The Forbidden Apple Tree Knowledge Thread

[Native Hunter]

Wished I'd read this a tad closer. I had mine tied down with a little added dirt, but not a foot.
A storm last week wrecked havoc on my b118 trees.
I believe I can save them using your method of more dirt.
I've stood up and tied down all but this one. I'll need one of my helpers for it.

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Merle, yes I think you can save it. Best of luck, and let us know how it turns out.

 

[Native Hunter]

Just a thought as a ride down some country roads, but fence row apples seem to be solid trees.

Many are large, heavy producers that are never pruned or sprayed. They are also tasty- I pull over to pick some all the time in the Fall.

It makes me wonder if heritage apple seeds grow great trees.

(It’s also worth noting that we don’t get fireblight this far North)


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Yes, the north has many advantages when it comes to apples, and many wild apples are excellent. One thing, however, that you get from grafted varieties is known qualities and known drop times. Mr. @chansaw on this forum has 6,000 or more wild apple trees if I remember correctly, and they do an excellent job for him. But, he is also planting many grafted varieties.

PS - I would love to see a wild apple tree, but I've never seen one to my knowledge in my life. That kind of thing doesn't happen much in my parts.

 

[Merle Hawggard]

Will do. Its not wilting, the problem I'll have is this is the tree I grafted a seedling crab to after the voles gnawed the base.
The b118 base practically snapped while the crab rootstock is fine.
I'll pull the apples to lighten the load then with Chuck's help and a John Deere attempt to stand it up, stabilize, and tie down.

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[Merle Hawggard]

She is standing again. I'll swap out the ratchet straps for wire cable next week. Going to run that through old water hose where it meets the tree.
Pics don't show, but we spread a 5055 bucket full of dirt around it too.
I'll build more bluebird houses for the posts this winter making them extra useful.

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[Merle Hawggard]

I should add this is the tree I made a side graft on with a crab rootstock after it was almost completely girdled.
The b118 is directly under the tree.

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[Native Hunter]

I should add this is the tree I made a side graft on with a crab rootstock after it was almost completely girdled.
The b118 is directly under the tree.

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Nice work Merle.

 

[Native Hunter]

Bumping this thread to the top for someone who is asking how save their B118 trees that are falling over. See Post # 78.

 

[Native Hunter]

I have some important advice for anyone who is planting apple and pear trees - Take Frost Pockets into consideration. Frost Pockets occur at low ground where cold air can fall and settle. Remember - warmer air rises and colder air falls. Many years, just a degree or two of temperature can be the difference between a bumper crop and a total failure. I'm not saying to completely avoid planting trees in low areas, but I would recommend using some restraint until you can gauge how bad the impact might be on your particular piece of ground.

Telling my own personal experience with my frost pocket at my farm is the best illustration that I can give for this subject. At one point in time, all of my trees were planted on high ground away from my low ground. However, in 2014, I decided to add a few more trees, and I planted some in the low area and some on the high ground with the other trees. Since that time the difference in fruiting has been dramatic. Shown below are some bullet points with the most important facts:

• In the low ground area, The pear trees I planted in 2014 have never been able to produce. Last year one of the trees had 4 or 5 pears on it, and that is the only pears I've ever seen down there. However, the pears on the high ground started producing 4 years after they were planted, and have been doing great ever since then. The two groups of trees are only 300 yards apart, and the only difference is the elevation.
• Even though the pear trees in the low area haven't been able to produce, they have grown big. They are much larger than the trees that have been producing. That make perfect sense, because if you aren't making fruit, you have more energy to devote to vegetative growth.
• The apples and crabapples in the low area have been able to produce some, but they have not been as productive as the trees on the high ground. It looks like that could possibly change this year. They are loaded with blooms, and unless we have an unusual late freeze, they look to be on par with the high ground trees this year.
• This year, the pear tree blooms in the low area have already been frozen out again. They are already black and falling off the trees. The high ground pears, however, look great and have a fine fruit set.
• Persimmons and Sawtooths are not affected by the frost pocket. In the last 10 years, I have only seen one bad crop with those species. That was a year when we had a very unusual late freeze in May.

I just wanted to pass this information along and hope that it might help others. PS - unless we have an unusual late freeze, it looks like 2022 could be the best apple and pear crop I have seen in my life. Take care. and good growing.

