First it was his co-existence with the wily coyote...Then Random Clusters

Triple C

Triple C

Well-Known Member
Our resident mad scientist, dogghr, seems to be ahead of his time in the world of ecosystem management. He embraces his resident coyotes is such a way that would have made Leupold proud. Listened to a podcast yesterday featuring one of the country's foremost "experts" on coyote research that aligns with dogghr's views - Dr. Michael Chamberlain, from UGA. Remove the resident alpha male and female and within weeks, sometimes days, multiple transients will show up to fill the void.

Great listen for any of you guys interested in learning more about yotes. Check out Georgia Afield Hunting Podcast - Episode 30.
 
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And... transient yotes are often more aggressive hunters who have larger litters of pups to quickly fill the void.

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This view is not new. The same view has been expressed about Mt. Lions. I hunted an extremely well managed 250k ranch that long ago concluded there was less predation if you left the existing age structure in place as established mature lions and song dogs would defend their territory. I personally found it maddening because they were not afraid of man...and they were off limits.
 
I would have to agree with more filling the void. Our trapper takes about a week or so to catch his first coyote. Then it starts snowballing fast.

Now there is a group of guys I know in Maine who hunt with hounds. They have pretty much wiped them out for the immediate future. It’s becoming hard pressed to find a track to run. But they aren’t only hunting a small area. They travel and are doing this daily. They will come back and fill the void but I’m sure taking that many out of deer yards does have a positive effect for prey species.
 
I recall reading dogghr's comments years ago about finding peace with the presence of coyotes on his place. We'd trap and shoot any we saw. I recall making a trek back to our largest beaver pond way back in the bottoms in early Spring just to sit there for an hour or so on a Sunday morning enjoying the view and God's creation. As if on que...a large yote trots across the open bottoms on the other side of the pond and then poses on a fallen tree trunk as if he were surveying his kingdom. Not that I wouldn't still shoot one but haven't shot one since.

As for the podcast, I found it very interesting that the more cover one has on their land the higher the fawn recruitment. Yote's like to run in a straight line if possible when cruising property. Thick cover where they're constantly having to turn and change course gives the deer n particularly fawns a much higher success rate of surviving. According to the guest, yotes are pretty much monogamous with the resident male and female ferociously defending their territory. Remove the male and transients show up, according to the guest, in days rather than months.
 
Triple C said:
I recall reading dogghr's comments years ago about finding peace with the presence of coyotes on his place. We'd trap and shoot any we saw. I recall making a trek back to our largest beaver pond way back in the bottoms in early Spring just to sit there for an hour or so on a Sunday morning enjoying the view and God's creation. As if on que...a large yote trots across the open bottoms on the other side of the pond and then poses on a fallen tree trunk as if he were surveying his kingdom. Not that I wouldn't still shoot one but haven't shot one since.

As for the podcast, I found it very interesting that the more cover one has on their land the higher the fawn recruitment. Yote's like to run in a straight line if possible when cruising property. Thick cover where they're constantly having to turn and change course gives the deer n particularly fawns a much higher success rate of surviving. According to the guest, yotes are pretty much monogamous with the resident male and female ferociously defending their territory. Remove the male and transients show up, according to the guest, in days rather than months.
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Like when they removed Saddam?
 
Riots by the Karens in the streets, political comments as demeaning as possible by the population, wearing masks like a year long Halloween, and such. And there you go Triple trying to create drama in an already world of turmoil. What am I to do with you??
One should never listen too intently to the ramblings of a Mountain Man. I will need to listen to that podcast. They tend to put me to sleep with anything without pictures for this uneducated hillbilly. Interesting synopsis you gave and I really like the encounter alone with your pond side predator. I did shoot one with my ML 2 years ago, but maybe 3 total taken off my land in 10 years. I know the ones that roam by name and can tell you which rock they will stop to piss on marking their territory. I've watched them walk thur a deer bedding areas within yards of deer with no alarm by the deer.
They do take fawns. So do my bear, probably moreso. Good cover is more effective that removal of a half dozen per year. I've trapped with leg hold and snare in the past. And I've done wolf also. Waste of time I found as each following year then the numbers were there again. I see less yotes since I quite such aggression than during trapping days.
If one is going to shoot them, then April/May before fawning season is most productive. But fawning cover, now that is worth ones while first on the list.
Now back to cleaning my guns before another wave of rioting Andy Tifa attacks! Happy hunting guys.
 
