Is it better? Does it even matter?

[Chainsaw]

It seems to be a common belief and there are articles authored by true experts stating that it is better to own a well managed deer property surrounded by un-managed deer properties rather than managed deer properties. The premise usually cited is that many of the area deer including most of the older bucks will end up on the better managed property once the hunting pressure kicks in. However if the deer habitat on the un-managed surrounding properties is in poor shape with a closed canopy, poor nut and fruit production and an under story of almost pure invasive plants offering very little food and no secure cover to protect the fawn crop from predators where does that give the better deer habitat the advantage? Is it really better to having a poorly nourished neighborhood herd moving onto your property during fall and winter? Could it be that the better managed property is merely feeding the non resident deer all winter and thus depleting the property’s browse bank leaving the resident property deer with less nourishing food? Could it also be that the better managed property is realizing a buck fawn recruitment rate many times higher than the surrounding properties only to have the buck fawns disburse as yearlings and be replaced with fewer buck yearlings and from under nourished properties to boot? I recently thought it was better to be the only well managed deer property in an area of poorly managed deer properties; now I’m not so sure.


In the other scenario with all deer properties managed well and producing food and cover at high rates would the total deer recruitment be higher and the deer healthier and have a better chance of reaching their genetic potential? And would the original better managed deer property no longer draw most of the deer from surrounding properties but rather might be sharing a healthier and more mature population? Assuming the un-managed deer properties are not currently growing bucks to a mature and fully developed condition but would if properly managed, would all of the property owners then have a chance that a well developed and mature buck from a surrounding property would travel through all properties rather than just the un-managed properties? In the end would the original well managed property have better hunting or worse hunting than they originally had?



In the case of all properties letting young bucks walk or not then the answer seems obvious that all deer hunting properties would have more deer shooting opportunity if all let young bucks walk. And having everyone equal in hunting practices would seemingly result in the original good habitat property that also had stood alone in low impact hunting strategies having less shooting opportunity. A well managed deer property though includes well managed deer habitat. And if everyone had the same well managed habitat versus all but the well managed property having poor habitat then would it result in less shooting opportunities at quality deer for the original well managed property or could it be more?



What do you all think? Is it better to have a well managed deer property with excellent deer habitat surrounded by un-managed deer properties with poorly managed deer habitat or is it better to have a well managed deer property with excellent deer habitat surrounded by other well managed deer properties with likewise excellent deer habitat? And further does it even matter because most other property owners don’t care like most on this forum do and thus likely wouldn’t put in the effort required to make their property into good deer habitat even if they understood what how to do it.

Edit---MODs meant to post in general discussion but didn't do it correctly. Can it n=be moved? Thank you!

 

[Native Hunter]

Some surrounding properties have good attributes for deer, even though they aren't being managed for deer. Examples of this are:

• Crop fields that help feed deer
• Land let go fallow and reverting to thicket, etc.
• Timber cutting at various places, providing food and cover
• Even closed canopy forests in my area generally have several oak trees, and deer will visit them at night to harvest the acorns.

These activities are constantly going on around us. The deer benefit from them even though that is not the intent of the landowners.

I believe that well managed deer properties is more than just habitat. It's designing things so that you will be able to hunt the deer without being detected - and drawing them to the property at the right time of the year.

The food plots and fruit trees probably have little impact in the overall nutrition of a deer during the year. However, if done correctly, it could help you get the shot you would not otherwise have had.

While food and cover are a big part of my management plan, there is one part that is bigger - having the oldest buck in the area standing in front of me sometime during daylight in hunting season. That is the true essence of designing a deer hunting property.

 

[Chainsaw]

Some surrounding properties have good attributes for deer, even though they aren't being managed for deer. Examples of this are:

• Crop fields that help feed deer
• Land let go fallow and reverting to thicket, etc.
• Timber cutting at various places, providing food and cover
• Even closed canopy forests in my area generally have several oak trees, and deer will visit them at night to harvest the acorns.

These activities are constantly going on around us. The deer benefit from them even though that is not the intent of the landowners.

I believe that well managed deer properties is more than just habitat. It's designing things so that you will be able to hunt the deer without being detected - and drawing them to the property at the right time of the year.

The food plots and fruit trees probably have little impact in the overall nutrition of a deer during the year. However, if done correctly, it could help you get the shot you would not otherwise have had.

While food and cover are a big part of my management plan, there is one part that is bigger - having the oldest buck in the area standing in front of me sometime during daylight in hunting season. That is the true essence of designing a deer hunting property.

