SHOULD GAME CAMERAS BE ALLOWED FOR HUNTING?

[yoderjac]

I don't think shooting deer in the dark is legal in any US state?

Not for hunting that I know of. In high deer density area some of the population control methods have been to hire sharpshooters that kill deer at night and over bait.

The point of the question may have been to differentiate between ethics and laws. To my way of thinking, Ethics is doing the "right" thing. While obeying the law is one consideration, there are others. In most cases, ethics prevents us from (or causes us to) take some action before it becomes a legal decision. For example, "I won't take that shot because it is too long for my shooting skill to have a good chance of recovery. " In general, it is ethical to obey the law, but now always. One example I use in class is someone without a buck tag is bowhunting in the suburbs. A young buck comes by with an arrow sticking out of its butt, has a broken front leg and clearly has an infection. That deer will likely live for a few days but most likely not much longer. What do you do?

Harvest it and say nothing

Harvest it and turn your self in to the game warden

Let the deer walk knowing there is a good chance non-hunters will see it and give hunting a bad name and it will die in someone's back yard.

I personally find the first choice unethical and illegal. I find the second option ethical, but illegal. I find the third option legal but not ethical.

However, we all have to define our own ethics, so others may have a different view on the ethics of each of these choices.

 

[Drycreek]

Not for hunting that I know of. In high deer density area some of the population control methods have been to hire sharpshooters that kill deer at night and over bait.

The point of the question may have been to differentiate between ethics and laws. To my way of thinking, Ethics is doing the "right" thing. While obeying the law is one consideration, there are others. In most cases, ethics prevents us from (or causes us to) take some action before it becomes a legal decision. For example, "I won't take that shot because it is too long for my shooting skill to have a good chance of recovery. " In general, it is ethical to obey the law, but now always. One example I use in class is someone without a buck tag is bowhunting in the suburbs. A young buck comes by with an arrow sticking out of its butt, has a broken front leg and clearly has an infection. That deer will likely live for a few days but most likely not much longer. What do you do?

Harvest it and say nothing

Harvest it and turn your self in to the game warden

Let the deer walk knowing there is a good chance non-hunters will see it and give hunting a bad name and it will die in someone's back yard.

I personally find the first choice unethical and illegal. I find the second option ethical, but illegal. I find the third option legal but not ethical.

However, we all have to define our own ethics, so others may have a different view on the ethics of each of these choices.

That’s a lose-lose situation Jack, I hope I never have to face those choices.

Another scenario that I hoped to never face was a real one on the property that I used to own. I had pictures almost every day of 5 to 7 bucks in my big clover plot in a creek bottom. The oldest buck by a few years was a “high and tight” six point. He was obviously post mature and IMO the reason for that was that he would easily NOT make the 13” inside measurement to be a legal buck. In my opinion this is a waste, but the state never asked for my opinion (or anyone else’s for that matter) on this subject. I never saw him while hunting and that was good, because again, IMO, this would have posed the ethical/illegal question. I think it would be ethical to kill that buck, but it definitely would have been illegal. I know what my decision would have been, but I would have hated to let that buck walk. After all, the state implemented that rule to let the herd get a little more age on it and I personally think that it has been 90% successful. It’s that 10% that bites you in the butt !

 

[yoderjac]

That’s a lose-lose situation Jack, I hope I never have to face those choices.

Another scenario that I hoped to never face was a real one on the property that I used to own. I had pictures almost every day of 5 to 7 bucks in my big clover plot in a creek bottom. The oldest buck by a few years was a “high and tight” six point. He was obviously post mature and IMO the reason for that was that he would easily NOT make the 13” inside measurement to be a legal buck. In my opinion this is a waste, but the state never asked for my opinion (or anyone else’s for that matter) on this subject. I never saw him while hunting and that was good, because again, IMO, this would have posed the ethical/illegal question. I think it would be ethical to kill that buck, but it definitely would have been illegal. I know what my decision would have been, but I would have hated to let that buck walk. After all, the state implemented that rule to let the herd get a little more age on it and I personally think that it has been 90% successful. It’s that 10% that bites you in the butt !

I don't see much dilemma with this one. It would not rise to an ethical question for me since it was illegal and there was no reason I could see to harvest the buck.

There is no antler restriction in our state, but we have a quasi-rule on our farm that experienced hunters pass on young bucks. Mistakes are made. We target 3 1/2 and older bucks. We allow new hunters and kids to shoot any deer. When hunting on the farm, I pass many bucks like the one you describe that may or may not meet our requirement. Judging age from rack and body size is always a judgement. Since all our harvests are jawbone aged, we know when we make a mistake.

 

[Drycreek]

Contrary to popular opinion, jawbone aging is not an exact science, especially with the human element involved. What one guy sees, another doesn’t. Another variable is the type of soil you have, as a lot of what a deer eats is close to the ground and they pick up a little grit with each bite. I think I can put deer in a few categories from a good look on the hoof. Young, pre-mature, mature, and post-mature. Mature being five years old. That’s as close as most hunters need to get and can be had from a few pics or a good look in person.

The dilemma, in my mind, is a buck that dies of old age is a waste of meat, which is the biggest reason I pull the trigger.

