catscratch
Well-Known Member
4 days after 24d.
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Multiple sprayings for resistant weeds?
- Thread starter catscratch
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catscratch
Well-Known Member
What gly does to it.
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swat1018
Well-Known Member
I just hit a 4 ac plot full of pig weed, water hemp, and mare's tail yesterday. 1 qt liberty, 3# AMS, 8oz crop oil. Drilled liberty beans in. I burnt it down this spring and planted RR beans, that was a waste. I'm going to kill the garbage somehow. The mare's tail is starting to droop 24 hr. later. How long does liberty take to make things crispy?
bigbluetruck
Active Member
What was your 2-4D rate catscratch? And remember that you should soak it, not most it. Any surfactants/AMS? It all makes a difference.
This is from my 2017 Nebraska weed guide.
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This is from my 2017 Nebraska weed guide.
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bigbluetruck
Active Member
It should start showing serious signs in 3-4 days I think, biggest thing about Liberty only is getting it applied correctly, most cheaper sprayers don't provide enough coverage of the plant, which is more important than with gly.
Not to pick on catscratch but if you notice in my picture, glyphosate is not listed as approved control of marestail. Yes it can and will kill some of it, but if he had mixed another mode of action like 2-4d in with his gly he wouldn't be having a problem right now. IMO any spraying operation should include at least 2 modes of action, along with the proper additives.
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catscratch
Well-Known Member
No offense taken, I'm relatively new at herbicide use and am only comfortable with gly. Learning everyday...
Label called for 1.33 oz/gallon, I rounded up and mixed 1.5 oz/gallon. I used a squirt of Dawn with it. As you know my initial burndown was gly only. I won't make that mistake again. I might start over on the plot that had the most of it, no plot of sunflowers is worth letting these seed out, it won't bother me a bit to run over it again with a tank of gly and 24d mix. If I do that, how many oz per gallon (of each) should I use?
bigbluetruck
Active Member
What are you wanting to plant in it and how soon?
For gly I wouldn't go with less than 32oz/acre and in your case, probably the same of 2-4d (which I hope is amine, it should say on it).
For spot spraying we always use 3-4oz gly and 2-4d per gallon and haven't seen anything live through it yet. Which isn't far off if you figure that minimum gal/a.c. rate with water is 10 for both IIRC, but I'd figure on 12.
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For gly I wouldn't go with less than 32oz/acre and in your case, probably the same of 2-4d (which I hope is amine, it should say on it).
For spot spraying we always use 3-4oz gly and 2-4d per gallon and haven't seen anything live through it yet. Which isn't far off if you figure that minimum gal/a.c. rate with water is 10 for both IIRC, but I'd figure on 12.
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Heart shot
Active Member
Will RR BEANS live thru 2-4D? If mixed with gly? Or will it smoke everything?
bigbluetruck
Active Member
No, there are no beans that will tolerate 2-4d. What are you trying to control?
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10-20% forbs/weeds in grassland is healthy and should cause no alarm. In vibrant grassland, most of the problem forbs/weeds will be stunted from the grass canopy effects.....and most likely what problematic weeds are there are in areas with inadequate soil cover (ie where you expect weeds to grow and grass struggle...say ditches and roadsides and long term stock loafing areas).
IF you have more than a few scattered marestail in pasture (toss in goldenrod and annual broomweed as weed similars), then the issue is lack of competition in the root zone UNDER the soil surface...and that is an unintended consequence of current pasture management...has zero to do with gly or 2,4-D. Current grazing or mowing routine is removing too much grass leaf material initially or removing leaf regrowth too soon from the perennial grasses before the plant has sufficient time to fully recover (new green leaves with pointed tips plus sufficient senesced leaves to form a mulch). The grasses are stressed to the point they must use root energy reserves to grow new leaf....this shrinks their root dominance in soil....and opens the door for weeds! Managing for grass to attain 'full recovery' before removing leaf material is the only long term recourse to a weed issue!