 

[KSQ2]

I have some important advice for anyone who is planting apple and pear trees - Take Frost Pockets into consideration. Frost Pockets occur at low ground where cold air can fall and settle. Remember - warmer air rises and colder air falls. Many years, just a degree or two of temperature can be the difference between a bumper crop and a total failure. I'm not saying to completely avoid planting trees in low areas, but I would recommend using some restraint until you can gauge how bad the impact might be on your particular piece of ground.

Telling my own personal experience with my frost pocket at my farm is the best illustration that I can give for this subject. At one point in time, all of my trees were planted on high ground away from my low ground. However, in 2014, I decided to add a few more trees, and I planted some in the low area and some on the high ground with the other trees. Since that time the difference in fruiting has been dramatic. Shown below are some bullet points with the most important facts:

• In the low ground area, The pear trees I planted in 2014 have never been able to produce. Last year one of the trees had 4 or 5 pears on it, and that is the only pears I've ever seen down there. However, the pears on the high ground started producing 4 years after they were planted, and have been doing great ever since then. The two groups of trees are only 300 yards apart, and the only difference is the elevation.
• Even though the pear trees in the low area haven't been able to produce, they have grown big. They are much larger than the trees that have been producing. That make perfect sense, because if you aren't making fruit, you have more energy to devote to vegetative growth.
• The apples and crabapples in the low area have been able to produce some, but they have not been as productive as the trees on the high ground. It looks like that could possibly change this year. They are loaded with blooms, and unless we have an unusual late freeze, they look to be on par with the high ground trees this year.
• This year, the pear tree blooms in the low area have already been frozen out again. They are already black and falling off the trees. The high ground pears, however, look great and have a fine fruit set.
• Persimmons and Sawtooths are not affected by the frost pocket. In the last 10 years, I have only seen one bad crop with those species. That was a year when we had a very unusual late freeze in May.

I just wanted to pass this information along and hope that it might help others. PS - unless we have an unusual late freeze, it looks like 2022 could be the best apple and pear crop I have seen in my life. Take care. and good growing.

Valuable information Native, thanks! The majority of the 11 acres here at the house is low, by pure luck we managed to plant our apple and pears on some of the higher ground of our place, it’s not exactly high, but relative to the rest of our place it is. 3 years in to letting them fruit, they have done very well. All the fruit trees we’ve planted on the Massey are on substantially higher ground, on the hillside of where we hope to build one day. So we should be good to go. We’re still a few years away from any fruiting over there.

 

[Native Hunter]

Valuable information Native, thanks! The majority of the 11 acres here at the house is low, by pure luck we managed to plant our apple and pears on some of the higher ground of our place, it’s not exactly high, but relative to the rest of our place it is. 3 years in to letting them fruit, they have done very well. All the fruit trees we’ve planted on the Massey are on substantially higher ground, on the hillside of where we hope to build one day. So we should be good to go. We’re still a few years away from any fruiting over there.

That’s good to hear. Near the top of a south facing slope at my home seems to be the best place I have for apples. They really pump out the fruit. I’ve only had one issue at this location - I had a Liberty destroyed by sunscald. Other than that it had been smooth sailing. Good luck with your trees.

 

[Mennoniteman]

I had an opportunity that I couldn't resist; our local county conservation district has a tree sale every year, and this year they had Liberty and Goldrush Apples, bare root 5/8" dia. for $14. Even though I wasn't looking for more apples and Goldrush is an mostly an average choice (we have no trouble with CAR here) Liberty is a great apple variety that I didn't have yet, so I had to get a few of each. And some blueberries for good measure. Planting more fruit trees is an addiction.

 

[Native Hunter]

To illustrate what I have stated above about frost pockets, go to the following link. Once apples reach full pink, only 3 degrees of temperature makes the difference between a 10% kill and a 90% kill. Now does the frost pocket problem make sense?

Critical Temperatures for Frost Damage on Fruit Trees (usu.edu)

 

[Native Hunter]

I had an opportunity that I couldn't resist; our local county conservation district has a tree sale every year, and this year they had Liberty and Goldrush Apples, bare root 5/8" dia. for $14. Even though I wasn't looking for more apples and Goldrush is an mostly an average choice (we have no trouble with CAR here) Liberty is a great apple variety that I didn't have yet, so I had to get a few of each. And some blueberries for good measure. Planting more fruit trees is an addiction.

