What would you do?

[Bullwinkle]

i have a 40 not connected to my other parcels

In the nieghbors alfalfa field we counted 90 deer last week at one time

We took 6 does to try to help control the neighborhood population. The farmer was complaining about too many deer. I am new to the neighborhood so thought I’d help

Well the farmer took only a couple of does and the large land owners on the other sides of me took zero- trophy hunted

Taking 6 does on 40 acres obviously put pressure on the parcel and did little to help the situation. I don’t have hardwood regen concerns on the land.

My thinking - no more does except if you want one with the bow. Join the rest of the neighborhood in low pressure. As long as the farmer is willing to feed them, it should be sustainable. If he gets crop damage - great, I’ll be part of the sanctuary.

 

[Bigeight]

Our properties do the same thing every year at this time. We are the only decent area with good cover/thermal cover and food left over for winter food source. (as well as low pressure during the season)

I counted 41 deer last time I hunted on a 20 acre woodlot that came out to a few areas with standing beans that the farmer couldn't harvest in those areas because it was to wet.

My BIL drove around the area covering an area about 3-4 square miles during the last hour of daylight that same night and only saw about a handful of deer in the harvested Ag fields....

The same areas In November right after crop harvest had 6-10 in each field. Seemed we had about perfect numbers and balance from our hunt observations as well.

Its what deer do in the winter. The concentrate on the best food source/or bedding available. Whatever one they need. Sometimes the numbers that need to rely on that food source/bedding area get ridiculous depending on what the rest of the area has to offer. By this time of year, I bet deer from 3 - 5 miles away are in our little woodlots relying on our thermal cover/brows and small winter plots. No one else addresses these needs.

My suggestion is do whatever you want for your goals. It's 40 acres. You probably aren't going to impact the "herd" that much anyways. Shoot 20 does, or none. You'll probably see 90 deer in that same alfalfa field next winter after the new year again

BTW, we took 16 does this year from 3 different woodlots < 20 acres in size.

 

[Bullwinkle]

The way I see it -With small property you really are stuck following the momentum of does harvests if the neighbors don’t shoot does. If you don’t you kind of shoot yourself in the foot by creating high pressure and actually help the neighbors trophy hunt

We are hearing an ever increasing drum beat of doe only 2018. Shall be an interesting spring

 

[swat1018]

Wow, I was thinking you would have figured out how this will end up by now.

 

[Chainsaw]

What would I do is a pretty straight forward question Bull with no straight forward answer. Further what would I or anyone else do might be wrong for your goals. The question is what are your goals. Here are what I am surmising are your possible goals on the forty acres.

Optional goal #1. Shoot the most amount of deer possible consistent with good population management. It sounds like deer wise there is no reasonable limit to the amount of deer that can be taken off of this forty acres. It is the perfect opportunity for this type of goal.

Optional goal #2. Shoot the most amount of trophy deer possible in 2018. We all know the drill for accomplishing that and it is consistent with what the neighborhood is doing.

Optional goal #3. Shoot the most amount and highest quality of trophy deer possible over the next fifteen years. We also all know the drill for accomplishing that goal as well. Unfortunately it requires managing the local herd population so the deer and habitat remain at peak health throughout the year. Since you would be the only one managing the population you would be as you said shooting yourself in the foot. As the smallest landowner there is no way you can control the herd; possibly it would take shooting 50 to 100 does a year off of your forty acres. And even then it would only suffice if properties bordering the large parcels bordering you were not also over run with deer.

Letting the state take over is likely not going to meet most peoples' goals. It is just almost HOPELESS to accomplish goal # 3! Unless someone, a leader type who has time and drive gets all of the landowners together and can make them understand where letting the population explode further is going to lead, then goal # 3 is not achievable. Further not only must all adjoining landowners understand what will happen they all must agree to do their part in controlling the population.

So the question of what would I do really depends on your goals and resultant strategies, the importance you place on those goals and your time resources available to achieve them. We all know what needs to be done but realistically one person with forty acres can not manage the deer herd on an entire section of property.

So pick your goals and what to do will just scream right out at you.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Thoughtful response as always Chainsaw

I didn’t even hunt this 40 this year, only guests

My goal is to have fun with it, bought it for guests, but the trophy hunting going on has my attention. It seems to be working. By far our opportunities for trophies on this 40 trumped my main farm the last 2 years and my farm has a better buck to do ratio.

