First it was his co-existence with the wily coyote...Then Random Clusters

catscratch said:
And... transient yotes are often more aggressive hunters who have larger litters of pups to quickly fill the void.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

but, those young coyotes are not as adept hunters according to studies done on the Savannah river area. Also, at least at my place, it makes a big difference when you remove them. If I remove coyotes during the early spring, I dont see coyotes back until after fawning and nesting season. If I remove them in December, I see coyotes back much sooner. My concern with coyotes is strictly during fawning and nesting season. Our statewide fawns per doe is below .5 fawns per doe. Our does average 1.7 fetuses - but we have less than .5 fawns per doe come October. Something is happening to those fawns. Our poult counts average around 1.6 poults per hen turkey - indicative of a declining population. That is relative to my area and maybe only my area. I know a lot of folks think what they see in their area can be applied to all areas - but that is not true. Now that said, I like my coyotes other than during nesting and fawning season. They are the buffer that keeps the hogs from moving into my front yard. They eat tons of piglets.
 
Last edited:
Twin fawns are almost non-existent at my place - as can be expected with sub .5 fawns per doe. I think taking coyotes in the spring slows their repopulating the area because many of them are involved with raising pups and not as likely to readily move into new territory. I actually notice increased coyote activity in prime fawning grounds preceeding and during fawning season. I believe the coyotes can tell by the smell of the does it is time - or maybe the amount of time the does spend in the prime fawning cover attracts the coyotes due to increased scent. The rest of the year, the coyotes are more widely distributed - probably hunting pigs. It is almost as if the better cover receives more coyote attention and thus, lower fawn production rates. I had one group of five does this spring produce one fawn. The only set of twins I know of on my 300 acres were raised in my front yard - in almost no cover. I believe the yotes in my area are holding steady, but bobcats are definitely increasing.
 
A friend of mine in MS thought they might have a small coyote problem because of low fawn numbers, he suspected that there might be a pack of 4 or 6 running around in the neighborhood, but they never saw many in daylight and they were only shooting a few every year. Finally he decided to get serious with this problem and bought a 50X ATN Thermal scope and set up a 600 yd nighttime coyote rifle. It was unbelievable the amount of dogs they actually had, in the first month he took out around 21 yotes before the numbers started to taper off. They didn't move back in either, the population around his neighborhood is getting to the point where they aren't huntable anymore.
 
Mennoniteman said:
A friend of mine in MS thought they might have a small coyote problem because of low fawn numbers, he suspected that there might be a pack of 4 or 6 running around in the neighborhood, but they never saw many in daylight and they were only shooting a few every year. Finally he decided to get serious with this problem and bought a 50X ATN Thermal scope and set up a 600 yd nighttime coyote rifle. It was unbelievable the amount of dogs they actually had, in the first month he took out around 21 yotes before the numbers started to taper off. They didn't move back in either, the population around his neighborhood is getting to the point where they aren't huntable anymore.
Click to expand...

For some reason, it seems like southern coyotes create more of a problem with fawning than coyotes in other areas. I have seen fawn recruitment numbers advertised by all whitetail deer states, and my own home state of Arkansas is in the bottom five. The turkey population is taking a nose dive all across the south. You would think that coyotes would have a much easier time preying on deer and turkeys up north in a cold, harsh, snowy climate - but that doesnt seem to be the case. I read about turkeys everywhere - even roosting on houses up north - and deer at population levels of forty and fifty per square mile. Those would be rare happenings in the south.
 
SwampCat said:
Twin fawns are almost non-existent at my place - as can be expected with sub .5 fawns per doe. I think taking coyotes in the spring slows their repopulating the area because many of them are involved with raising pups and not as likely to readily move into new territory. I actually notice increased coyote activity in prime fawning grounds preceeding and during fawning season. I believe the coyotes can tell by the smell of the does it is time - or maybe the amount of time the does spend in the prime fawning cover attracts the coyotes due to increased scent. The rest of the year, the coyotes are more widely distributed - probably hunting pigs. It is almost as if the better cover receives more coyote attention and thus, lower fawn production rates. I had one group of five does this spring produce one fawn. The only set of twins I know of on my 300 acres were raised in my front yard - in almost no cover. I believe the yotes in my area are holding steady, but bobcats are definitely increasing.
Click to expand...

