The end of 17 years of QDM

[yoderjac]

It looks like our QDM is coming to an end. We are undersized for QDM we have just under 400 acres with close to another 400 of neighboring cooperating properties. We have been at it since 2006 on this pine farm. The biologist that oversees our DMAP program says he can see some improvement in the data. If there has been an improvement, it has been small, and I'm not completely convinced it is statistically significant.

This property was purchased with others and is held as an LLC. Over time, folks stages of life and priorities have changed. A year ago, other LLC members decided they wanted to sell the entire property so we put it on the market. We were asking significantly more than the current market but comps are hard to find on fairly large tracts of non-farm land in our area.

Last summer we wee approached by a solar company interested in leasing our place for part of a solar farm. We have been in negotiations for a number of months. We finally came to agreement and signed a contract today. The deal has not completely closed yet, but the paperwork is in process.

Under this deal we will receive a little bit of money over the next 4 years while the company does a study and gets the governmental approvals and such. During that time, there may be some disturbance, but for the most part there should be little interference with our hunting. The company could pull out at at any point during that time. Presuming everything works out, there is a roughly 2 year construction period where we won't be able to hunt and our income increases a bit during that period. There is significant income once the facility goes operational. Any land that they don't develop will be released and we will be able to hunt on that. Given our topography and the governmental restrictions with water quality and buffers and such, we will still have a significant amount of huntable land, but if we were on the ratty edge of scale to have measurable impact with QDM before, we will be to undersized to continue it.

Given the income the property will produce, none of the LLC members will want to sell if it goes into production. So, my mindset needs to change from a focus on QDM to a focus on making a smaller property more huntable. We never know the future, and we won't even know how much huntable land will be available for a couple years. But it is time to start thinking about a new approach.

 

[George]

That is a very efficient way to turn 400 acres of habitat into an industrial park.

G

 

[cutman]

Yeah, that sounds awful. Hard pass.

 

[mattpatt]

Don’t do it! We are in the middle of a land grab here where I live in TX and farmers are signing over their property rights in droves to these solar companies only to find out the deal isn’t as sweet as they thought.

You can’t even go take a pee on your own land once they take over and who’s going to clean all that mess off your land once they’re gone and it reverts back to you or your heirs? At the very least please make sure there are clauses in the contract that cover this.

Matt


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[George]

They start out by stripping off all of the top soil.

G

 

[yoderjac]

Don’t do it! We are in the middle of a land grab here where I live in TX and farmers are signing over their property rights in droves to these solar companies only to find out the deal isn’t as sweet as they thought.

You can’t even go take a pee on your own land once they take over and who’s going to clean all that mess off your land once they’re gone and it reverts back to you or your heirs? At the very least please make sure there are clauses in the contract that cover this.

Matt


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Yes, that is why we spent months going back and forth with the contract. We have full access during the next 4 years of study. We then lose access for 2 years during construction. This was hard for me to swallow. Because of our topography, other existing easements, and and government required buffer zones, they will only be able to develop a portion of our property. My personal guess is that they will be able to use a little over half of it. There is no doubt that we will lose habitat.

There are both local government bond requirements as well as contract provisions for remediation when the contract expires. And yes, what we are granting is technically an easement for them to use the land for solar. At the end of the contract, they must remediate it and the easement expires and we still own the land.

All of the points you make are valid concerns but I think we have addressed them in the contract.

All you guys are right, this was a very tough decision. I really hate to see it go. One of the upsides of having partners is that you have a chance to influence enough land to have sufficient scale for QDM. One of the down sides is that peoples priorities change over time. While there is significant financial value in this deal for me personally, If I could have made the decision only for me, I would have passed. However, when I weigh all the other factors, it was best to move forward. I need to take into account the positions of partners and their families as well as what happens in my family after I pass away.

While having a large tract of land to manage for wildlife and hunt has been great while it lasted, I likely won't go in with partners for any future land purchases. I'll likely buy smaller acreage and manage them primarily for hunting.

They start out by stripping off all of the top soil.