Right now if we lost 1/2 the population to over winter kill we’d still be higher than the goal the state wants. I’ve not experienced this level of dpsm before but as the small guy I think it’s smart to go with the flow.

It’s wild what’s going on up here. I’ll have a good experiment the next few years. A parcel with an extreme population vs one with a more balanced buck to doe ratio. If you have the food, and don’t mind the habitat damage, higher numbers may work in your favor to get trophies

Theory - you may be better off having neighbors seriously passing young bucks and not shooting does vs shooting does and not being as committed to passing young bucks???

 

[Baker]

Please define trophies?

 

[swat1018]

"If you have the food, and don't mind the habitat damage" ??? If they had food, there wouldn't be habitat damage.

 

[Bullwinkle]

5+ year olds

But with new hunters and guests, the data is suspect. A 3 year old is a monster in some eyes.

In WI - on my area- as long as the deer can make it through the winter they have more than they can eat the rest of the year.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Had good buddy sit tonight

42 deer, 9 bucks

High deer population is fun none the less. I was happy with the sightings. 4 does to one buck is not great but not horrible

 

[Chainsaw]

Had good buddy sit tonight

42 deer, 9 bucks

High deer population is fun none the less. I was happy with the sightings. 4 does to one buck is not great but not horrible

Bull, if the 42 deer seen are representative of the whole then I'd call it an excellent ratio for a post season buck to doe ratio. That is very good info and much better than I have guessed from discussions. That info really changes everything. If every one of the 33 does and 9 bucks survived this coming winter and you had a 1.0 recruitment rate per doe that would give you an additional 16.5 bucks and an additional 16.5 does for a new total population of deer with 25.5 bucks and 49.5 does or 1 buck for every 1.9411 does. Seems like a great preseason ratio to me. Anybody see anything wrong with my math which admittedly is not what it once was?

Naturally having all bucks and does survive is a best case scenario but still it shows that your ratio is pretty good despite not enough does being shot and the few shot on your property did help the ratio. On the other hand a higher recruitment rate would likely further improve the buck to doe ratio. Thus the prescription for that area might be to do four simple things, simple but of course not easy.
1.Verify the buck to doe ratio maybe via a camera study before the bucks lose their antlers if possible.
2. Get the neighbors to participate in the harvesting of a few does-nothing stupid, just to result in a reduction of about 10 does per 42 deer on the properties which counting natural deaths might keep you even on the doe population of today.
3.Increase the buck and doe over winter survival rate and condition, the recruitment rate by heavy winter season logging areas in parts of each property each year leaving tops of course(small areas each year), heavy winter hinge cut areas in parts of each property(again, small areas each year), and continued expansion of conifer planted areas to a point of course.
4. plant 75% of all food plots with the goal of helping to feed deer thru winter and spring as well as hide fawns from birth thru the middle of July and only plant 25% of all food plots for fall attraction.

This of course could only go on with these elevated populations for so long but it likely could go on even better than today and even a lot longer. All it takes is for the landowners to get together, agree on their goals and put together a plan to each take responsibility for doing their part and a process for monitoring the entire effort as well as measuring the results and adjusting things each year. Like you said Bull, your area is unique because most everyone mentioned appears to have the same goal of letting the deer age and shooting "better" deer. In most properties elsewhere property owner goals simply don't match up and due to so many small property owners likely will never match up. So if your buck to doe ratio is represented by those 42 deer, your situation is not as dire as it appeared. So what would I do? I'd consider hosting an area landowner party and see if you might have enough participation to make this work. You have some exciting possibilities there Bull if the area landowners choose to work together rather than compete with each other. I realize I know so little about your area so my ideas could be way off target but that's what I see from the info I now have.

 

[Bigeight]

REALLY good post Chainsaw !

Only thing I would add, is that you a really overthinking this with 40 acres.

You use the term "pressure" a LOT when you refer to harvesting does.

If your GOAL (not want) is to harvest a 5.5 yr old off this property, you need to hunt/treat it like that is the goal in mind. You can't trounce hunters through it, and let your buddies hunt it like it's one of your throw away properties. If it's good and can produce deer like you dream of, use it like so.

Get an acre or 2 that is highly attractive for the opener of bow season where you would be able to monitor if their is a target buck on a summer feeding pattern. If not, don't hunt it, or let your entourage hunt there.

Invest in a couple of wireless cameras to monitor for you on the 40, with zero impact checking cameras. Huge if you lack visual barriers for bedded deer like regeneration.

