The perfect blood tracking law?

Great post Brady.
Just addressing a couple of points brought up in this thread especially relating to OK: 1) this is not a statute change. That has been tried several times and never made it out of committee. This is an administration of the law which the ODWC and Wildlife Commission oversee. No part of an exception can contradict the existing statute. Thus, no weapons and leashed is a response to the existing statute-this cannot be construed as pursuing deer with dogs. Also this is why there is no "contact your representative" there is no statute change, and we have no opportunity to get it "right".
2) the reason for contacting the warden prior to tracking is to control how the tracking is done (leashed,etc) as it is indeed not currently in writing, but in no way is the warden approving something that is against the statute. The written exception is more to clarify.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but your statement isn't logical....

According to the wildlife department website, this is a proposed "amendment" to the existing rule.

"(i) Dogs may be used in taking all game species in these rules except bear, deer, elk, antelope and turkey. Exceptions to this rule would be the use of a leashed dog to track downed game after obtaining game warden permission and having no means of take on person while tracking. Use of an unleashed dog to track is prohibited."

The bolded portion is the proposed amendment.

If using dogs to track deer is not against the current rule or statute, then why would there need to be an exception approved by the wildlife commission?? An exception to what?? If it's not illegal (against the statute), then there would be no need for an exception, right??

If it's not against the statute or regulation, why would you need the game warden's permission to do it??

If it was just a clarification of existing rule or regulation, you wouldn't need the wildlife commission to approve it, would you??

Seems to me if this was just a clarification of the existing rule, the wildlife department could simply release a statement to that effect and/or include a note about it in the wildlife regs. There would be no need for wildlife commission approval or public input or hearings etc.

Isn't a new exception to a statute, regulation or rule, where one did not exist before, not a clarification, but, instead, a change to that statute, regulation or rule?
 
I would
I'm not saying you are wrong, but your statement isn't logical....

According to the wildlife department website, this is a proposed "amendment" to the existing rule.

"(i) Dogs may be used in taking all game species in these rules except bear, deer, elk, antelope and turkey. Exceptions to this rule would be the use of a leashed dog to track downed game after obtaining game warden permission and having no means of take on person while tracking. Use of an unleashed dog to track is prohibited."

The bolded portion is the proposed amendment.

If using dogs to track deer is not against the current rule or statute, then why would there need to be an exception approved by the wildlife commission?? An exception to what?? If it's not illegal (against the statute), then there would be no need for an exception, right??

If it's not against the statute or regulation, why would you need the game warden's permission to do it??

If it was just a clarification of existing rule or regulation, you wouldn't need the wildlife commission to approve it, would you??

Seems to me if this was just a clarification of the existing rule, the wildlife department could simply release a statement to that effect and/or include a note about it in the wildlife regs. There would be no need for wildlife commission approval or public input or hearings etc.

Isn't a new exception to a statute, regulation or rule, where one did not exist before, not a clarification, but, instead, a change to that statute, regulation or rule?
So where do you stand, for or against using dogs to recover wounded deer?
 
As I've said many times, I'm for it.

I think you may be the one who posted that it was legal to use tracking dogs in Oklahoma this year with game warden's permission?? If so, can you point me to the source of that info??
 
backnwhack

How many deer have you tracked in OK this fall? I was thinking you had gotten many green lights from the game warden.

I do hope your state improves the tracking situation because I believe many deer will be found that otherwise would go to waste. Thanks for your contributions to this topic. ;)
 
Let's not continue to argue about what is or isn't a statute in Oklahoma. That gets us nowhere, and is why I moved my thoughts to a separate thread. My hope for this thread was to have some open discussion about the merits of specific aspects of a well thought out tracking law. It is helpful to get various views on the subject. Swat's post was a good example of a potential concern I hadn't considered. Let's keep it to respectful and helpful discussion rather than arguing about semantics.
 
backnwhack

How many deer have you tracked in OK this fall? I was thinking you had gotten many green lights from the game warden.

I do hope your state improves the tracking situation because I believe many deer will be found that otherwise would go to waste. Thanks for your contributions to this topic. ;)
We have been on 19 tracks in 6 different counties, dealing with 5 different wardens. We are strictly leashed and no weapons. All wardens have been totally supportive. I agree with the doctor, my apologies, back to topic.
 
I'm not the person who posted that tracking is legal this year, I'm trying to find out the source of the info. I didn't ask if it was true, I asked where the info came from since I have seen or heard nothing about it anywhere but this forum. Contacting my warden to ask where the person that posted the statement got his info would be silly. How would my warden know where that person got his info?