G

We are on a pine farm. There is very little topsoil.

 

[mattpatt]

Yes, that is why we spent months going back and forth with the contract. We have full access during the next 4 years of study. We then lose access for 2 years during construction. This was hard for me to swallow. Because of our topography, other existing easements, and and government required buffer zones, they will only be able to develop a portion of our property. My personal guess is that they will be able to use a little over half of it. There is no doubt that we will lose habitat.

There are both local government bond requirements as well as contract provisions for remediation when the contract expires. And yes, what we are granting is technically an easement for them to use the land for solar. At the end of the contract, they must remediate it and the easement expires and we still own the land.

All of the points you make are valid concerns but I think we have addressed them in the contract.

All you guys are right, this was a very tough decision. I really hate to see it go. One of the upsides of having partners is that you have a chance to influence enough land to have sufficient scale for QDM. One of the down sides is that peoples priorities change over time. While there is significant financial value in this deal for me personally, If I could have made the decision only for me, I would have passed. However, when I weigh all the other factors, it was best to move forward. I need to take into account the positions of partners and their families as well as what happens in my family after I pass away.

While having a large tract of land to manage for wildlife and hunt has been great while it lasted, I likely won't go in with partners for any future land purchases. I'll likely buy smaller acreage and manage them primarily for hunting.


We are on a pine farm. There is very little topsoil.

Good deal. Just make sure that once they pull out they are to remove everything above and BELOW the surface. I know folks who did not have this in their contract and were left with a big mess once the term of the contract had expired. Also another instance where the solar company (a foreign company, many of them are) went bankrupt and the property owner was left in limbo for several years before things were settled in court and assets were disbursed. He was not allowed on his own land or do anything with it. His own land. Yet he had to pay property taxes. Gotta love it.


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[Native Hunter]

Don’t do it! We are in the middle of a land grab here where I live in TX and farmers are signing over their property rights in droves to these solar companies only to find out the deal isn’t as sweet as they thought.

You can’t even go take a pee on your own land once they take over and who’s going to clean all that mess off your land once they’re gone and it reverts back to you or your heirs? At the very least please make sure there are clauses in the contract that cover this.

Matt


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Good advice Matt.

This is going on all across the country, but only a small percentage of these are even legitimate - the vast majority are a scam. One of these just fell through in a nearby county, and now all involved are pointing their fingers at everyone else, trying to get out of being blamed. Here is how the scam works:

1. The scam artists locate properties that do have features that might make them attractive for a solar farm. One of the most common features is that a high capacity transmission line is generally nearby, but that isn't absolutely necessary.

2. The scam artists procure investors who think they are going to get rich and start taking their money.

3. They go to the landowners and work out a deal. They use part of the investors' money to pay the landowners a small amount of front end money and get some kind of contract. They may even haul in a few loads of gravel or do other things to give the impression that something is happening.

4. Then they may or may not start legitimately trying to swing some kind of deal with a power supplier - but even if they do try, the chances of anything actually coming to fruition are slim. (There are reasons for this that I won't elaborate on.)

5. This keeps going until at some point everything starts crumbling. At that point the investors are left with nothing, and the landowners might be left with some messes to clean up, or they may just be left feeling embarrassed. And, as you pointed out, they could also be left in limbo and not even able to use their land. But, the scam artists walk away with most of the money and disappear.

 

[Buckly]

It’s the number one scam going right now. Around here it’s simply these companies trying to tie up land so nobody else can. Very, very few of these actually get built. Even less is that these companies are actually legit. There is no income and you’re screwed if you ever want to sell legitimately because it’s tied up. They just use you to get government money for empty promises. Anything you think is all covered by a contract is meaningless when the company disappears, never to be found or heard from again. Hey but, otherwise good luck.

 

[George]

"toxic chemicals in solar panels include cadmium telluride, copper indium selenide, cadmium gallium (di)selenide, copper indium gallium (di)selenide, hexafluoroethane, lead, and polyvinyl fluoride. Silicon tetrachloride, a byproduct of producing crystalline silicon, is also highly toxic."