 

[suburbhunter]

Yes

 

[yoderjac]

Contrary to popular opinion, jawbone aging is not an exact science, especially with the human element involved. What one guy sees, another doesn’t. Another variable is the type of soil you have, as a lot of what a deer eats is close to the ground and they pick up a little grit with each bite. I think I can put deer in a few categories from a good look on the hoof. Young, pre-mature, mature, and post-mature. Mature being five years old. That’s as close as most hunters need to get and can be had from a few pics or a good look in person.

The dilemma, in my mind, is a buck that dies of old age is a waste of meat, which is the biggest reason I pull the trigger.

In my case the jawbone reading accuracy is not an issue. When you look into the details, you find that because it is based on tooth wear and different soils cause different wear, you need a reader with experience in your area. That is the case with our biologist. When you look at the accuracy studies, they are a function of age. They had a bunch of jawbone readers read the same jawbones independently and record the age estimates of deer with known ages. The accuracy and deviation between readers was pretty tight up through 3 1/2 year old deer. When you get beyond 3 1/2, accuracy drops off and the deviation between readers increases. Since our objective is 3 1/2+, we only need accuracy to 3 1/2.

As for your dilemma, the way I look at it is this. deer an other animals die of all kinds of causes including old age. The carcass just goes back into the nutrient cycle and is not really wasted. It is meat that you or I don't get, but other animals do.

Having said that, we all have to draw our own ethical lines. For me, there is not enough cause in your example for me to break the law.

 

[Drycreek]

In my case the jawbone reading accuracy is not an issue. When you look into the details, you find that because it is based on tooth wear and different soils cause different wear, you need a reader with experience in your area. That is the case with our biologist. When you look at the accuracy studies, they are a function of age. They had a bunch of jawbone readers read the same jawbones independently and record the age estimates of deer with known ages. The accuracy and deviation between readers was pretty tight up through 3 1/2 year old deer. When you get beyond 3 1/2, accuracy drops off and the deviation between readers increases. Since our objective is 3 1/2+, we only need accuracy to 3 1/2.

As for your dilemma, the way I look at it is this. deer an other animals die of all kinds of causes including old age. The carcass just goes back into the nutrient cycle and is not really wasted. It is meat that you or I don't get, but other animals do.

Having said that, we all have to draw our own ethical lines. For me, there is not enough cause in your example for me to break the law.

There wasn’t for me either, so I didn’t have to watch that buck in the flesh. It was easy not to kill his picture !

 

[JohnL48]

We live in a country where our rights are constantly in jeopardy, ban ban ban. I have over 10 trail cameras out both private and public. I've hunted since Oct 1 and seen 3 deer from my stand all season. All these things do is frustrate the hell out of me. When I'm in one spot the deer show up at another stand. If you like them you should be allowed to use them, if not don't t use them. Pretty simple

 

[yoderjac]

We live in a country where our rights are constantly in jeopardy, ban ban ban. I have over 10 trail cameras out both private and public. I've hunted since Oct 1 and seen 3 deer from my stand all season. All these things do is frustrate the hell out of me. When I'm in one spot the deer show up at another stand. If you like them you should be allowed to use them, if not don't t use them. Pretty simple

That is a great example of how game cameras can educate us as hunters. When deer always show up on cameras in locations other than where we are hunting, it tells us something that should make us examine our approach.

I have game cams at the farm that run 24/7/365 unattended. There are years when our hunters say "Our deer numbers are really down this year" based on their field observations. The cameras usually tell a very different story when I look at longitudinal year on year data. After I went to true black flash with dual lenses so there is no noise or visible flash, I've really learned a lot about deer behavior and their ability to avoid humans.

 

[LetThemGrow]

To night hunt for hogs, which is what we were doing, yes. To shoot a deer, hell no ! It wasn’t even deer season, but it’s not legal to night hunt deer under any circumstances. That doesn’t keep some folks from doing it, just the law abiding ones.

So if it was illegal, how was it an “ethical decision”? Seems to me it was a legal decision?

 

[Drycreek]

So if it was illegal, how was it an “ethical decision”? Seems to me it was a legal decision?

Ethics has nothing to do with legality. Ethics is when you do the right thing when no one is looking. I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you.

 

[catscratch]

I imagine Drycreek was in a situation where he could have done it with zero concern about getting caught. In that scenario it was an ethical choice more than a legal choice.

 

[Drycreek]

I imagine Drycreek was in a situation where he could have done it with zero concern about getting caught. In that scenario it was an ethical choice more than a legal choice.

Exactly cat !

 

[yoderjac]

Yep, ethical and legal choices are different ways we justify our actions or inactions, but there is a lot of overlap. We have legal and ethical, illegal and ethical, legal and unethical, and illegal and unethical. It is not always one or the other.

 

[260 Shooter]

Just within the last 4 years a buddy and I have been using them on his property, we have seen some nice bucks on them but oddly enough during gun season these bucks disappear, being we are in the middle of oazrk farm land there is no telling where they will show up. With that the only advantage I see with them is that we know they are out there but doesn’t guarantee anything.