Arrow inserts

Hoosier hawkeye

New Member
I'm heading out for my annual elk hunt here in about a month. I've shot several elk and have never had any problems on recovery until last year. I shot the bull broadside at about 30 yards and hit him perfect except for rib I hit dead center. I recovered him just fine but took another arrow to put him down. I'm shooting a PSE Omen, 27 inch draw, 70lbs, with Easton Epic 340 arrows. 9.5gpi. and a 125 grain fixed blade broadhead. I've always felt my arrows were a little lite but hadn't had any problems till last year. I'm thinking of adding a 50-100 grain brass insert. Has anyone ever done this before? That puts up to 225 grain at the tip of the arrow. I know lots of people do this I'm just wanting to make sure I'm not missing something.
 
I am sure that you will get a lot of input saying that you are shooting plenty of weight, and for a perfectly placed shot you probably are. The problem is that a less than perfect shot or even a shot with fairly light bone, like a rib, can be enough to severely limit your set up. I have killed my fair share of game animals with a bow. Well over a hundred have fallen to my longbows or recurves. I have also shot animals with various arrow weights and head designs. Early on I realized that light weight arrows severely limited penetration. Mechanical heads cut big holes, but limited penetration even more. Even fixed blades without a cutting edge hurt penetration, and were nearly useless on heavy bone.
I have never shot an elk, but have shot a half dozen kudu as well as oryx and other large plains game species noted for being very tough. The lightest set up I used on game of that size was 600 grains with a big cut on contact head. Penetration was excellent without exception.
Those that know me, or have heard me rant in the past, know that I put a lot of stock in Dr. Ed Ashby's huge database of arrow penetration studies. There are a lot of take home points in the volumes of information he has accumulated. All of it is not necessary for elk sized game with decent shots, but there are a few take home points to me.
First, penetration increases linearly with increased arrow weight. The more weight, the better penetration...period. Now, there is a point at which weight becomes impractical. If it were me, I would push your weight closer to 500 grains, and practice, practice, practice. Range finders and sighted bows make drops in distance less of a factor when you know the distance. Secondly, use a cut on contact head with a STURDY point that won't curl upon impact. Any tip curl will dramatically reduce penetration. If you want to take it up another notch, go with a single bevel head beveled to match your fletchings (left bevel for left wing or left offset).
As far as brass inserts, I have used them. It is an easy way to add weight and to increase the forward of center (FOC) on your arrow, which is a good thing. The only down side is that it may weaken the spine of your arrow to the point that it doesn't fly as well from your bow.
 
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[/URL][/IMG] I feel like I need to add 75-100 grains to my setup. I went from a 400 to 340 spine as I was close to that line already. I am going to be shooting G5 strikers 125 grain this year. This was last years and like I said for the shot I put on him I shouldn't have needed a follow up shot. The second picture shows the shots. The shot right in the lungs was the first shot, the one further back was a follow up shot with a severe quartering angle.
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Good advice from Dr.Brady. What is your current total arrow wt.? I estimating only about 400gr. which is probably plenty for whitetails and similar critters as they are not that large or thick-skinned. For elk, I would think some additional weight would be advantageous.
 
I agree that I need to add some extra weight just trying to figure out the best way to do that. I am just shy of 400 grains and would like to get to 450-500. I'm thinking of a 50-100 grain brass insert and am looking for some input on that idea as they are new to me.

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If you plan to use the same arrows for whitetails and elk, you could just purchase some 200gr broad heads. There are some quality broad heads on the market and you could just switch out heads for different animals. The added weight would change spine a little, but I bet they will still shoot perfectly out of your compound(.340 spine). You will obviously see a change in vertical point of impact at longer yardages, but that's a simple sight adjustment.
 
Gorgeous pictures, and a nice elk!
It is hard to tell much from the photos in regards to penetration as the arrows are no longer embedded. As far as shot placement, you would be well served by trying to keep shots in the lower third of the animal...but I don't have to tell you that I am sure. 450-500 grains would be acceptable in my opinion, but I feel much safer at the upper range of that spectrum. My wife was able to kill a 500 pound kudu and a large oryx with a 650 grain Eclipse tipped arrow from her 45 pound compound with nice penetration. In fact, she killed several animals, each with a single shot from that set up. Could she have accomplished that with a lighter arrow? Maybe, but why handicap yourself on such an important shot. Shot placement is the most important factor in penetration and putting game down, but arrow weight follows closely behind, followed by broadhead design. Imagine the outcome if you had hit the spine of the shoulder. Practice for the best, but prepare for the worst.
I agree that a heavier broadhead could get you to where you want to be. A brass insert could also accomplish that goal. G5 broadheads are well built heads, but when it comes to penetration 3 blade heads fall WAY behind 2 blade heads. The penetration differences were astonishing to me in Dr. Ashby's reports, causing me to switch from the 3 blade VPA heads to my current set up. Don't get me wrong, I have blown through many a whitetail with a 3 blade head, but if and when hard bone is encountered you will wish for a 2 blade head, and I haven't figured out how to take a shot back yet :) !
 
Thanks for her kind words. It seems that when I go in to buck fever autopilot mode my shots go a touch high. I love that feeling though and hope it never goes away.
What I'm struggling with is how do you increase your arrow weight to 600 grains? I'd love to not have to buy new arrows but is that the only way or am I missing something?

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There are a few ways you can probably get there with your current arrows. You could buy weight tubes for your arrows from 3 Rivers Archery. I think they still sell them, and they come in a variety of weights. I have used them in the past. Not my favorite way to weight arrows (I like heavy walled arrows and heavy broadheads), but they work well. I used them on my first trip to Africa with good success.
You could also go with a much heavier point or brass insert and heavy point. The only down side to this would be if it messed up your arrow spine. However, with compounds, you have a lot of adjustability. Whichever you choose, consider a well made cut on contact 2 blade head. It doesn't do you much good to go heavy with arrows, and skip a head that will offer more penetration in my opinion. There are some really good ones out there. My favorite single bevels are Cutthroat broadheads and Abowyers. My favorite 2 bevel heads are VPA and Eclipse, but there are many more quality heads on the market. I do not think that you will regret bumping your arrow weight up to the 550-600 range. You will be amazed at the difference.
 
My I am shooting I am shooting Axis 340 with 50grn brass inserts and went with 100grn thunderheads for elk trip last year. For deer I shoot spitfire max. I shoot that setup out of a obsession bow 67# @ 29". I have absolute confidence in the setup.

With that said, I do not disagree with anything Doctor Brady posted.
 
Hoosier I have some weight tubes at home that I never used. They were to be used on a bear hunting trip that I didn't get to go on. I found out my wife was pregnant and the due date was the same as the bear hunt. I guess we should have named him Bear!
Anyway, I'd be happy to send them to you if you think you can use them. I'll get the specifics off of the box when I get home tonight.

Jeff
 
Thanks guys. I really appreciate the input on this. I've shot 3 bulls the last 3 years and have never lost one but last year's kinda made me think I'm a little lite. I'll make the adjustments for a heavier arrow and look at those two blade broadheads.

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I shoot Gold Tip Pros 7595 at 29 inches with 125 gr Slick Trick Mags and a 50 gr brass insert puts me just under 500 grs.
 
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