My guess would be that a lot of these solar fields already installed are destined to being recommissioned as industrial brown fields.

G

 

[Deadeye]

I've seen a BUNCH of these Solar Farms being built here in Florida and they usually say What Power Company they are for: Duke Energy- Florida Power and Light- ETC.

I'd contact the Main Power Company local to you to find out for sure if they are part of it before signing any Contract.

 

[Deadeye]

"toxic chemicals in solar panels include cadmium telluride, copper indium selenide, cadmium gallium (di)selenide, copper indium gallium (di)selenide, hexafluoroethane, lead, and polyvinyl fluoride. Silicon tetrachloride, a byproduct of producing crystalline silicon, is also highly toxic."

My guess would be that a lot of these solar fields already installed are destined to being recommissioned as industrial brown fields.

G

Add to that what is called Black Power which is the HEAT that is created from the Black Surface of the Panels done so to attract the Sun. They get HOT just like anything else Black laid in the Sun does.

It's a real Factor that is just now starting to be discussed.

 

[yoderjac]

Lots of good thought in this thread. State and local governments are catching up with regulations in terms of removal down the road. As for folks just tying up land so it can't be used by others, that was a concern of ours. This company has a good track record, but that doesn't mean it will come to fruition. All kinds of things like permitting could be an issue. They had a bit of a push to get the project approved before the upcoming elections. We structured the contract in such a way that I'll be happy if they pull out and don't build it. We front loaded the payments during the study period. So, since we can hunt and still manage timber during the 4 year study period, if they pull out, I'm better off than I am right now. We keep the payments and it has no negative impact. The best part about it from my perspective is that is unifying our membership (dangling money will do that). The other option was to sell which would leave me with no good place to hunt and not enough money to buy an equivalent place.

There are lots of anti-solar groups out there. Many are funded by the oil and gas industry. There is always a lot of politics involved in projects like this.

One more consideration I've been thinking about is the big picture. This same solar farm is also using a lot of good farm land that is currently being used for crops and cattle. It is probably better in the long run that less fertile land like our pine farm is used for a solar farm than more prime farmland.

 

[William Allis]

Here in WNY we are overrun by solar and wind projects. Keep in mind that without subsidies they cannot sustain themselves. Usually, a 25-year life span and then you have a mess to clean up. Many cannot pass the environmental impact study and the land is tied up in litigation for years. Our property is small, 200 acres, and when approached I demand total payment up front and usually that is the end of the conservation. Most are holding companies run by attorneys and they are looking for a quick short term profit.
"My guess would be that a lot of these solar fields already installed are destined to being recommissioned as industrial brown fields." The taxpayers will pay for the cleanup. "That is a very efficient way to turn 400 acres of habitat into an industrial park." You can burn, herbicide or clear cut a forest, but there is only one way to kill it. Pave it!"

 

[buckdeer1]

I got a letter of interest for a piece of our farmland that lays beside a bigger power line.Looked like it was written by a 3rd grader.Tossed it before I ever got to the bottom line. Why don't you buy the best part of this farm?

 

[yoderjac]

Here in WNY we are overrun by solar and wind projects. Keep in mind that without subsidies they cannot sustain themselves. Usually, a 25-year life span and then you have a mess to clean up. Many cannot pass the environmental impact study and the land is tied up in litigation for years. Our property is small, 200 acres, and when approached I demand total payment up front and usually that is the end of the conservation. Most are holding companies run by attorneys and they are looking for a quick short term profit.
"My guess would be that a lot of these solar fields already installed are destined to being recommissioned as industrial brown fields." The taxpayers will pay for the cleanup. "That is a very efficient way to turn 400 acres of habitat into an industrial park." You can burn, herbicide or clear cut a forest, but there is only one way to kill it. Pave it!"