I don't know that much about Coyotes, except at night our Property sounds loaded with them.

But the Deer Blood Tracker that came and found the Doe I shot last year and lost the trail due to the rain when I told her about hearing a Pack Fire Up last night near where I figured the Deer would be, and then One Big Howl that shut them all down, she said that was what saved my deer (it had a small area eaten out of the shoulder where the Bolt had exited). That the Pack had found the Trail and was headed for the Deer when the Boss Coyote Howled to "let them know it was his and to back off".

BTW, she told me of several Times where they were tracking a Deer for a Hunter and having Packs of Yotes following them Howling and even have had Competing Packs Howling in Front and in Back of them. If they beat you to the Deer they usually destroy it, meat wise. She said she carries a Pistol just in case they have to defend themselves against the Yotes.

I do know that where my Brother lives in Pa that they got pretty heavy then seemed to leave. He said that when he noticed that all the Rabbits were gone, the Pack moved on. As he noticed the Rabbits were making a Come back, the Packs would show back up. Like they were following the Rabbits Population around the country. He was surrounded one night at dusk while hunting Archery. After that he started carrying his pistol with him, just in case.
The Year I took my SIL up there to hunt and we stayed at my Mom's House (before it was sold) we both went outside for a Smoke (both have quit since!) and there were several Coyotes howling on the Field across the road from the house. In my 38 years of living there I had NEVER heard the like that. The Amish that lived up on the hill in the field I could see out checking their Livestock as several of the Yotes were right by their place.

On the Florida Hunting Page I'm on, I've seen pics of Piles of Yotes taken over a weekend and still there never seems to be and end to them.
 
Do an internet search for "predator/prey relationships". Look at the graphs and you'll see the cycle described above. Yotes also have the ability to check population density and respond to it. If the yotes are sparse they increase litter size. If they are overpopulated they decrease litter size. Howling at night is one of the metrics determining population density. I've often wondered if someone could put out several loud speakers on a property with howling every night to keep the population down?

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catscratch said:
Do an internet search for "predator/prey relationships". Look at the graphs and you'll see the cycle described above. Yotes also have the ability to check population density and respond to it. If the yotes are sparse they increase litter size. If they are overpopulated they decrease litter size. Howling at night is one of the metrics determining population density. I've often wondered if someone could put out several loud speakers on a property with howling every night to keep the population down?

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Very Good Question!

The First Night my SIL was staying at our Property we heard a Yote howl in the distance the SIL looked at me and said "want me to call it in". I said "no don't do that". He said "I can by squeaking through my fingers". Again I said "no you don't want to do that".

Then the Entire Pack fired up and his Eyes got Big as Saucers. I said "that's why you don't want to do that".
 
In areas of heavy predator hunting such as ours , the yotes will suppress their yapping. So that is a poor indicator of population in some areas.
I saw my first coyote here come by my stand in the early 80s. I know that over the years I’ve found them much smarter than a deer to hunt , and for that matter, smarter than a wolf.
We have a trapping season and a night vision season but otherwise they can be hunted year round.
They cover a lot of ground and tend to be more visual for fawn hunting whereas bear are more scent oriented. Hence best to have good fawning areas and keep deer population such as they drop most the fawns in a short window this increasing odds.
If you are seeing twin fawns thru the year then your predators are low typically. Most does produce twins but will lose one w predator.
I don’t doubt my red tail hawks and bald eagles take as many fawn as my yotes. But no real proof of that. And they are a protected species.