You've just pointed out another thing about the fake research findings that I have noticed as well. They tell us that cover is the answer to keeping coyotes from getting fawns. However, like you pointed out, the fawns with the greatest survival rate are the ones that are raised close to humans where coyotes have less of a presence. That is exactly how it is on my farm. The older does have learned to raise their fawns on the side of my place that borders civilization. The coyote gurus talk about how smart and adaptable the yotes are, but then make the assumption that they are not smart enough to hunt cover.

We are also told that they just mostly hunt small game. I guess the rabbit and mice in my area must be tough to take down because around here the yotes run in packs. I have personally seen packs of 6 at two different locations miles apart. I guess our mice have been trained in Kung Fu and it takes 6 yotes to take one down.....:rolleyes:
 
Coyotes are a very interesting animal to me - I have a love/hate relationship with them. I have by far the best deer habitat in the area. No one else in the area does any habitat management - corn feeders are the extent of it. Game cam pics of Coyote activity on my place picks up greatly during fawning season. I have a lot of does and I have excellent fawning cover and the coyotes concentrate hunting effort on my land. I even calculated it out one year, based on game cam pics - coyote activity on my land doubled in May, June, and July. Then it begins to taper off. My ranching next door neighbor with 1200 acres of grazed pasture interspersed with wooded draws will have a fair many sets of twin fawns on his place. I believe to coyotes do not concentrate hunting effort during fawning season in his poor habitat.

Just recently, I was putting out corn as a method for legal baiting here in my state on a sixty acre property away from my home ground. Deer activity at the bait sites picked up, and shortly after, hog numbers increased dramatically. There were at least three sows with litters of ten to thirty pound pigs in tow. After the pig numbers increased - so did the coyote and cat numbers. I went from getting almost no coyote pictures to getting two or three a night. A bobcat or two almost every night. We finished up our deer hunting and the pigs were eating us out of house and home - so I quit baiting. The deer left first. But the coyotes, cats, and pigs stayed on for awhile. Eventually the pigs have thinned out, as have the coyotes and cats.

I dont really think coyotes purposely hunt good cover. I think they hunt good cover because they smell a lot of food opportunity. If the food source goes away, even though habitat remains great, the mobile predators will go away, also.
 
SwampCat said:
Our statewide fawns per doe is below .5 fawns per doe. Our does average 1.7 fetuses - but we have less than .5 fawns per doe come October. Something is happening to those fawns. Our poult counts average around 1.6 poults per hen turkey - indicative of a declining population.
Click to expand...
Could be a coyote problem. Could be a habitat problem. Or both.
 
Native Hunter said:
You've just pointed out another thing about the fake research findings that I have noticed as well. They tell us that cover is the answer to keeping coyotes from getting fawns. However, like you pointed out, the fawns with the greatest survival rate are the ones that are raised close to humans where coyotes have less of a presence. That is exactly how it is on my farm. The older does have learned to raise their fawns on the side of my place that borders civilization. The coyote gurus talk about how smart and adaptable the yotes are, but then make the assumption that they are not smart enough to hunt cover.

We are also told that they just mostly hunt small game. I guess the rabbit and mice in my area must be tough to take down because around here the yotes run in packs. I have personally seen packs of 6 at two different locations miles apart. I guess our mice have been trained in Kung Fu and it takes 6 yotes to take one down.....:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I laugh because the FWC here sent out an Email telling Us just how great a part the Coyotes play in our System. "Why they even eat nuisance things like Roaches!!".

I still hear Non Hunters talking about it, why they are Good for us here. It's an ID 10 T unit. (ID10T).
 
Deadeye said:
I laugh because the FWC here sent out an Email telling Us just how great a part the Coyotes play in our System. "Why they even eat nuisance things like Roaches!!".
Click to expand...

