Nocturnal deer

[Bullwinkle]

This will sound untrue but I can assure you it is. I have a friend who owns about a section of land down south who has intensively managed it for about 7 years. This guy knows what he's doing

He has about 30 acres of great plots and feeding destinations

The property was overrun with does when he bought it. He put in a no buck rule for a while and hammered the does. 20-30/year for about 3 years to get the population under control

The last 3 years his deer have gone nocturnal. He hired a trapper to control predators. That's not the problem. The deer are there, they eat his 30 acres of plots every year. He has a great number of mature deer but they don't see them and they see very few deer hunting

He's talked to the top consultants. The conclusion is he has a generational issue that the deer have been trained to move at night.

Anyone ever have this problem?

The more experienced I become, the more and more I become convinced low pressure does are key to great hunting. We've really cut back. No does are shot on plots (except youth weekend) and we only hunt does on the property lines. If possible don't take does with guns

 

[Chummer]

Yes I have heard of it. It is called most of NY state.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Uggg. I thought the issue was numbers in NY?

I thought deer feed 4-5 times a day.

There is no way it's human pressure. Hardly ever goes in the woods. Hunts very few people and uses a badboy

How do you fix it? He's going to keep hiring the trapper, cut down on the food and stopping all for harvests. His neighbors are seeing the same issue

 

[lakngolf]

Our daytime sightings decrease drastically once season starts especially gun. They are programmed

 

[Chummer]

We have a short early bow season and I am the only one in the neighborhood that bows hunt. I see more deer in those 2-4 sits than I see in the following 7 weeks. It's not just the hunting pressure, every truck that passes a deer slams on the brakes to check it out. It is a cumulative effect but after opening day the deer know what is up. Not sure why your buddies place is so bad. I get it at my place, lots of bad hunters, with bad practices. Deer would be extinct if they couldn't figure these guys out.

 

[Native Hunter]

This situation Bull described doesn't surprise me.

The deer that didn't get killed are mostly the ones with a higher level of intelligence and survival instinct. It kept them from being one of the victims, and three years of that was like watching the same movie over and over until you can recite all the lines from memory.

Individual deer have different personalities and traits just like people do. There are ways we are all the same, but there are ways we are all different.

The way the guy went about thinning the population worked in essence like a deadly communicable disease infiltrating a society of humans in ancient times - only the strongest survived, and those that did survive grew stronger and wiser.

There is a difference here compared to the situation that several have described (and I too have witnessed in the past) of deer having a tendency to become extremely cautious for a while after the second or third day of gun season. It's like comparing the San Bernardino terrorist attack with the war in Aleppo - both are tragic and horrible, but there is a big difference in how quickly life gets back to normal for the general population.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Native - great point. Never put it together like that

Opening day last year I heard my first 100 shots in 25 min. This year was so windy it took 3.5 hours but 37 min on Sunday. You're right. This doesn't last long and by mid week when the blaze orange settles down deer are back to normal feeding in daylight. Monday is my slowest day opening week. My buddy pounded them all gun season

 

[Bullwinkle]

You know in WI they keep adding extra gun weeks for high population doe areas. We had a special doe only long weekend in Dec and then a week long holiday hunt.

My neighbors shot 3 does this weekend. Training the deer with this constant pressure is good reason not to participate.

 

[Chainsaw]

Welcome back Bullwinkle;Your thread subjects are always interesting. I think if you shoot the does real hard (hard being whatever you need to kill in a few days) near the end of the season the remaining deer will be back to "normal" a few weeks later. By near the end of the season I mean as late as possible but before the bucks drop their antlers. When we had so many deer and were shooting many, many does a season it really didn't reduce the population down much. It seemed more would just move in from surrounding areas. However the bucks and the does became difficult to hunt as each week of shooting does passed as we then thought shooting the does early was the best timing. It wasn't until seemingly everyone in the area got on board with shooting does that we saw the population drop suddenly.