I see your point about the oldest buck in the area standing in front of me in daylight as being most important. However if that buck is a malnutrition five year old 200 plus lb dressed fork horn it isn't so great. Now here food plots and fruit trees make a huge difference in how a deer prospers. In land not managed for deer habitat today deer look like they could be blown over with a twenty mile an hour breeze whereas in good habitat with the appropriate population they look like Olympic athletes.

Windfalls like neighbors that log extra heavy and don't hunt or non-hunting properties with mature oak trees are a great thing that we have not yet experienced here. The same thing regarding land let go fallow--it just isn't happening here unintentionally.

 

[Native Hunter]

I see your point about the oldest buck in the area standing in front of me in daylight as being most important. However if that buck is a malnutrition five year old 200 plus lb dressed fork horn it isn't so great. Now here food plots and fruit trees make a huge difference in how a deer prospers. In land not managed for deer habitat today deer look like they could be blown over with a twenty mile an hour breeze whereas in good habitat with the appropriate population they look like Olympic athletes.

Windfalls like neighbors that log extra heavy and don't hunt or non-hunting properties with mature oak trees are a great thing that we have not yet experienced here. The same thing regarding land let go fallow--it just isn't happening here unintentionally.

Dave, all of those things I mentioned are present to some extent around me, but any place with good deer habitat is likely to have people hunting it. The habitat weakness around me is the lack of a big wilderness area. That is something that will never change. I think places like that are an important aspect of getting bucks to an older age.

I've seen a few malnourished looking deer show up in the past and always wondered where they came from. I think that is happening less now that crops are becoming more prevalent in the area. Deer should be able to travel just a few miles in any direction and find some soybean and corn fields around me.

 

[Chainsaw]

Our properties as expected are so different. This entire area is loaded with corn and soybean fields and they help but mostly only in the summer and early fall. It is a good thing but it doesn't make up for poor browse as browse is needed after the combines go thru. Once the combines go thru for the farmers that are careful they leave nothing, maybe a kernel or two per sq. ft. They are so efficient. And maybe because the cold weather follows the combine so quickly cover crops are rarely planted after corn or soybeans.

 

[Gator]

Scenario 1 makes for easier hunting but not the best deer herd health. Only people like on this forum care about herd health, most just care about shooting a better buck than the neighbor (or more). Quit reading so called expert articles....ha

 

[George]

The more the merrier.

G

 

[dogghr]

I guess in ag land with plenty of great food, it isn't important to have adjacent good properties. But in a mostly forested area like mine, then everything is more important as far as food is concerned. So I like farmers that cover crop even tho it competes with my plantings. I like the adjacent guy logging his property. But what I really like adjacent to me is stupid hunting as that is why they come to my low pressure small time property. I'm like Gator, most deer self proclaimed gurus are like polititians, they just keep talking to hear themselves talk. Exception may be Steve B. All I know is I compete against 2, hundred acre loggings, 30+ ac of alfalfa, another of corn, who knows how many piles of corn, and I pass shooter bucks that supposedly the others have never even seen, all in a less than ideal county for trophy bucks.

 

[j-bird]

It all boils down to safety and food. The issue I think we wrestle with is being able to provide one without adversely affecting the other. I think in many cases we are too active on our properties for the deer to take full advantage. We enjoy the work and as such we do not limit our activities.

Teddy Roosevelt said, "Conservation is a matter of immensity and not intensity" I think at times we loose sight of that and we tend to be too "intense".

 

[rusty1034]

That’s a tough one Chainsaw. I have to believe that you would welcome being surrounded by folks who manage their land and their herd to the extent you do. Especially if they let em get as old as you are able to. At this point in my deer education, I’m of the believe that age is the most important piece of the growing big deer puzzle.

To the contrary, having a large well managed piece, surrounded by marginal habitat certainly allows one to carry a comparatively larger herd, both in population, and the all important “inches”. Unless the property is large enough to keep the ones with “inches” from wandering in front of a neighboring tree stand, then one most likely has to deal with that type of “loss”.

My piece is about 90 acres, and is in the very early stages of some quality habitat management. The properties surrounding me have no habitat management that I’m aware of. I like to think that the neighbors let the little ones pass, but I have very little information as to what is harvested around me. My gut feeling is that most folks around me don’t want their tags going unfilled, and their standards drop through the season.

Because of that situation, I suppose I’d vote for having quality habitat and management surrounded by folks of a like mind.

Thanks for your deer habitat philosophy quiz !