Wait till the rut to put in your (or friends) hours IF a 5.5 yr old shows up on camera, but wasn't on your food source during daylight for early season.

Like Chainsaw said, put a lot of stock in winter food for overwintering, and late season. Run the wireless cams on this food source. Don't hunt it until you have one patterned. Late season patterns are gold for old bucks.

You, like us have multiple properties we can hunt. So you don't "have" to hunt there to get in a tree. These wireless cams have been a game changer for us, not needing to pressure a small woodlot until we have a situation that meets our GOAL. Then strike. Every hunt on that 40 before a 5.5 is killable on it is a negative affect on your GOAL.

The people that kill whoppers every year on small properties, are SO disciplined in their approach its crazy. I'm not there, but hunting less, and smarter has been HUGE for my hunting partners and I since we started running wireless cams a few years ago on small properties. The live feed information is extremely valuable. Don't waste sits.

Best thing that happened for our mature buck encounters...we all had kids. We don't have time to hunt all the time anymore. Better pick and choose your days wisely

 

[dogghr]

I'm confused or dumb. 42 deer . If that is even half the total in a sq mile/640 ac, then even conservatively that is dsm of 150+. If 5 yo bucks are common under this system, then none of us should be shooting any does and let our population explode. I know that is prime ag land, but I can't fathom 150 class bucks in poor browse management being common. Can't wait for the predator to track down this area and then the fun begins. Maybe I need to rethink population control if this is all true.

 

[Chainsaw]

Dogghr, just to be clear we are not advocating the area needs more does but that an increase in the recruitment rate per doe is the most efficient way to increase buck production and buck to doe ratio. Then yes the extra does created must be offset by either natural elimination or more likely hunter harvesting.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Bull, if the 42 deer seen are representative of the whole then I'd call it an excellent ratio for a post season buck to doe ratio. That is very good info and much better than I have guessed from discussions. That info really changes everything. If every one of the 33 does and 9 bucks survived this coming winter and you had a 1.0 recruitment rate per doe that would give you an additional 16.5 bucks and an additional 16.5 does for a new total population of deer with 25.5 bucks and 49.5 does or 1 buck for every 1.9411 does. Seems like a great preseason ratio to me. Anybody see anything wrong with my math which admittedly is not what it once was?

Naturally having all bucks and does survive is a best case scenario but still it shows that your ratio is pretty good despite not enough does being shot and the few shot on your property did help the ratio. On the other hand a higher recruitment rate would likely further improve the buck to doe ratio. Thus the prescription for that area might be to do four simple things, simple but of course not easy.
1.Verify the buck to doe ratio maybe via a camera study before the bucks lose their antlers if possible.
2. Get the neighbors to participate in the harvesting of a few does-nothing stupid, just to result in a reduction of about 10 does per 42 deer on the properties which counting natural deaths might keep you even on the doe population of today.
3.Increase the buck and doe over winter survival rate and condition, the recruitment rate by heavy winter season logging areas in parts of each property each year leaving tops of course(small areas each year), heavy winter hinge cut areas in parts of each property(again, small areas each year), and continued expansion of conifer planted areas to a point of course.
4. plant 75% of all food plots with the goal of helping to feed deer thru winter and spring as well as hide fawns from birth thru the middle of July and only plant 25% of all food plots for fall attraction.

This of course could only go on with these elevated populations for so long but it likely could go on even better than today and even a lot longer. All it takes is for the landowners to get together, agree on their goals and put together a plan to each take responsibility for doing their part and a process for monitoring the entire effort as well as measuring the results and adjusting things each year. Like you said Bull, your area is unique because most everyone mentioned appears to have the same goal of letting the deer age and shooting "better" deer. In most properties elsewhere property owner goals simply don't match up and due to so many small property owners likely will never match up. So if your buck to doe ratio is represented by those 42 deer, your situation is not as dire as it appeared. So what would I do? I'd consider hosting an area landowner party and see if you might have enough participation to make this work. You have some exciting possibilities there Bull if the area landowners choose to work together rather than compete with each other. I realize I know so little about your area so my ideas could be way off target but that's what I see from the info I now have.

Spot on Chainsaw. Thanks for taking the time to respond with this detail. Sorry I was late to respond. Out of cell range

Hog hunting with bow in TX. Took 4. This one was biggest. They had me 15 yards from the bait in a pop up - one of the most exciting bow hunts I’ve had

 

[Bullwinkle]

REALLY good post Chainsaw !