In plots, simply go with higher rates of annual grass plants (cereal rye in the cool season mix and sorghums/millets in the warm season mix) until weeds are at tolerable levels. Let each grass type reach mid maturity before terminating and planting the next annual blend. I see a lot of weed issues in plots on forums after rye senesces in areas with long warm growing seasons....the reason for that is millets/sorghums didn't follow rye and Mother Nature filled in the gaps with Her plants when the opportunity presented itself. That opportunity occurs when lower rye leaves have senesced during the maturity process and sunlight penetrates through stems to the soil surface! Ironically, that is the same stage of rye growth when seed for the next crop should be in the ground! All 3 of those grass type annuals are more than capable of suppressing weeds when using mixed cover crops....even in ag areas with high level history of nasty resistant weeds! Wheat won't do it for you!
The spraying you are doing is a costly temporary fix only....as there will come another day and another weed resistance issue. Herbicide doesn't address the 'root cause of weeds' mentioned above...only good grass management can do that! Weekly spraying will simply keep hammering soil life to the point nothing grows really well (including what you want or what you'd like to see return)!
For now, just sit back and watch the remaining weeds. When they start to flower late this summer, cut their heads off with a blade! Then get a cereal rye based mix planted on time! Plan a spring mix during winter!
A mentor of mine told me many years ago 'manage for what plants you need to manage for and what plants you don't want will fade'!
Watch this video....how one farmer used cover crops to reclaim a field....after all the experts and modern chemical miracles threw in the towel!
Treating the Farm as an Ecosystem Part 2 with Russell Hedrick
Here's some marestail that I sprayed with the 4oz/gal rate about a week ago.
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This pic illustrates my point perfectly....top of pic: fully recovered grass (pointed green leaves with understory of old grass leaf thatch) and no weed issue....bottom of pic: weed issue in absence of fully recovered grass and lack of old grass leaf thatch covering soil. How to avoid spraying?...resistance issues? Grow and allow full recovery of rye...or..sorghum/millet that you planted....fully cover soil with stuff you want to see grow! You may not want to see a grass in what you plant but your circumstances may make that a 'need'!
bigbluetruck
Active Member
That pic was the edge of a road ditch, so it's a different situation, but I wanted to make sure it wasn't spreading seeds to the field on the other side. That ditch is never mowed or grazed.
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bigbluetruck
Active Member
From his post, it sounded like he completely sprayed the field with roundup, so yes it was a failure because while it did kill most of what was there, it didn't get the last 10% or whatever, remember he was spraying a non selective, so it was supposed to kill everything. I'm suggesting this to fix his problem for short term, then work on the long term solution.
There are weeds, and then there are things like marestail, musk thistles, cockleburrs and a few others that should be killed any way they can.
I do see promise in the whole holistic management, but there will always be a place, time and need for chemicals, especially in no till. For example, I have a field of alfalfa that's ready to be rotated out, it's been 7 years and it's starting to thin out and not produce. So in theory since it hasn't been sprayed for anything since the year before it was seeded, I could qualify it for organic, but how do you kill alfalfa without chemicals? Easy, you plow it under as deep as you can, and then disk it's couple dozen times, but that's kinda the opposite of no till. Or I could spray it with 2-4d next spring and plant it to corn with no problems. Could organic no till make me a millionaire? Sure, if I was a billionaire. They are contridictions of each other in production ag.
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There are weeds, and then there are things like marestail, musk thistles, cockleburrs and a few others that should be killed any way they can.
I do see promise in the whole holistic management, but there will always be a place, time and need for chemicals, especially in no till. For example, I have a field of alfalfa that's ready to be rotated out, it's been 7 years and it's starting to thin out and not produce. So in theory since it hasn't been sprayed for anything since the year before it was seeded, I could qualify it for organic, but how do you kill alfalfa without chemicals? Easy, you plow it under as deep as you can, and then disk it's couple dozen times, but that's kinda the opposite of no till. Or I could spray it with 2-4d next spring and plant it to corn with no problems. Could organic no till make me a millionaire? Sure, if I was a billionaire. They are contridictions of each other in production ag.
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Herbicide is a tool under holistic management.....just one among several tools for weed control listed in the HMI manual. If 2,4-D is the most favorable choice on alfalfa in terms of economics, social issues and ecology then use it!