I think that driving the does to lie low via prolonged harvesting of them automatically includes the bucks because so much of the bucks' activity is centered around the doe activity. And of course the does are going to make themselves scarce. And of course pressure on does equals pressure on bucks. Bucks don't realize that your buddy is targeting just the does.

 

[catscratch]

Does are also the mothers... the mothers that teach their children how to survive. A buck raised by a doe who knows how to survive hunting pressure will know the same tricks she does. Bought the land 7yrs ago and 4yrs later they don't see any mature bucks in the daylight? Takes about 4yrs to become a mature buck....

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[Bullwinkle]

Welcome back Bullwinkle;Your thread subjects are always interesting. I think if you shoot the does real hard (hard being whatever you need to kill in a few days) near the end of the season the remaining deer will be back to "normal" a few weeks later. By near the end of the season I mean as late as possible but before the bucks drop their antlers. When we had so many deer and were shooting many, many does a season it really didn't reduce the population down much. It seemed more would just move in from surrounding areas. However the bucks and the does became difficult to hunt as each week of shooting does passed as we then thought shooting the does early was the best timing. It wasn't until seemingly everyone in the area got on board with shooting does that we saw the population drop suddenly.

I think that driving the does to lie low via prolonged harvesting of them automatically includes the bucks because so much of the bucks' activity is centered around the doe activity. And of course the does are going to make themselves scarce. And of course pressure on does equals pressure on bucks. Bucks don't realize that your buddy is targeting just the does.

Spot on

 

[Blizzard Ridge]

I think that there is a fine line in our management practices of helping and hurting the deer hunting. All of our practices indeed help the deer but all of the disturbance can send the deer into a nocturnal state. In my opinion low pressure is the #2 key to killing big mature bucks. #1 is having them to kill in the first place. In my part of the world the nutrition is already in play so it is just a matter of low pressure and not having the neighbors kill them all off so that we have them. As long as we have enough food to hold the deer to keep them from traveling too much from our farm we can somewhat control what gets killed and how they are being hunted.

I think the states that have extended gun season will send old mature deer to being primarily nocturnal even if that pressure is kept off of our own farms. Those old bucks know, they have been there and done that enough times at this point in their life that you would have to step on him to kill him. I believe early season and late season is the secret to killing those old bucks that have gone nocturnal. Those hunger pains can be more deadly to an old buck than a hot doe IMO.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Does are also the mothers... the mothers that teach their children how to survive. A buck raised by a doe who knows how to survive hunting pressure will know the same tricks she does. Bought the land 7yrs ago and 4yrs later they don't see any mature bucks in the daylight? Takes about 4yrs to become a mature buck....

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100% agree. Just to add, can't say this is my original thought, Sturgis gave it to me - if a buck disperses some come back during the rut when they are 4-5 years old. If they were taught to be nocturnal at a young age, dispersal might spread this habit and i want any 4-5 year old revisiting my farm to come in daylight.

I know I got a lot of razz on QDM for protecting does - I have more resolve than ever to keep your pressure low and the doe population a little on the high side. Getting away from summer attraction plots as not to create a doe factory seems to have worked again this year

 

[catscratch]

100% agree. Just to add, can't say this is my original thought, Sturgis gave it to me - if a buck disperses some come back during the rut when they are 4-5 years old. If they were taught to be nocturnal at a young age, dispersal might spread this habit and i want any 4-5 year old revisiting my farm to come in daylight.

I know I got a lot of razz on QDM for protecting does - I have more resolve than ever to keep your pressure low and the doe population a little on the high side. Getting away from summer attraction plots as not to create a doe factory seems to have worked again this year

I have the same ideology, maybe a different approach. I never spook deer where I hunt (I wait until it's light enough to glass my stand area before entering. If there are deer there I wait until they are gone before entering, or go to a different spot.) I never hunt a spot that I can't sneak into and out of without bumping deer. I never shoot a doe unless she is alone.

