A few from the farm this yr

Pretty amazing Baker!! Def a dream for most of us.

What situations make it worth upping the anny and feeding high protein deer feed?

Acreage, region, competing food sources etc?

I can post ad nauseum about the use of high protein feed supplement. I'll start by saying from a mgt. perspective it is the last thing most properties would benefit from. Numerous reasons. To state a few , here are some questions that should be answered before considering protein:

Is every other element of you deer herd/mgt plan at 100%?
Deer move around much more than understood. Are you willing to feed knowing the buck your feeding might get shot elsewhere?
Are you willing to feed intensively enough , long enough to make a difference? Studies have shown that the sweet spot is about a feeder per 100 acres to have a material impact on a herd. Studies have also shown [ and my experience collaborates ] it takes at least 3 yrs to see any benefit. From there benefits begin and to some degree they never stop. Epigenetic markers respond to the enhanced environment shifting genetics accordingly.
Are you letting bucks get to the mature age classes where they benefit from a program? No real value to feeding if bucks get shot at 3 or younger.
Are you in a position to keep feeders full, clean and if necessary fenced from hogs, cattle etc.?

I could go on and am happy to. Hopefully this starts to paint a picture. I have a feeder to 60 acres on 1350 acres.My neighbor has a similar scale on all points. we keep them full from Feb-August which hits post rut stress, pregnancy, lactation and antler growth. When all other holes in the management bucket are accounted for I think protein supplementation adds about 10-15% to body and antler size, increases fawn recruitment, increases longevity and makes for a healthier deer herd.


I have no idea why the lines appeared in the script???
 
Thanks for the reply... My answer is yes to most of your questions ... Today I fished some areas that put my property , although only 125 acres ( neighbors selective harvest making about 350 acres between us ) , at about 98% purpose driven . Meaning 98% of my land is serving a wildlife purpose. 40% in crops, 25% in hardwood timber , about 10% in young orchards & new planted tree plantations that double serve as good food & cover areas . 5% in annual plots, 15% in "weeds"/cover/bedding , and about 3% water sources.

I have often pondered what your doing as a herd health boost and not a hunting season attractant !! I like your thought process on the Feb-Aug approach. It's something I may consider going forward as a multi year trial .

Do you feed a " national brand" or a locally mixed feed?
 
I think the management key to minimizing fighting to the degree you can lies in the buck/doe ratio and the age structure. I like 1/1 b/d ratio. I saw your post elsewhere preferring slightly more does. I think the reason we may differ there lies with age structure. I believe if you get enough bucks in the older age classes ...5+ with ample bucks 6+. they exert significant control over the breeding cycle. I also find the older bucks are far less prone to fight. They intimidate younger bucks thru body language and have known their cohorts long enough that most dominance issues are settled. It's the 3 and 4 yr olds that do most of the fighting...and killing each other. But having older age classes I think even moderates the younger ones from fighting, again thru intimidation.

I like 1/1 b/d for several reasons. A tight ratio tightens the rut , effectively shortening it which also limits the time bucks are apt to fight. Also a tighter rut reduces stress on the bucks leading to quicker recovery and a healthier start to the new year. In my case I only want the does necessary to ensure my recruitment goals. Any more are superfluous and limit nutrition.

I have seen properties that had 3-4B/1D. Interestingly fighting increased in that situation. Even the older bucks were killing each other. I theorize it was because there were several mature bucks for every doe coming in estrus. Lots of super stars were found dead.

Be curious if any of the pundits you know have opinions.

Interesting....I agree that age structure likely plays a significant role. As my grandmother would have put it, after checking to be sure no one was looking, young bucks are filled with "piss and vinegar." They're the ones most often itching for a fight to carve out their slot in the hierarchy. They don't seem smart/seasoned enough yet to realize the damages of fighting, where as most of the big boys seem to see fighting as more of a last resort. They'll do it if they have to, but would rather just posture the competition away. Even on the larger free ranges I've managed, I've never been able to get the age structure as solid as those I know that manage behind fences (not a rip on fences, just an observation).

I remember that your fenced areas are very big, but I don't recall how big. I'm guessing that the fence may have something to do with limited fighting at 1:1, as well. In theory, the bucks inside a fence know each other better and have fewer "strangers" showing up during the rut. In theory, they have the chance to more firmly set their hierarchy before the rut kicks in, potentially avoiding more conflicts because of it. The nastiest fights I've seen over the years are between mature bucks during the rut that seemed not to interact before the rut. Now, you have 2 stud, jacked on peaking testosterone that hadn't previously had the chance to determine which if either of them were willing to assume a more submissive role to the other.

As far as flipped buck:doe ratios, I've only lived that once, myself (EHD & BT wiped the deer numbers, with more bucks being left than does). As it only happened once to me, take this with a grain of salt, but the bucks were pure hell on each other. I don't think I had a single 3.5+ yr old buck with a full rack left by Nov 15th. John Ozoga did something similar in his UP enclosure and told me he had similar results.

I've managed supper tight ratios a decent sized handful of times. The buck fights weren't as bad as when more bucks than does, but they sure appeared to be more frequent, definitely more busted up racks than when skewed a bit higher to does, but the buck movement definitely also seems to increase the tighter the ratio. I see the 1:2-2.5 ratio as a balancing point between keeping buck stress lower, while still offering pretty good buck movement during the rut, if that makes any sense.

All that said, I know that none of this has been in a controlled enough environment and even a "decent sized handful of times" is not enough to base firm conclusions on. I do believe there's something to that, though.
 
I post the pic of this buck more to make a point than anything. At 3 yrs old he had 21 pts and would break 170" . I thought he had the potential to break 200". Here he is at 5 and I think smaller than when he was 3 or 4. Any statement as to why would be speculation. But it happens with more frequency than most want to admit. Certainly he might still make another big jump. I don't know. What I do know is that from 3 to 5 he has changed very little. He gets a pass this yr, but at 6 if he is unchanged his future might become limited.IMG_0061.JPG
 
Baker,

If you ever want to sell a hunt to an old bow hunter, keep me in mind. Your bucks far exceed anything we could dream of in TN.

Goodness gracious what a stud in the previous post. ;)
 
Baker.....that 5 year old that hasn't changed much......just goes to show that deer don't follow the "script" that is typically published. Sometimes they get better with age, sometimes not. Sooooo many variables when you live outdoors all year!

Another reason that I shoot a nice deer when I see it as opposed to hoping he will make a big jump at year 4+.
 
Baker.....that 5 year old that hasn't changed much......just goes to show that deer don't follow the "script" that is typically published. Sometimes they get better with age, sometimes not. Sooooo many variables when you live outdoors all year!

Another reason that I shoot a nice deer when I see it as opposed to hoping he will make a big jump at year 4+.

We are in total agreement with all said. What I've seen is antler growth can be somewhat linear up to 4. From 4-6 anyones guess though 'generally' the overall trajectory shows improvement yet can be compromised by countless variables. I still contend that after 6 there is a good chance for one last jump as the bucks have moved out of the fighting, excess chasing rutting mode and assuming a reasonable nutritional plane can show benefit. Not all and maybe not most, but definitely some. Thus it becomes a function of what one is willing to manage for.

I am always supportive of anyone shooting any buck that rings his bell. I am in the fortunate position to get to manage for the exceptional top of the top end.
 
Back
Top