The part of your post that isn't logical.......you don't need hearings, public input or approval if you aren't changing something.

Creating an amendment or exception to a statute is a change to that statute....a clarification of a statute is not a change, it is an explanation......You wouldn't need hearings and Wildlife Commission approval if it wasn't a change.


From the ODWC website:

TITLE 800. DEPARTMENT OF WILDLIFE CONSERVATION CHAPTER 25. WILDLIFE RULES

RULEMAKING ACTION:

Notice of proposed PERMANENT rulemaking

PROPOSED RULES:

Chapter 25. Wildlife Rules [AMENDED]

SUMMARY:

The proposed rule amendments are to adjust regulations on several Corps of Engineers properties around Lake Texoma for safety, clarification of acres and to add hunter opportunity. Allow deer hunters the use of a leashed tracking dog to help locate wounded deer.

Notice the underlined sentence........if the purposed amendment would "Allow deer hunters the use of a leashed tracking dog to help locate wounded deer" if approved, common sense would tell us that, unless amended, the current statute does NOT allow the use of leashed tracking dogs to help locate wounded deer. This being the case, this amendment is, indeed, a change to current regulation and not just a clarification.
 
We have been on 19 tracks in 6 different counties, dealing with 5 different wardens. We are strictly leashed and no weapons. All wardens have been totally supportive. I agree with the doctor, my apologies, back to topic.

Thanks backnwhack for the factual reply.

You had a good year for sure. ;)
 
Doc

I think it's important that we don't spread or repeat misinformation and I think that is being done here with regards to the Oklahoma law.

To get back to your intent:

As a general question, what is the purpose of any regulation on tracking wounded deer with dogs and does it really need to be regulated??

What are the potential problems if tracking is totally unregulated??

If we can figure out the potential problems, then we can determine what regulations are needed to prevent those problems.
 
Doc

To get back to your intent:

As a general question, what is the purpose of any regulation on tracking wounded deer with dogs and does it really need to be regulated??

What are the potential problems if tracking is totally unregulated??

If we can figure out the potential problems, then we can determine what regulations are needed to prevent those problems.

Like most laws, the intent is to keep folks honest. Also, like most laws they regulate guys who would generally be honest anyway, and do little to keep lawbreakers in line. Having some general framework for the legal HARVEST of game is obviously important to protect the resource. Those laws already exist. I don't think making new laws specifically directed at deer recovery is as necessary. For example, if you take a deer during bow only season, then it can't be dispatched with a rifle; trespassing remains illegal whether your are hunting or tracking; deer cannot be harvested with the use of a light; etc.
The most important reason to make specific blood tracking laws, in my opinion, is to appease those who are fearful of the use of dogs during deer season. Oddly, those same folks don't make much noise about running rabbits, coyotes, coons, or squirrels with dogs during the deer season, all off lead I might add. The other reason to make specific laws regarding blood tracking is to carve out some safety exceptions for the tracker, namely the legal carry of a firearm during the recovery of any deer wholly for the purpose of dispatching mortally wounded or severely disabled game, and for the immediate protection of the tracking party.
The number one fear of the opponents to blood tracking with dogs is the running of healthy deer with dogs, and the fear of poachers using tracking as an excuse for running game with dogs. Again, here are my arguments against that concern.
1. In many states like my own, people can allow there dogs to freely chase game year round without consequence already. As my local warden explained to me, even with video evidence there is no way to prove that the guy isn't just letting his dog run loose for the exercise. It only becomes a crime if you shoot a deer being pushed by one of those dogs. Dogs cannot be charged with trespassing in my state, nor can their owners be held accountable. There is no recourse in my state for this type of inconsiderate, neglectful behavior. In some states dogs can be dispatched for chasing game, but that is a tough recourse to take when it is the owner at fault, not the dog. In those states, I can't imagine someone turning their highly valuable tracking dog loose to suffer the consequence. In states like mine, why turn a dog out with a leash on when he an just run free without recourse anyway? There is absolutely no advantage to using tracking as the excuse for having a dog out running deer.
2. In that same light, people are already allowed to chase other game with their dogs. Again, why would you add a leash that may tangle to the mix as opposed to saying that you were chasing squirrels, or raccoons if it is at night?
3. If the law states that a tracking dog must be under the control of the handler at all times during a track, why would a poacher subject themselves to a ticket for having a leashed dog running around chasing deer when they can get away with an unleashed dog "going on a walk."
That argument just doesn't stand to reason for me.
 