Rusty




Sent from my iPad using Deer Hunter Forum

 

[Chainsaw]

Scenario 1 makes for easier hunting but not the best deer herd health. Only people like on this forum care about herd health, most just care about shooting a better buck than the neighbor (or more). Quit reading so called expert articles....ha

You are right Gator. I figure that anyone that does this stuff for a living is as expert as they can get. I do keep in in mind however that only 10 percent are in the top tier of the field. With that said while many of their ideas may not apply to this property they do get me thinking. And right now I'm thinking that it pays to share habitat info with like minded neighbors. It benefits them and benefits me.

 

[Chainsaw]

I guess in ag land with plenty of great food, it isn't important to have adjacent good properties. But in a mostly forested area like mine, then everything is more important as far as food is concerned. So I like farmers that cover crop even tho it competes with my plantings. I like the adjacent guy logging his property. But what I really like adjacent to me is stupid hunting as that is why they come to my low pressure small time property. I'm like Gator, most deer self proclaimed gurus are like polititians, they just keep talking to hear themselves talk. Exception may be Steve B. All I know is I compete against 2, hundred acre loggings, 30+ ac of alfalfa, another of corn, who knows how many piles of corn, and I pass shooter bucks that supposedly the others have never even seen, all in a less than ideal county for trophy bucks.

I agree dogghr, Steve B is in the top ten percent for sure. We experience some of the same things you are experiencing but on a lesser scale so far. Most years we have not grown corn yet I can't recall seeing a single deer we shot that didn't have corn in its stomach. We haven't checked them all but have checked a lot of them. And you are absolutely right, stupid hunters on surrounding lands make the game pretty easy.

 

[Chainsaw]

It all boils down to safety and food. The issue I think we wrestle with is being able to provide one without adversely affecting the other. I think in many cases we are too active on our properties for the deer to take full advantage. We enjoy the work and as such we do not limit our activities.

Teddy Roosevelt said, "Conservation is a matter of immensity and not intensity" I think at times we loose sight of that and we tend to be too "intense".

As long as I'm finished working in the woods by September the deer don't seem to mind my working there. With the amount of woods though and being even a little careful hate to admit one OLDER person doesn't bother them that much. A big chainsaw day these days is two tanks of gas and most days are only one but never less yet.

 

[Chainsaw]

That’s a tough one Chainsaw. I have to believe that you would welcome being surrounded by folks who manage their land and their herd to the extent you do. Especially if they let em get as old as you are able to. At this point in my deer education, I’m of the believe that age is the most important piece of the growing big deer puzzle.

To the contrary, having a large well managed piece, surrounded by marginal habitat certainly allows one to carry a comparatively larger herd, both in population, and the all important “inches”. Unless the property is large enough to keep the ones with “inches” from wandering in front of a neighboring tree stand, then one most likely has to deal with that type of “loss”.

My piece is about 90 acres, and is in the very early stages of some quality habitat management. The properties surrounding me have no habitat management that I’m aware of. I like to think that the neighbors let the little ones pass, but I have very little information as to what is harvested around me. My gut feeling is that most folks around me don’t want their tags going unfilled, and their standards drop through the season.

Because of that situation, I suppose I’d vote for having quality habitat and management surrounded by folks of a like mind.

Thanks for your deer habitat philosophy quiz !

Rusty
Sent from my iPad using Deer Hunter Forum

Rusty, because you have seen the property and have neighbors with similar habits as I it was especially interesting to receive your response to my riddle. Your response and everyone else has solidified in my mind which direction to head. There are so many people in town that had the absolute worst deer hunting year ever and some of them have a lot of hunting experience. The area properties have become too past the ideal or even acceptable succession stage for deer to thrive and multiply. Couple that with invasives and better combine driver habits of recent and there just isn't the huge amount of food for deer that was here ten years ago.

Most of the area people only spend time in the woods in the fall so they don't see how there is almost zero food left in the woods after winter and they don't see the deer up close as they struggle to make it thru March and April. By the time fall comes of course the deer are fat and looking very good except for the scrawny antlers on most of them. An evening drive around town this week would show distant field views of from 50 to 200 or more deer so most people figure all is well again. However nothing has changed since fall so those that had a poor season in 2018 for the most part will have a poor season in 2019.

I haven't had my co-op meeting with the neighborhood yet for various reasons as I struggle to get all of my ducks in a row first as I decide what to share with neighbors and what not to. It has to happen soon as everyday I learn something that I learned a long time ago and forgot ten years ago. If it keeps up I won't have much understanding to share.