Mow each weed (or use high stock density) you mention at the right time and there are few issues in a fallow plot or a well managed pasture...spray ain't needed! Ag or hay field different context due to potential for stored feed or grain contamination with weeds or weed seeds. Again...HMI is about context first....then choosing the most applicable tool for that context.
Organic no-till is tough logistics for sure. Some now attempting that are using tillage to break the sod first then starting the organic no-till process with diverse cover crops and diverse cash crop rotation. That is more favorable for soil health and function than frequent heavy tillage common to current organic systems which destroys soil structure.
Why not just scalp the alfalfa field next spring for a final hay cutting to suppress whatever is there, then run the corn planter right behind the baler. What is it going to hurt to let alfalfa regrow under corn? Dent corn is $3...not much margin there. You'd be out cost of open pollinated non-GMO seed plus planting expense. Then sell as non-GMO corn or seed or producer certified organic....maybe a few more $/bu in sales. What's the risk on 5ac?....could you sleep well at night risking only 5 ac?
Weed control never has existed....because the next crop season sees more weeds to suppress!
Regardless of soil moisture status (excepting a desert or semi-arid area), pigweeds will always be a common plant on soils with excess soluble forms of soil nitrogen (and some other excess fertilizer salts) combined with bare or poorly covered soil....same for lambsquarters and most other 'high quality forbs' in ag fields. In native prairie rarely ever is soluble soil N in excess.....and pig weeds are equally rare. Overuse of synthetic N creates more weed issues than most people realize...yet it's the second most common 'cure all' right behind overreliance on herbicides! Pigweed's herbicide resistance to glyphosate is built into the physiology of the plant....lower stem can survive herbicide and resprout, root can survive herbicide and resprout, seed set is extreme....it was a tough plant to suppress before roundup came on the scene...herbicide mis-use made it even tougher!
Notice in one of the pics above with mares tail.....there are also tall common mullin skeletons present in the field.....those are found mostly on low OM, dry/ well drained soil, which is ill covered and low in phosphorous availability....and when perennial WSG are managed for...mullin fades. Probably few if any pigweed on that site. Type of weed present tells a story....often indicating the underlying soil issue causing the weed outbreak.
catscratch
Well-Known Member
So, what I'm gathering is that I should plant millet right now and not let it mature. Maybe keep it mowed a couple of times during the summer? This fall is gets replaced with cereal rye (why won't wheat work?).
We have very little marestail in pasture, I see a plant periodically here and there but not many. The issue is mainly in my plots that has been throw-n-mow... and are not being grazed at all due to the fact that they are basically my yard. No fence yet.
The mullins in the background is growing on soil disturbed when we built our house. Very rocky and steep site. My hope is to get Big/Little bluestem and Indian grass on that rocky slop but it's been nothing but mullins, sumac, and redbud since the machinery went through it.
We have very little marestail in pasture, I see a plant periodically here and there but not many. The issue is mainly in my plots that has been throw-n-mow... and are not being grazed at all due to the fact that they are basically my yard. No fence yet.
The mullins in the background is growing on soil disturbed when we built our house. Very rocky and steep site. My hope is to get Big/Little bluestem and Indian grass on that rocky slop but it's been nothing but mullins, sumac, and redbud since the machinery went through it.
catscratch
Well-Known Member
I wanted the plot to be a mix of sunflowers and millet. I'm flexible though and will gladly do whatever it takes to keep this crop of weeds from becoming an issue next yr. I could burn it down right now and plant this weekend, or wait until fall and put in my cereal grains mix.
It is amine...
Thanks for the herbicide numbers. I'm right on with my gly but haven't been mixing 24d with it. I should have on burndown. I've been trying to use straight 24d in my spot spraying as I don't like to kill a bunch of 2 foot circles in the pastures or plots when I hit thistle and sericea. Dead spots seem to attract more problems.
catscratch
Well-Known Member
I take some of that back, I really want a chicory plot. I witnessing a ton of deer use on the chicory in my plots and my wife would love to have a solid blue field out there next summer. Is chicory a possibility with the management direction I should be going?