Solar is certainly in the wild, wild, west stage right now. You really have to be careful. As for cleanup, not only is the cleanup called out in the contract, they are required to put up a barn, and the govt permitting process places even heavier responsibilities on them. in this situation. This company has had a number of successful projects. We researched them. We spent several month going back and forth with the contract with our lawyers.

In are case, the contract gives them a study/permitting period. It was structured to pay us a little more money each year until they go to construction. They can pull out an any time. We changed the fee structure to collect significant dollars up front and then less each year during the study period. If they pull out, it will be profitable for us netting more than the pines we have. Once the begin construction, they pay us for the pines based on our foresters estimate. Money goes up during construction to significant levels and then way up once production begins.

Personally, I'm a bit torn. If they pull out, we get the up front money and still have a place to hunt and continue QDM. If it goes forward, we will still have some hunting as their are wetlands and other places they can't develop, but it will be far less. On the other hand, I don't have kids and as I age, who knows how long I will be able to hunt and manage the place anyway. My wife doesn't hunt and is quite a bit younger than me. I have to think about the income stream for her after I pass.

If it was only me, I'm not sure if I would have gone forward. My partners all wanted to sell the place or go forward with the solar deal. That tipped the scale for me. Unlike many, this property is not my home. It was investment property from the start. It gave me many years of recreational enjoyment and hopefully there will be more in the future. The reason it is a pine farm is that it has poor clay acidic soil. I doubt that if they remediate according to the contract, it would not be suitable for growing pines again. There are risks in everything, and we do the best we can to mitigate them.

 

[William Allis]

Our property is the old family farm that we have/are added to it. Now we spend money and raise wildlife. Hopefully it will never be for sale.

Saw this happen locally. There was 300 acres of forest land that a group of local young friends bought 30-40 years ago for a hunting property. Several years ago one guy got in financial trouble and wanted out. They couldn't come to an agreement on value and ended up liquidating the property. Every one of those guys now say it was the worse decision they ever made. And it broke up a couple of lifelong friendships. At lease this property is second growth timber land and not windmills and solar panels.

 

[yoderjac]

Our property is the old family farm that we have/are added to it. Now we spend money and raise wildlife. Hopefully it will never be for sale.

Saw this happen locally. There was 300 acres of forest land that a group of local young friends bought 30-40 years ago for a hunting property. Several years ago one guy got in financial trouble and wanted out. They couldn't come to an agreement on value and ended up liquidating the property. Every one of those guys now say it was the worse decision they ever made. And it broke up a couple of lifelong friendships. At lease this property is second growth timber land and not windmills and solar panels.

Yep, that is a dilemma for many of of us. Unless you have family property it is very tough to purchase enough hunting land for management. That often results in folks getting together to buy property. In our case we had a total of 5 investor/hunters form the LLC that bought the land. Over time, folks needs and goals change. Things the were important earlier in life are less important now and other things have taken over. While we tried to consider as much as we could and get it into the LLC agreement, you never cover everything.

We bought at the top of the market and several guys wanted out 15 years later but did not want to lose money. Had I not acquiesced to the solar project, I think some lifelong friendships that were tenuous would have snapped.

 

[Drycreek]

I had almost the same offer Jack, but after some thought, I turned it down. It looks good on paper, but since solar power is as much a scam as wind farms are, even when it comes to fruition , I don’t regret that at all.

 

[yoderjac]

I had almost the same offer Jack, but after some thought, I turned it down. It looks good on paper, but since solar power is as much a scam as wind farms are, even when it comes to fruition , I don’t regret that at all.

As I said, we are in the wild, wild west days of solar and you are right that there are lots of scams out there. There are also solid companies. Whether we like it or not, as the younger generation is inheriting power, we are moving more and more toward alternative energy sources. Some of them will prove valuable and economical in the long-run and others just don't add up.

While I do have second thoughts, overall, so far, I'm happy with our decision. If it does not come to fruition, it is clearly a good deal for us. We get reasonable money for a few years and they do nothing but studies. If it does come to fruition, time will tell if I'll be happy with our decision in the long run.

At least for now, other then me, the LLC members are happy and relationships are healing.