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I’m gonna be the odd man out on this thread. While a random coyote killing every now and then isn’t gonna do much to save your fawns, a comprehensive snare, trap, and shoot program will IMO. But you can’t do it one time and say, “man I took x number of coyotes off my place and my fawns are safe”. It doesn’t work that way, you have to keep at it. It’s just like habitat work, it’s ongoing, and thicker fawning/bedding areas are part of the equation. I did it for two years running on the 217 acres I had just before I sold it and I saw more twins reach yearling than the previous eight years that I owned the place. Part of that plan was thinning timber and a 15 acre clearcut. I saw more rabbits too, many of them adjacent to that clearcut. It wasn’t too thick for the deer or hogs, but evidently coyotes didn’t like to go in there. As said above, coyotes like to trot down trails and openings using their noses to hunt, then chase down their prey. The thicker it is, the harder it is to chase. Also a part of that program was the fact that my buddy and I never let a coyote get away if we could shoot it. The first few years we killed several during deer season and when hog hunting. The last two years, not very many. I can only remember one for me and that was at night while hog hunting.
 
I don't believe any of the data from the World of Academia when it comes to predators. It's all biased - exactly like climate change and everything else right now. Liberals have taken over colleges and universities. The goal is to replace man with other predators for wildlife management:
  • If man is no longer a necessary hunter, he has less use for a weapon
  • If man has less use for a weapon, his weapons can be taken away more easily
  • If his weapons can be removed, he can then be controlled
What I've seen on my place regarding coyotes is totally opposite of what they say. When we have a "cleansing of coyotes" it is typically 7 to 10 months before I ever see another one on camera or see any sign of one. This scenario has played out over and over for years. Recent examples are:
  • In the fall of 2018 we had a cleansing, and it was September of the next year before I got a picture of another one.
  • In fall of 2019 we had another cleansing. I just recently took out the only one that has returned since that time.
I have no problem with what anyone wants to do on their own land - shoot them or don't shoot them - it doesn't matter to me. But what is presented as facts from academia is nothing more than propaganda. There is no way that those outrageous claims about litter size and similar things can be proven in a population of wild animals. What has happened to common sense? Believe what you want, but I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid.

Edit: One thing I forgot to mention - As for the random clusters, I'm a believer. In fact I went out and created a bunch a couple of months ago. I would probably never have done that without dogghr's post. Thanks man!
 
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Native Hunter said:
I don't believe any of the data from the World of Academia when it comes to predators. It's all biased - exactly like climate change and everything else right now. Liberals have taken over colleges and universities. The goal is to replace man with other predators for wildlife management:
  • If man is no longer a necessary hunter, he has less use for a weapon
  • If man has less use for a weapon, his weapons can be taken away more easily
  • If his weapons can be removed, he can then be controlled
What I've seen on my place regarding coyotes is totally opposite of what they say. When we have a "cleansing of coyotes" it is typically 7 to 10 months before I ever see another one on camera or see any sign of one. This scenario has played out over and over for years. Recent examples are:
  • In the fall of 2018 we had a cleansing, and it was September of the next year before I got a picture of another one.
  • In fall of 2019 we had another cleansing. I just recently took out the only one that has returned since that time.
I have no problem with what anyone wants to do on their own land - shoot them or don't shoot them - it doesn't matter to me. But what is presented as facts from academia is nothing more than propaganda. There is no way that those outrageous claims about litter size and similar things can be proven in a population of wild animals. Where has happened to common sense? Believe what you want, but I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid.

Edit: One thing I forgot to mention - As for the random clusters, I'm a believer. In fact I went out and created a bunch a couple of months ago. I would probably never have done that without dogghr's post. Thanks man!
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The operative phrase is the first sentence of your post........

Most academicians can't find their ass in the field or clinical arena......

bill
 
I'm not a biologist, but I spend a lot of time in the woods, and I used to be a platinum IHG member. Everything starts making sense to me when I view it as part of a system. Most of the problems we have are symptoms of failing to understand the system. Predators help eat stuff, and often times, mostly stuff we don't want. It's really fascinating when raising pigs, fish, or managing wild lands for deer. You can really produce stuff of value by running stuff of no value through them.

This all applies to trees and food plots too. What you see in front of you is there for a reason. There are no voids in nature. Figuring out how to slip in and alter it without an ongoing costly or labor intensive investment is the trick. This is what leads me to chainsaws for native habitat and away from planting trees and shrubs. It leads me to perennials and overseeding vs annuals/spraying/tillage/fertilizer/lime. And I don't get bent outta shape over predators.

I've got 'em. Had fresh dog tracks of some sort on my place last weekend. No clue what it actually was, but by the next night, the deer were back to doing deer things.
 