Only thing I would add, is that you a really overthinking this with 40 acres.

You use the term "pressure" a LOT when you refer to harvesting does.

If your GOAL (not want) is to harvest a 5.5 yr old off this property, you need to hunt/treat it like that is the goal in mind. You can't trounce hunters through it, and let your buddies hunt it like it's one of your throw away properties. If it's good and can produce deer like you dream of, use it like so.

Get an acre or 2 that is highly attractive for the opener of bow season where you would be able to monitor if their is a target buck on a summer feeding pattern. If not, don't hunt it, or let your entourage hunt there.

Invest in a couple of wireless cameras to monitor for you on the 40, with zero impact checking cameras. Huge if you lack visual barriers for bedded deer like regeneration.

Wait till the rut to put in your (or friends) hours IF a 5.5 yr old shows up on camera, but wasn't on your food source during daylight for early season.

Like Chainsaw said, put a lot of stock in winter food for overwintering, and late season. Run the wireless cams on this food source. Don't hunt it until you have one patterned. Late season patterns are gold for old bucks.

You, like us have multiple properties we can hunt. So you don't "have" to hunt there to get in a tree. These wireless cams have been a game changer for us, not needing to pressure a small woodlot until we have a situation that meets our GOAL. Then strike. Every hunt on that 40 before a 5.5 is killable on it is a negative affect on your GOAL.

The people that kill whoppers every year on small properties, are SO disciplined in their approach its crazy. I'm not there, but hunting less, and smarter has been HUGE for my hunting partners and I since we started running wireless cams a few years ago on small properties. The live feed information is extremely valuable. Don't waste sits.

Best thing that happened for our mature buck encounters...we all had kids. We don't have time to hunt all the time anymore. Better pick and choose your days wisely

I am thinking exactly the same. Backing out on inviting guests and plan to burn some quality days sitting this parcel. The wireless camera is a great idea

 

[Bullwinkle]

I'm confused or dumb. 42 deer . If that is even half the total in a sq mile/640 ac, then even conservatively that is dsm of 150+. If 5 yo bucks are common under this system, then none of us should be shooting any does and let our population explode. I know that is prime ag land, but I can't fathom 150 class bucks in poor browse management being common. Can't wait for the predator to track down this area and then the fun begins. Maybe I need to rethink population control if this is all true.

We had bigger bucks on the 40 acres than my main farm which is much better under control. Two years running. We all are planting significant food plots and there is significant Ag land helping prop up the population. Took a 160lb doe on the 40

Just think on this 40 we shot 6 does. We harvested does at a 96 doe per square mile rate!!!

 

[Chainsaw]

You are welcome Bullwinkle. I figured you were off on another great adventure. Congratulations on that Hog. Being up close while on the ground is very exciting.

So if it turns out that the neighborhood doesn't want to manage the herd to the fullest then there is no question you know how to best implement the other option. Property surveillance from off site and picking the right time as explained by Big Eight is good stuff for sure either way. I am no where near being wireless myself and though I check cameras during non-peak movement periods pictures are sometimes taken of deer running off upon my entry; presumably there are a lot more being pushed off than the camera shows.

In either case I would still have extra cameras set up at likely trespasser entry points; the drop in hunting pressure on that 40 will likely be noticed by more than the deer.

Taking six does on 40 acres could be a lot of pressure but then again if the does are accustomed to feeding in a small <1/2 acre BFO plot all season without being bothered, taking all six does from that same plot in one day very near the seasons end is not.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Makes sense to me

I think I am going to tone down the guests and hunt it myself more

Switch to ultra low pressure. Getting more cell cameras located at key spots is a great idea

No does till after our gun season will keep pressure low. The thought I can control this high doe population is done unless the neighbors get on board. Eventually you’d think the farmer would get crop damage tags - that would be the best outcome

Heading to Arkansas tomorrow Chainsaw. Flooded timber ducks, speckled belly, snows and hunting hogs with dogs/knives for 4 days. Word from Arkansas is there are good population of birds. I’m vibrating at a pretty high frequency right now. My last hunt of season.

 

[Baker]

Duck hunting has been strong where there is water. Think you will have a blast! Where in Ar.?

As for you situation in Wi....have you considered selling all your property in Wi. and buying a contiguous piece somewhere that you can actually manage deer and habitat...and grow better, healthier deer in the process?