My methods aren't for everyone, or maybe anyone but me. I can tell you that every buck I had on camera this was seen in the daylight, by me, in a none rut situation this season.

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[Bullwinkle]

I have the same ideology, maybe a different approach. I never spook deer where I hunt (I wait until it's light enough to glass my stand area before entering. If there are deer there I wait until they are gone before entering, or go to a different spot.) I never hunt a spot that I can't sneak into and out of without bumping deer. I never shoot a doe unless she is alone.

My methods aren't for everyone, or maybe anyone but me. I can tell you that every buck I had on camera this was seen in the daylight, by me, in a none rut situation this season.

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I've learned if you stay in a stand till it's really dark you'd be amazed at how much you can get away with. Last year I climbed down at dark with 3 does at 35 yards. By the time I was at the base of the tree one was at 15 and coming closer. I walked directly away from her and she didn't spook at all!!

Interesting idea of shooting lone deer. We don't do this because most of the time that one is the nubby buck. Just think of all the fawns you train if you dump momma in the plot right in front of the fawns?

 

[catscratch]

I've learned if you stay in a stand till it's really dark you'd be amazed at how much you can get away with. Last year I climbed down at dark with 3 does at 35 yards. By the time I was at the base of the tree one was at 15 and coming closer. I walked directly away from her and she didn't spook at all!!

Interesting idea of shooting lone deer. We don't do this because most of the time that one is the nubby buck. Just think of all the fawns you train if you dump momma in the plot right in front of the fawns?

Bingo! Never dump mom in front of the twins. And on the flip side, never shoot a baby in front of mom. After shooting something sneak out and return with the ranch truck to stomp around... they are use to it and it doesn't mean danger, just activity.
I figure if mom is by herself she isn't a good momma for whatever reason and needs taken out of the gene pool. Or she is just unlucky.
I haven't put an arrow through a nubbin since I was a teenager (a couple of decades ago) so that isn't really a concern for me but if I accidentally do, I'm not going to worry about it.
Like I said, my methods are differ than most. What isn't different is low pressure = more daylight sightings.

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[Bullwinkle]

Cat - I am completely with you. I don't know if you crew is good enough to shoot single deer but completely agree lone does are the animal to take

I really think shooting them in the woods vs a plot makes a huge difference too. Especially right on the fence line

 

[catscratch]

If family groups come through I just set and watch, a single will eventually come through.
Spot on with the food plots! That's another part of the equation, and a spot I never hunt. Right now I seldom hunt within a half mile of a plot.

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[Triple C]

Bull...Great topic. I had this same discussion this past week with a member on the local forum that says he's only seen one deer in daylight in his plots for a number of years. I watched 10 feed in front on me New Year's eve from about 3:00 to 5:30. Sat the same blind yesterday from 9:45 to about 12:00 and had one of the same groups come into the field and feed mid morning for about 45 minutes. Didn't shoot any of them. Just watched. Had a guest down Friday afternoon and put him in a food plot stand and told him there was a 95% chance he would see multiple deer. He harvested a doe. I'd venture to say that almost every sit over a food plot will produce deer sightings, particularly this time of year.

Sounds like from your friend's experience, we don't need to go on a doe killing spree, particularly in food plots. We are just finishing our 6th season on the property. It gets better each season. I've invited 3 guests this year and all took deer and all in plots. Many, many days, and often weeks go by during the season without anyone hunting a particular plot. Prolly never been more than 2 days in a row that the same plot has had a sit over it. I can buy into the pressure thing but not seeing any deer during daylight in a productive food plot is just hard to imagine.

 

[lakngolf]

Triple C (ha, I tried to type a capital C and phone went with Crown. So u have new name) You are fortunate to have so many daytime sightings. We had that when years ago when does were legal only three days. Also we see it during bow season and first couple days of gun. Then pressure and they go dark. And the food is there so they do not have to hunt it.

We have hunters all around and national forest to the south. You have a more isolated setup. Stay with your plan!