and even longer to grow a second generation five year old deer that could affect the epigenetic inheritance of the next generation of 5 year old bucks and does. So the quick results way is really pretty long in payback as it is. Also Once done this will have been the quickest and most cost effective way here to maximize food production with plenty of security cover as a bonus. Some areas will need to be cleansed of invasives before any other activity in those areas takes place, that's just a reality.

For my property hunting I'm comfortable with this decision to join up with the right neighbors; Best case the hunting in the neighborhood will improve and it probably will be a lot of fun participating in the transformation of the neighborhood deer hunting. Worst case hunting won't improve much but at least other landowners will be helping to actively manage the does and grow more food for the neighborhood deer at least for a time. It is my hope though that deer like this that used to be shot on first sight will be passed up.

So that they might become deer like this that may also be passed up like it has been on this property.


Passing on both bucks is a bit of a reach but passing on just the age in the first pic is doable for most and would really change the hunting on their lands and likely mine as well. Wish us luck, it won't be easy.It really is simple but not easy.

Note--found one of the above deer's sheds last week; He has some great mass measurements. By next season he could surpass the larger ten that also lives mostly on this property and made it thru hunting seasons end.

 

[Mennoniteman]

Here most properties are sorely lacking for food. And as you say Buckly most people just complain and do nothing. Some are lazy in everything they do, and some just don't care that much but a few, a few are just like us on the forum and a very few just don't know what can be done but they care. The last two types are the neighbors I want to join in with. Back to the lacking in food most bucks on most properties in this neighborhood exhibit poor antler growth year after year due to lacking in food and age as well. Due to our heavy snows though and the ridiculous cost of growing crops to feed the deer thru the winter growing more than say ten or so acres of food plots just plain cost too much for my budget and around Jan 15 it would get buried in deep snow anyhow. Planted corn left standing for winter mostly stays above the snow but it would likely draw hundreds of deer in a few years that just visit for the winter then leave behind them a very over browsed landscape come spring. Logically the cheap and easy answer here is to plant around ten acres in LC mix per property, rent out the tillable property cheap in exchange for some control of what gets planted and more importantly natural food growth must be encouraged and all projects to that end need to be executed fully. In getting that sun to work for us it grows much of deer food and cover needs. My plan to share and recommend to the right neighbors is to fully release their fruit and nut trees, log extremely heavily where trees have been high graded for generations and crop tree release saving only the best veneer candidates where and if such stands exist.

Perceived property size will increase due to thickness of cover and diversity of growth. Deer when jumped are content to just get out of the way versus run to the next hill and beyond. Open canopy cover makes our span of control much more effective than closed canopy cover. Of course it doesn't make it larger but its affect to the deer is that of an increased span of control versus a decreased span. And of course three neighbors working together really do increase the span of control.

Back to food again we can only squeeze so much food out of each acre of land. Thus we constantly have to shape the deer population to match the amount of food the property is capable of producing at a sustainable level. Does will be shot early in the season starting this fall. For whatever reason this area has the ability to and does repopulate at a much faster rate than the state norm and to a level a few times higher than the state norm.

Social order will be influenced and the number of mature buck kingdoms will be increased thru the use of setting up habitat blocks which Mennoniteman explains very well in his "Habitat Block" thread in the habitat section of this forum. Some call it intensive deer management, a term I think coined by DR. Kroll many years ago. It is the most labor intensive, and costly form of deer management but I will try to convince at least two of my neighboring land owners that it works and I plan to share info on how to set up their property with the least amount of expense and intrusion. Like anything it can be done all at once which yields quick results but shuts down property activity for a year or it can be implemented gradually which won't see quick results but hunting would not get any worse than they have it right now. It is important to note though that it takes five years to grow a five year old deer and even longer to grow a second generation five year old deer that could affect the epigenetic inheritance of the next generation of 5 year old bucks and does. So the quick results way is really pretty long in payback as it is. Also Once done this will have been the quickest and most cost effective way here to maximize food production with plenty of security cover as a bonus. Some areas will need to be cleansed of invasives before any other activity in those areas takes place, that's just a reality.

For my property hunting I'm comfortable with this decision to join up with the right neighbors; Best case the hunting in the neighborhood will improve and it probably will be a lot of fun participating in the transformation of the neighborhood deer hunting. Worst case hunting won't improve much but at least other landowners will be helping to actively manage the does and grow more food for the neighborhood deer at least for a time. It is my hope though that deer like this that used to be shot on first sight will be passed up.
View attachment 15306
So that they might become deer like this that may also be passed up like it has been on this property.
View attachment 15305

Passing on both bucks is a bit of a reach but passing on just the age in the first pic is doable for most and would really change the hunting on their lands and likely mine as well. Wish us luck, it won't be easy.It really is simple but not easy.

Note--found one of the above deer's sheds last week; He has some great mass measurements. By next season he could surpass the larger ten that also lives mostly on this property and made it thru hunting seasons end.

Wow! Deer management 101 right here.