Headed for the roach motel:

ilR0pxs.jpg
 
Coyotes go where there is something to kill and eat, pretty simple. I see them, and bobcats, at my mineral sites often. They ain’t there for the minerals ! They are opportunistic killers, that’s why I try to kill as many hogs as I can in the spring and early summer. I have to think that a ready meal will deter them from hunting something to chase, possibly lose, and that might save a fawn or two.
 
dogghr said:
Riots by the Karens in the streets, political comments as demeaning as possible by the population, wearing masks like a year long Halloween, and such. And there you go Triple trying to create drama in an already world of turmoil. What am I to do with you??
One should never listen too intently to the ramblings of a Mountain Man. I will need to listen to that podcast. They tend to put me to sleep with anything without pictures for this uneducated hillbilly. Interesting synopsis you gave and I really like the encounter alone with your pond side predator. I did shoot one with my ML 2 years ago, but maybe 3 total taken off my land in 10 years. I know the ones that roam by name and can tell you which rock they will stop to piss on marking their territory. I've watched them walk thur a deer bedding areas within yards of deer with no alarm by the deer.
They do take fawns. So do my bear, probably moreso. Good cover is more effective that removal of a half dozen per year. I've trapped with leg hold and snare in the past. And I've done wolf also. Waste of time I found as each following year then the numbers were there again. I see less yotes since I quite such aggression than during trapping days.
If one is going to shoot them, then April/May before fawning season is most productive. But fawning cover, now that is worth ones while first on the list.
Now back to cleaning my guns before another wave of rioting Andy Tifa attacks! Happy hunting guys.
Click to expand...

dogghr...Not sure how I missed your post but I did. I swear, I thought of you when I listened to the podcast. Regardless of your opinions on academia, the podcast is worth a listen. I know Dr. Chamberlain personally. I've had 2 different groups of his graduate students do their graduate papers on my farm - the first for timber management and the second for wildlife management. He is as avid a hunter and outdoorsman as you will encounter, hunting game all over North America.

Chamberlain's research projects focus on yotes and turkeys. The yote project was conducted over a 3 year period in GA, TN & SC with funding by all 3 of the state wildlife agencies. According to the research, deer are by far the prey of choice for yotes. Not just fawns, but adult deer. It is worth an hour of your time to listen. We trapped yotes in the early years but don't do it any more. We shoot one occasionally but since we mostly bowhunt the farm and they are always at a trot when they come by, killing is difficult.

For any of you guys interested in listening to the podcast, here's the link.
http://georgiaafield.com/episode30/
 
Last edited:
Triple C said:
dogghr...Not sure how I missed your post but I did. I swear, I thought of you when I listened to the podcast. Regardless of your opinions on academia, the podcast is worth a listen. I know Dr. Chamberlain personally. I've had 2 different groups of his graduate students do their graduate papers on my farm - the first for timber management and the second for wildlife management. He is as avid a hunter and outdoorsman as you will encounter, hunting game all over North America.

Chamberlain's research projects focus on yotes and turkeys. The yote project was conducted over a 3 year period in GA, TN & SC with funding by all 3 of the state wildlife agencies. According to the research, deer are by far the prey of choice for yotes. Not just fawns, but adult deer. It is worth an hour of your time to listen. We trapped yotes in the early years but don't do it any more. We shoot one occasionally but since we mostly bowhunt the farm and they are always at a trot when they come by, killing is difficult.

For any of you guys interested in listening to the podcast, here's the link.
http://georgiaafield.com/episode30/
Click to expand...
Lol well you have a lot on your plate at the moment. Hopefully you have got that recurve laying down a deer by now. Me, not so much as sold my house with 4 wks to move out and starting new construction. Haven't even been on the stand. PIA to rent as the influx from evil states have bought or rented any thing available, not counting their campers and motorhomes. I'm feeling crowded!!

I do intend to listen to that podcast. When we had this discussion 2 years ago ( http://deerhunterforum.com/index.php?threads/the-new-coyote-and-other-predators-can-you-win.3600/ ) , ( http://deerhunterforum.com/index.ph...an-you-win-part-2-black-bear-and-others.3766/ ), I made it clear I had no problem with trapping or shooting yotes but that there often were more important holes in the bucket for a habitat manager to fill first, and their efforts to eradicate the eastern coyote were minimal if not fruitless in some areas. Each area of the country is different for sure.