I had an interesting double whammy one year where my place got really dry and I had a huge acorn crop. I had dug a water hole deep enough, that it held water through the dry spell. My place is low enough, I don't ever lose moisture, just the standing water. I had bobcats that year, and I suspect they were busy taking in the haul from all the rodents eating acorns and picking up water at my hole.

Fascinating them critters. Who knew cats would directly help plant oaks by eating the acorn predators?
 
MarkDarvin said:
I'm not a biologist, but I spend a lot of time in the woods, and I used to be a platinum IHG member. Everything starts making sense to me when I view it as part of a system. Most of the problems we have are symptoms of failing to understand the system. Predators help eat stuff, and often times, mostly stuff we don't want. It's really fascinating when raising pigs, fish, or managing wild lands for deer. You can really produce stuff of value by running stuff of no value through them.

This all applies to trees and food plots too. What you see in front of you is there for a reason. There are no voids in nature. Figuring out how to slip in and alter it without an ongoing costly or labor intensive investment is the trick. This is what leads me to chainsaws for native habitat and away from planting trees and shrubs. It leads me to perennials and overseeding vs annuals/spraying/tillage/fertilizer/lime. And I don't get bent outta shape over predators.

I've got 'em. Had fresh dog tracks of some sort on my place last weekend. No clue what it actually was, but by the next night, the deer were back to doing deer things.
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You use your chainsaw to remove a species of tree that you don't want so the trees that you do want can thrive, because it works. I use my rifle to remove a species of animal that I don't want so that the animals that I do want can thrive and it's working for me. This "replacement theology" on coyotes is just not true at our place, a good bloodletting lasts a long time.
Native Hunter said:
I don't believe any of the data from the World of Academia when it comes to predators. It's all biased - exactly like climate change and everything else right now. Liberals have taken over colleges and universities. The goal is to replace man with other predators for wildlife management:
  • If man is no longer a necessary hunter, he has less use for a weapon
  • If man has less use for a weapon, his weapons can be taken away more easily
  • If his weapons can be removed, he can then be controlled
What I've seen on my place regarding coyotes is totally opposite of what they say. When we have a "cleansing of coyotes" it is typically 7 to 10 months before I ever see another one on camera or see any sign of one. This scenario has played out over and over for years. Recent examples are:
  • In the fall of 2018 we had a cleansing, and it was September of the next year before I got a picture of another one.
  • In fall of 2019 we had another cleansing. I just recently took out the only one that has returned since that time.
I have no problem with what anyone wants to do on their own land - shoot them or don't shoot them - it doesn't matter to me. But what is presented as facts from academia is nothing more than propaganda. There is no way that those outrageous claims about litter size and similar things can be proven in a population of wild animals. What has happened to common sense? Believe what you want, but I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid.

Edit: One thing I forgot to mention - As for the random clusters, I'm a believer. In fact I went out and created a bunch a couple of months ago. I would probably never have done that without dogghr's post. Thanks man!
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Your observations align well with ours.
Drycreek said:
I’m gonna be the odd man out on this thread. While a random coyote killing every now and then isn’t gonna do much to save your fawns, a comprehensive snare, trap, and shoot program will IMO. But you can’t do it one time and say, “man I took x number of coyotes off my place and my fawns are safe”. It doesn’t work that way, you have to keep at it. It’s just like habitat work, it’s ongoing, and thicker fawning/bedding areas are part of the equation. I did it for two years running on the 217 acres I had just before I sold it and I saw more twins reach yearling than the previous eight years that I owned the place. Part of that plan was thinning timber and a 15 acre clearcut. I saw more rabbits too, many of them adjacent to that clearcut. It wasn’t too thick for the deer or hogs, but evidently coyotes didn’t like to go in there. As said above, coyotes like to trot down trails and openings using their noses to hunt, then chase down their prey. The thicker it is, the harder it is to chase. Also a part of that program was the fact that my buddy and I never let a coyote get away if we could shoot it. The first few years we killed several during deer season and when hog hunting. The last two years, not very many. I can only remember one for me and that was at night while hog hunting.
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You're not the odd man out, I'm solidly in your camp. An occasional ethnic cleansing of the iotes has purchased us mostly peace and quiet at twilight, with rabbits everywhere.
 
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