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses;they helped me sort his out. And don't worry about me dogghr; I feel a responsibility to teach responsible friends,neighbors,and general town folk about managing their habitat for deer but do not feel any obligation to improve their hunting skills. And anyhow if I tried they would consider me nuts anyhow.

 

[Mennoniteman]

IMO the best scenario by far would be for all the properties adjacent to this theoretical perfectly managed deer hunting property to also be comprised of great wildlife habitat and QDM. There are five different reasons to arrive at this conclusion; #1, Any deer coming from the neighbors (mostly bucks during the rut) are going to be bigger and healthier. #2, Deer aren't any more apt to leave your place (mostly bucks during the rut) than if it were poor habitat, poor habitat has no food there, but good QDM has a full capacity deer herd so that there's no room for doe family groups to set up house there. #3, Genetics in the neighborhood is apt to improve more than with no QDM. #4, Neighbors have no incentive to hunt your property lines & slightly over your property lines. #5, (this is the big one) Great habitat all around makes all of the deer on both sides of the property line move less because of all of the above reasons, which gives you a better chance of getting the biggest buck that lives on your side in front of you during daylight hours in hunting season.
In my experiences in the different places we hunt our deer travel less from one property to another than what I'm reading about other people's experiences, and I attribute that to quality habitat all around the perimeter of our hunting areas. Our cameras and our neighbors cameras have different deer on them most of the time, so I guess our deer could be considered as homebodies.

 

[X-farmerdan]

There's a lot of deep thinking going on here! I like it, but I'm not sure I'm able to keep up or offer a valid thought. Never has stopped me, though. I'll reiterate a basic principal of my beliefs about habitat and it's effect on whatever hunting goals one might pursue. You have to inventory and quantify the resources important to whatever it is you're trying to do. The ultimate goal is different for different sportsmen.
Chainsaw, when you ask your question about having a good property (forgive me for shortening the theme) surround by poor property, doesn't one need to consider span of control -- how many acres are inside your fence? I think that's important in relation to how far you think the individuals in a herd will move, generally, and in the most important time of the year.

I'm fascinated by collared deer studies and findings. All we can speak too with any confidence are generalities. Too often I think we think about the exceptions. The studies will generate great great headlines and remembering's after reading of a big buck that never left the "home" acres, or, the one that traveled 10 miles in one day during the rut. Generally, though, the area is much larger than than the minimum and much smaller than the long distance traveler covers For a lot of us, the travel paths cover a lot more ground than a person of average income can afford.

So, we try to push a few percentage points of advantage our way by employing excellent deer habitat management, and personal hunting skill techniques. How much we can shave the odds is a question I know I can't answer. I think we like to believe we are better than we really are, for -- here it comes -- those deer are going to move regardless of what we do.

Don't get me wrong. We can create more successful opportunity, maybe improving our odds of success from 50-50 to 60-40 or from 70-30 to 75 - 25. But, I have to wonder, if social order is an important factor in how deer move where, why, and when. Does age structure have much to do with social order? Can we control that? I think it's dependent on span of control, or, maybe span of cooperation between contiguous landowners. And, to me, that might be the most important consideration, even before we start to talk about habitat management. Perhaps controversial....

And I think all of this changes with, to keep it simple, latitude. I think it's much different in the cold environs above the 40th parallel. And even then, there are many different geologic regions that drive the resource limiting experiences each of us have.

So, I guess I think the answer to the question(s) is, it depends. Once you figure out what it depends on for you, then you're on the way to a solid answer. Let's let it go there 'cause, after reading this, it just sounds like an old man rambling on and on.

 

[j-bird]

As long as I'm finished working in the woods by September the deer don't seem to mind my working there. With the amount of woods though and being even a little careful hate to admit one OLDER person doesn't bother them that much. A big chainsaw day these days is two tanks of gas and most days are only one but never less yet.

And see ...here...it is a big deal. With very little cover, activity can bump deer and make them move 1/2 mile. So when your looking for trying to get those older bucks to bed close to you...with only 30% cover and the does taking what they can...that doesn't leave much room for those bucks. If your a supporter of the "depth of cover" mantra....I'm screwed. With all my cover being in narrow strips and small blocks of 10 acres or less...it just isn't there. My deer don;t mover "deeper" into the cover...because it isn't there. They run 1/2 mile to another property. So I think the area and habitat cover have a big impact as well.