No question I have probable trapped /shot more coyotes 2000-2010 than most on this forum. Effective, I doubt it, but perhaps a help. I haven't trapped for 10 years and have maybe shot 2 or 3 since then when opportune arises. Same number of yote population on the property now, perhaps less in reality.
Now if coyotes are so detrimental to the deer population, then how is my area, which has had the Eastern yote for 40 years I know of, in a state where per capita hunters is one of the highest in the country, still have one of the highest dpsm densities in the country??
I acknowledge they do prey on deer, especially the fawn, yet probably less than the bear and perhaps bobcat. You guys have watched a cat hunt before haven't you?? Think they can't be more adept? The bear home range is typically 30-40 sq mile, i.e., they cover a lot of ground and a lot of fawning areas sniffing away at anything to eat.

So on this forum, and others, there are hundreds of hunters spending hundreds of hours in the wood and field. They all have thousands of cameras posted on food plots, corn feeders, mineral licks, and wood pathways. So tell me, how many have actually seen a healthy deer taken or have a camera such action, with all this constant coverage?? I'm sure some may, and I'm not speaking of the youtube or FB postings, but our actual members. How many have even seen a deer being chased by coyotes? How many have opened the contents of the stomach of a trapped or shot yote to see what they have eaten. I have. You do for deer sometimes, so why not the population destroying predator?

I've seen coyote chase a deer in the dead of winter, but even he gave up. Too much energy to spend. I've had them steal my shot deer left to lay overnight for sure. I've got pics of them walking thru a foodplot as deer look on, and the same with a bear and deer. Do they take deer?? You bet, acadamia DNA studies prove it, albeit never conclusive as whether it was a kill or scavenged. Why do the same complainers of yotes being the demise of the deer, not make as much attempt to kill any/all the bear, bobcat, bald eagles that they can?? I mean, they do take their fair share if not more, than the coyote.

I concede that the coyote is an opportunistic predator that can/does affect deer numbers. Perhaps they keep the deer population closer to what the habitat should support rather than what we assume it should support. I've always found them interesting, even in the days of despising them. I consider them one of my competition,
Shoot them, trap them, I don't care. Just don't get frustrated if, like roaches, they still survive your onslaught. I'd rather work on other holes in my landscape bucket. Good luck guys.

"I'm tired boss..... tired of all the arguing over the coyote" ----John Coffey, The Green Mile LOL
 
Last edited:
dogghr said:
Lol well you have a lot on your plate at the moment. Hopefully you have got that recurve laying down a deer by now. Me, not so much as sold my house with 4 wks to move out and starting new construction. Haven't even been on the stand. PIA to rent as the influx from evil states have bought or rented any thing available, not counting their campers and motorhomes. I'm feeling crowded!!

I do intend to listen to that podcast. When we had this discussion 2 years ago ( http://deerhunterforum.com/index.php?threads/the-new-coyote-and-other-predators-can-you-win.3600/ ) , ( http://deerhunterforum.com/index.ph...an-you-win-part-2-black-bear-and-others.3766/ ), I made it clear I had no problem with trapping or shooting yotes but that there often were more important holes in the bucket for a habitat manager to fill first, and their efforts to eradicate the eastern coyote were minimal if not fruitless in some areas. Each area of the country is different for sure.

No question I have probable trapped /shot more coyotes 2000-2010 than most on this forum. Effective, I doubt it, but perhaps a help. I haven't trapped for 10 years and have maybe shot 2 or 3 since then when opportune arises. Same number of yote population on the property now, perhaps less in reality.
Now if coyotes are so detrimental to the deer population, then how is my area, which has had the Eastern yote for 40 years I know of, in a state where per capita hunters is one of the highest in the country, still have one of the highest dpsm densities in the country??
I acknowledge they do prey on deer, especially the fawn, yet probably less than the bear and perhaps bobcat. You guys have watched a cat hunt before haven't you?? Think they can't be more adept? The bear home range is typically 30-40 sq mile, i.e., they cover a lot of ground and a lot of fawning areas sniffing away at anything to eat.

So on this forum, and others, there are hundreds of hunters spending hundreds of hours in the wood and field. They all have thousands of cameras posted on food plots, corn feeders, mineral licks, and wood pathways. So tell me, how many have actually seen a healthy deer taken or have a camera such action, with all this constant coverage?? I'm sure some may, and I'm not speaking of the youtube or FB postings, but our actual members. How many have even seen a deer being chased by coyotes? How many have opened the contents of the stomach of a trapped or shot yote to see what they have eaten. I have. You do for deer sometimes, so why not the population destroying predator?