Like most laws, the intent is to keep folks honest. Also, like most laws they regulate guys who would generally be honest anyway, and do little to keep lawbreakers in line. Having some general framework for the legal HARVEST of game is obviously important to protect the resource. Those laws already exist. I don't think making new laws specifically directed at deer recovery is as necessary. For example, if you take a deer during bow only season, then it can't be dispatched with a rifle; trespassing remains illegal whether your are hunting or tracking; deer cannot be harvested with the use of a light; etc.
The most important reason to make specific blood tracking laws, in my opinion, is to appease those who are fearful of the use of dogs during deer season. Oddly, those same folks don't make much noise about running rabbits, coyotes, coons, or squirrels with dogs during the deer season, all off lead I might add. The other reason to make specific laws regarding blood tracking is to carve out some safety exceptions for the tracker, namely the legal carry of a firearm during the recovery of any deer wholly for the purpose of dispatching mortally wounded or severely disabled game, and for the immediate protection of the tracking party.
The number one fear of the opponents to blood tracking with dogs is the running of healthy deer with dogs, and the fear of poachers using tracking as an excuse for running game with dogs. Again, here are my arguments against that concern.
1. In many states like my own, people can allow there dogs to freely chase game year round without consequence already. As my local warden explained to me, even with video evidence there is no way to prove that the guy isn't just letting his dog run loose for the exercise. It only becomes a crime if you shoot a deer being pushed by one of those dogs. Dogs cannot be charged with trespassing in my state, nor can their owners be held accountable. There is no recourse in my state for this type of inconsiderate, neglectful behavior. In some states dogs can be dispatched for chasing game, but that is a tough recourse to take when it is the owner at fault, not the dog. In those states, I can't imagine someone turning their highly valuable tracking dog loose to suffer the consequence. In states like mine, why turn a dog out with a leash on when he an just run free without recourse anyway? There is absolutely no advantage to using tracking as the excuse for having a dog out running deer.
2. In that same light, people are already allowed to chase other game with their dogs. Again, why would you add a leash that may tangle to the mix as opposed to saying that you were chasing squirrels, or raccoons if it is at night?
3. If the law states that a tracking dog must be under the control of the handler at all times during a track, why would a poacher subject themselves to a ticket for having a leashed dog running around chasing deer when they can get away with an unleashed dog "going on a walk."
That argument just doesn't stand to reason for me.
Exactly - I have more dogs running our place than I have ever dealt with in my life. What we have is typically folks that move to the sticks think they need 2 or 3 big old dogs just roaming free because they live in the country so they pick these "pound" dogs up and bring them home. They do nothing for the dog other than some food and water and whatever the dog decides to do that day it does...unfortunately most of the dogs they get aren't about laying on the porch taking siestas. They are all about the chase so for 7 evening hunts in a row and 2 morning hunts early this fall were all complete losses due to dogs running deer.

Right now I don't think any dogs are running deer because either the owners smartened up (doubtful) or the dogs ran into someone on a deer stand while they were running a deer. I would like to add that I am not that person because my plan was to catch them and take them to the pound 2 towns away if they had no collar and if they did have one to take them home to talk to the owner about. I am planning on doing some coyote sets this year and hope to not have a howling dog in any of them this winter :(
 
Thanks for the insight Doc.......that is a pretty persuasive explanation as to why tracking dogs should be legal.

I had never thought about the question of how to dispatch a deer during bow season!

Do most states allow the tracker to carry a firearm?

Do most states allow the tracker to dispatch the deer??

Do you know of any states that allow the use of firearms to dispatch deer during archery season??
 
I'm going to say roughly half of states allow a weapon to be carried by the tracker, and most of those allow firearms to be carried by the tracker during bow season, and allow the tracker to dispatch deer.
The trend with most of the newer states passing legislation is to restrict weapons carry, which I think is a bad trend that will lead to serious injuries over time.
 
In NY we're allowed to carry a firearm during bow season. During legal hunting hours, it's preferred the hunter dispatches a wounded animal and is only allowed to carry whatever weapon is in season at the time.
I personally wouldn't allow Luna to work off lead even if it was legal. We have a huge coyote problem here and she would not last long.
Here's a link to an interesting article written by John Jeanneney regarding legalization of tracking dogs in NY.
https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/problems of legalizing tracking dogs.pdf?token=AWzbIS_6Cxb_ezEf_c1Qk2lGl6r3DpkpOZdJ8XTSFmYuBXVqkr2h42pcvSGPyalmG0Fn3pexxNKc9ph-0G-jsOqLGbZ_C4xZwxzivaerOIpwYL8Ijp1m0l2q3OMkMqt-e6-yxhIgUdycnLcqihwc4tQMV_lF5xbtotzBNqJK14lzIA
 
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