 

[Chainsaw]

IMO the best scenario by far would be for all the properties adjacent to this theoretical perfectly managed deer hunting property to also be comprised of great wildlife habitat and QDM. There are five different reasons to arrive at this conclusion; #1, Any deer coming from the neighbors (mostly bucks during the rut) are going to be bigger and healthier. #2, Deer aren't any more apt to leave your place (mostly bucks during the rut) than if it were poor habitat, poor habitat has no food there, but good QDM has a full capacity deer herd so that there's no room for doe family groups to set up house there. #3, Genetics in the neighborhood is apt to improve more than with no QDM. #4, Neighbors have no incentive to hunt your property lines & slightly over your property lines. #5, (this is the big one) Great habitat all around makes all of the deer on both sides of the property line move less because of all of the above reasons, which gives you a better chance of getting the biggest buck that lives on your side in front of you during daylight hours in hunting season.
In my experiences in the different places we hunt our deer travel less from one property to another than what I'm reading about other people's experiences, and I attribute that to quality habitat all around the perimeter of our hunting areas. Our cameras and our neighbors cameras have different deer on them most of the time, so I guess our deer could be considered as homebodies.

This theoretically perfect property is definitely not perfect; It has a lot of holes in it. The topography is super for the area;465 of the 605 acres is in a just right succession stage and there are apples a plenty with over two thousand released wild apple trees but there are areas of invasive plants (buckthorn) that provide excellent cover but a low amount of food and there is yet 100 or so acres in need of intensive logging and there is one 14 acre stand of hard maple in the 12 to 17 inch DBH range that provides very minimal browse. 35 acres is planted annually to winter wheat or rye which is a great thing but perfect it is not. However it is the best deer habitat overall that I have seen in this area.

The deer do travel away from this property but they return mostly before daylight. They move more on this property during daylight than darkness according to 41,000 trail cam pics this past season(71% daylight pics overall). So this property is not perfect but it is pretty good. With that said everything you have said Mennoniteman makes excellent sense to me and the more we discuss this the more obvious the right direction to go is clear. I would like to see your property some day as much of the logic and knowledge that you share with us often probably comes from and is reflected in every aspect of your property. And as I have stated, the right way to go here is obviously to help neighbors get their habitat up to par. I am starting with two neighbors and will see how it goes. Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful comments that you bring to discussions.

 

[Triple C]

Great thread Dave. I'd take like-minded neighbors managing for great habitat and trigger control 10 to 1 over non-managed property neighbors. With a 3 month long firearms season and a 2 buck per hunter limit, our yearling and 2.5 yr old bucks get slaughtered. We always have several 3.5 yr olds and the elusive few older than 4 but not many.

 

[Mennoniteman]

This theoretically perfect property is definitely not perfect; It has a lot of holes in it. The topography is super for the area;465 of the 605 acres is in a just right succession stage and there are apples a plenty with over two thousand released wild apple trees but there are areas of invasive plants (buckthorn) that provide excellent cover but a low amount of food and there is yet 100 or so acres in need of intensive logging and there is one 14 acre stand of hard maple in the 12 to 17 inch DBH range that provides very minimal browse. 35 acres is planted annually to winter wheat or rye which is a great thing but perfect it is not. However it is the best deer habitat overall that I have seen in this area.

The deer do travel away from this property but they return mostly before daylight. They move more on this property during daylight than darkness according to 41,000 trail cam pics this past season(71% daylight pics overall). So this property is not perfect but it is pretty good. With that said everything you have said Mennoniteman makes excellent sense to me and the more we discuss this the more obvious the right direction to go is clear. I would like to see your property some day as much of the logic and knowledge that you share with us often probably comes from and is reflected in every aspect of your property. And as I have stated, the right way to go here is obviously to help neighbors get their habitat up to par. I am starting with two neighbors and will see how it goes. Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful comments that you bring to discussions.

Thanks for your kind words but I'm not a biologist or habitat expert, and only have an eighth grade education, unlike many here who have engineering degrees, which I wish I had the opportunity to pursue. My strong points are in farming, building and many hours of hunting & observing whitetail deer. My 740 acres sounds a lot like yours, although it's a new place for me, and needs a lot of work to match what you have, luckily I find the work the fun part. Let me know when you are in Pennsylvania and I'll show you around, take you to Shady maple Smorgasbord by my house, but my land is 2 hours west. Anyway, back to yours, I think you are in a good position with or without the neighbors, you can manage your deer without needing any of them on board, and things should continue to get better for you the longer you are managing on your current scale. I'm guessing low pressure during the season is probably your most important component to go it on your own? Low pressure in managed habitat is an amazing thing, almost like hunting in a zoo, vs. too much pressure, like hunting in a desert.