If you have no CAR, Goldrush is actually a good choice. Several people I know really like it as an eating apple, and it drops late. That's a good price for those trees if they are on a desirable rootstock.

 

[Mennoniteman]

To illustrate what I have stated above about frost pockets, go to the following link. Once apples reach full pink, only 3 degrees of temperature makes the difference between a 10% kill and a 90% kill. Now does the frost pocket problem make sense?

Critical Temperatures for Frost Damage on Fruit Trees (usu.edu)

That's an interesting chart, it's interesting how it's showing a very consistent temperature tolerance pattern among the different fruits, once trees are in full bloom 28 degrees is pretty much the limit, with apples being a little fragile than the other fruits.
Planting trees on a south or west slope where there is good air drainage is key, and one thing that some people can do to help this is to remove downslope obstacles such as trees and vegetation to help that air drainage. There should be at least a 60' wide opening downslope for air to move through, with experts recommending going as far as leveling out dips and humps in the ground contour below an orchard, and mowing grass as valid practices to draw cold air downslope from an orchard.

 

[Native Hunter]

That's an interesting chart, it's interesting how it's showing a very consistent temperature tolerance pattern among the different fruits, once trees are in full bloom 28 degrees is pretty much the limit, with apples being a little fragile than the other fruits.
Planting trees on a south or west slope where there is good air drainage is key, and one thing that some people can do to help this is to remove downslope obstacles such as trees and vegetation to help that air drainage. There should be at least a 60' wide opening downslope for air to move through, with experts recommending going as far as leveling out dips and humps in the ground contour below an orchard, and mowing grass as valid practices to draw cold air downslope from an orchard.

Good thoughts MM. Move the cold air out.

 

[coolbrze0]

Planting more fruit trees is an addiction.

MM you got that right!

 

[coolbrze0]

To illustrate what I have stated above about frost pockets, go to the following link. Once apples reach full pink, only 3 degrees of temperature makes the difference between a 10% kill and a 90% kill. Now does the frost pocket problem make sense?

Critical Temperatures for Frost Damage on Fruit Trees (usu.edu)

You are corrrect, it doesn't take much to go from 10-90%. I read a lot from the VT ag extension & they put out some great info! I've been planing about 20 fruit trees each year in my orchard here in the mountains & truly love it! 5 strand high tensile electric fence going in at the moment to keep bears out even though our bear #s dropped drastically the last 2 years due to mange..

 

[RGrizzzz]

I had an opportunity that I couldn't resist; our local county conservation district has a tree sale every year, and this year they had Liberty and Goldrush Apples, bare root 5/8" dia. for $14. Even though I wasn't looking for more apples and Goldrush is an mostly an average choice (we have no trouble with CAR here) Liberty is a great apple variety that I didn't have yet, so I had to get a few of each. And some blueberries for good measure. Planting more fruit trees is an addiction.

That's a great price! To bad they were pick up only.

 

[Mennoniteman]

That's a great price! To bad they were pick up only.

Yes, a great price, and to add to that, these trees had all of their total root system attached, their 1/2" trees measured 5/8" and their 5/8" trees measured 3/4", and they arrived looking like they were dug yesterday, unlike the last several orders that I received from other nurseries. It's interesting that the County Conservation District can get nice stock like this, and always seems to have nicer trees than the mail order nurseries. It shows that great customer service is still possible. I will be posting some pics of these once they leaf out.

 

[coolbrze0]

Yes, a great price, and to add to that, these trees had all of their total root system attached, their 1/2" trees measured 5/8" and their 5/8" trees measured 3/4", and they arrived looking like they were dug yesterday, unlike the last several orders that I received from other nurseries. It's interesting that the County Conservation District can get nice stock like this, and always seems to have nicer trees than the mail order nurseries. It shows that great customer service is still possible. I will be posting some pics of these once they leaf out.

That's awesome, I would have grabbed a bunch also! Had piss poor luck w/ my purchase last year, I went w/ The Wildlife Group & while the majority of the trees were OK, many were very thin & a lot of them had almost no roots on them. I've purchased from 5? places over the years & by far that was the worst experience. They said they would make it right last year after 5 out of 20 didn't leaf our but it's like pulling teeth to get them to reply now. Will NEVER purchase from TWG again! I lost more of their 20 trees than I've lost out of the entire 130 or so that I have from prev orders!