I've seen coyote chase a deer in the dead of winter, but even he gave up. Too much energy to spend. I've had them steal my shot deer left to lay overnight for sure. I've got pics of them walking thru a foodplot as deer look on, and the same with a bear and deer. Do they take deer?? You bet, acadamia DNA studies prove it, albeit never conclusive as whether it was a kill or scavenged. Why do the same complainers of yotes being the demise of the deer, not make as much attempt to kill any/all the bear, bobcat, bald eagles that they can?? I mean, they do take their fair share if not more, than the coyote.

I concede that the coyote is an opportunistic predator that can/does affect deer numbers. Perhaps they keep the deer population closer to what the habitat should support rather than what we assume it should support. I've always found them interesting, even in the days of despising them. I consider them one of my competition,
Shoot them, trap them, I don't care. Just don't get frustrated if, like roaches, they still survive your onslaught. I'd rather work on other holes in my landscape bucket. Good luck guys.

"I'm tired boss..... tired of all the arguing over the coyote" ----John Coffey, The Green Mile LOL
Click to expand...

I think you are overlooking the obvious. I dont believe anywhere in the south that coyotes are considered an extremely effective predator on adult deer. Fawns, that is a different story - as many studies will attest to that. And just because you have 40 dpsm in your area - dont think that is the case everywhere. I own property that backs up to a NWR that has four months of bow season, five days of ml season, and two days of quota modern gun. They kill about a deer per 200 acres. Fawn recruitment there is horrible - but at a local harvest of a deer per 200 acres - it really doesnt matter - horrible fawn recruitment can replace combined hunter and natural mortality there. Eight miles away - based upon harvest at a local wma - a deer per 75 acres is killed. That means you have to have three times the fawn recruitment to stay even as you do on and near the refuge. Our mature does average 1.7 fetuses - but .48 fawns per doe in October. This is a rural area without many cars - so there arent many getting killed on the highway. Not a cwd area - so not dying of that. Very little ehd - not dying of that. Average population of 20 deer per square mile.

You are mistaken if you think your area with 40 dpsm can be applied all across whitetail country. My state’s deer hunters are way to good to ever allow a deer population to reach 40 dpsm. :D
 
^^^^^^Uh please read the last sentence of the second paragraph again please. Thank you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
dogghr said:
^^^^^^Uh please read the last sentence of the second paragraph again please. Thank you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

My bad. I apologize. I missed that mention of fawns. I stand by everything else I said. 40 dpsm buys a lot of forgiveness. That is a pipe dream for most of us in the south.
 
Lol it’s getting late and I being bit of a smart ass. I get your point.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Shoot coyotes, don’t shoot coyotes, I like that we have the choice to manage our properties as we see fit. Generally I don’t think it makes much difference at all unless you’re shooting/trapping all year every year.

Coyotes have aggressively surged East over the past 40 years, ALL of that time being hunted in every area where they now have a strong presence. Their numbers have exploded in spite of massive hunting and trapping efforts.

I live in a 50+ deer per square mile County in NW North Carolina. We have healthy deer, bear and coyote populations. I don’t actively pursue them but would happily stick an arrow in one given the chance....or not...depending on the scenario.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
One of the common themes I see is many of the people who’s experience is that coyotes have little to no effect on deer populations are the same people who live in areas with extremely high deer populations - 40, 50, or more deer per square mile. In those areas, coyotes may well be doing the deer herd a favor. If you have a 1:2 buck doe ratio, and your does are averaging a fawn each - you have 10 bucks, 20 does, and 20 fawns per square mile. All forms of mortality - hunting, predation, disease, etc could be 20 deer per square mile per year and the population would remain the same. Now, take an area like where I live where there are 20 dpsm. A 1:2 buck doe ratio results in 5 bucks, 10 does, and five fawns with our .5 fawns per doe. That means all forms of mortality can not exceed five deer per square mile, or your population starts decreasing. Coyotes do not have to inflict a lot of predation to start eating into that five deer per year mortality. Add in hunting, disease, autos, etc - and coyotes can easily tip the scales the wrong way.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top