Please help save this clover plot (w/ pics)!

[nybhh]

Hi all, I used to spend a lot of time on the QDMA forums but haven't really found a landing place since they closed. I noticed a few familiar avatar's around so I decided to sign up.

I'll cut to the chase. I planted this 3/4 acre plot in Durana in Fall of 2015. It was planted in Winter Rye the year before that and cleared from woods the year before that. Last year, due to some unforeseen life events we all have from time to time, this plot got zero attention, no mowing, sprays, inputs, etc.

The main issues are, among a plethora of other weeds, a Japanese stilt-grass invasion as this lies alongside a creek, the clover leaves have all stated turning RED! These photos were taken yesterday.

The photo colors are a little weird here but there is a definite red tint to the entire plot.

Soils report from 2015: pH 6.2, Amended per recommendations.

Soils report from 2014: pH 4.8 ,Amended per recommendations.

The plot is huntable this fall as-is but the stilt-grass is super aggressive and will take over so I need to get a jump on that as well as clearing up some of the other weeds and figuring out what is leading to the red leaves. I have Cleth, Gly and 24db but I'm not sure what's going to be the best to knock down this stilt-grass or if Cleth or 24db will even work on it. I know Gly does. Anyone know what's causing the red leaves? Any google search for "red", "leaves", "clover" just ends up discussing red clover although I have seen reference to a possible Boron deficiency. Both test had B at 0.4 ppm but I don't know what that should be. My P is low as well but OM is pretty high so that should free up additional P over time no?

Thanks for any help.

 

[Charleston Treeman]

Magnesium and boron deficiencies can both give reddish tinge to foliage. Remember soil can have adequate nutrients present but if the pH isn't optimal then the plants can't take it up.

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[Charleston Treeman]

Helpful chart for ya.

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[nybhh]

Hey CTreeman, thanks for the response and posting the chart. 2 years ago, my pH was 6.2 up from 4.8 the previous year. That is a huge jump which can be attributed to several tons of pelletized lime applied in late 14, early 15 and it should have still been climbing as the application rates were targeting 7.0 and I'd guess I'm between 6.8 and 7.0 at the moment. My magnesium levels are also through the roof at 238 ppm but Boron is only 0.4 ppm. That could very well be the problem, I'm just not sure what the application rates should be or even what I'm targeting in PPM.

 

[Charleston Treeman]

Looking at the pics is does look more like boron. Magnesium gives the leaf margins a red tint. .4 is on the low end of medium. Micro nutrients are tough cause too much can be worse than not enough.

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[X-farmerdan]

Don't worry about the clover leaf turning red. I've seen this most every year for a hundred years. I could be wrong -- and its been debated to death on other forums. There's this proverb that suggests the simplest explanation is probably the right answer. The simplest answer I can think of is, the clover is going dormant -- a summer protection mode. It stops producing chlorophyll in response to heat and its effects. Its appropriate! Clover, especially white clovers are cool season plants. Best growth is spring and fall. There are secondary things going on, like aphids and thirps working on the leaves, but it's all natural. Come cooler weather you won't even remember your clover had red leaves! Like trees in the autumn.....

I didn't look at your soil samples, but if there is a deficiency, it will become pronounced as the plants shut down for a little rest.

 

[nybhh]

Looking at the pics is does look more like boron. Magnesium gives the leaf margins a red tint. .4 is on the low end of medium. Micro nutrients are tough cause too much can be worse than not enough.

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I found this...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boron_deficiency_(plant_disorder)
which states, " Although Boron requirements vary among crops, the optimum boron content of the leaves for most crops is 20-100 ppm." That certainly suggest Boron could be the culprit if I'm at 0.4, just not sure how many ounces/lbs of 20 Mule Team Borax that translates to though.

@X_farmerdan. Thank you as well and that was my original thought but we've had a very mild summer so far with plenty of rain and nothing temp-wise that should have stressed the Durana which was designed to stand up to a southern summers. We've had zero 90 degrees days yet and only a few in the mid-80s and our nights typically get down to mid-60s. I also don't remember noticing it last year either but I wasn't super tuned in. Not saying it won't bounce back and dormancy might allow an opportunity to hit the whole thing with Gly but it definitely looks outside the norm.

 

[JFH]

Hi all, I used to spend a lot of time on the QDMA forums but haven't really found a landing place since they closed. I noticed a few familiar avatar's around so I decided to sign up.

I'll cut to the chase. I planted this 3/4 acre plot in Durana in Fall of 2015. It was planted in Winter Rye the year before that and cleared from woods the year before that. Last year, due to some unforeseen life events we all have from time to time, this plot got zero attention, no mowing, sprays, inputs, etc.

The main issues are, among a plethora of other weeds, a Japanese stilt-grass invasion as this lies alongside a creek, the clover leaves have all stated turning RED! These photos were taken yesterday.

The photo colors are a little weird here but there is a definite red tint to the entire plot.

Soils report from 2015: pH 6.2, Amended per recommendations.

Soils report from 2014: pH 4.8 ,Amended per recommendations.

The plot is huntable this fall as-is but the stilt-grass is super aggressive and will take over so I need to get a jump on that as well as clearing up some of the other weeds and figuring out what is leading to the red leaves. I have Cleth, Gly and 24db but I'm not sure what's going to be the best to knock down this stilt-grass or if Cleth or 24db will even work on it. I know Gly does. Anyone know what's causing the red leaves? Any google search for "red", "leaves", "clover" just ends up discussing red clover although I have seen reference to a possible Boron deficiency. Both test had B at 0.4 ppm but I don't know what that should be. My P is low as well but OM is pretty high so that should free up additional P over time no?

Thanks for any help.

If you are in sandy soil you almost certainly have boron and sulfur deficiencies. I deal with that issue and have to add boron and sulfur (via ammonium sulfate) annually in crops for which those can be issues (e.g. alfalfa).

Google "Jerry Lindquist Osceola boron" for a nice concise article on this from a Michigan State University agronomist.

Actually, I've save you the trouble. Here's the link:

http://msue.anr.msu.edu/uploads/234/43269/alfalfa_seeding_and_fertilization_recommendations.pdf


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[MarkDarvin]

I found this...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boron_deficiency_(plant_disorder)
which states, " Although Boron requirements vary among crops, the optimum boron content of the leaves for most crops is 20-100 ppm."

Nope. 20-100 will knock that clover stone dead. Max boron ppm you want is 2. I'd try to keep it around 1.5.

I'd try some gypsum first, 1000 lbs. I think you overshot your magnesium with dolomitic lime. I wouldn't put any phosphorus or potassium on. You've got plenty to grow something. Put your money into raising your calcium and see what you get. Your boron is low, but I don't think it's limiting your plot. I've got boron where you are and mine is growing fine. I also don't know what a borax application would do to live plants. Dry seems more suited for pre-plant, and liquid for in-season.

What I'm not sure about is that aluminum number. I don't know what an optimum rate is in soil, but pH above 6 seems to be ok no matter what your aluminum is.

I'm no wonk, just what I'd try.

 

[TreeFarmer]

I have noticed the same red leaves on my Durana clover plot. I really don't recall the issue when the plot was traditional Ladino clover. But like you, when I noticed the condition I looked it up and found boron deficiency to be a possible culprit and my plot location having been woods previously, I read that the soil would most likely be low in boron.

As far as applying boron with commonly found sources, last year I mixed Borax with a maintenance application of fertilizer. Using a broadcast spreader it didn't go so well. Because its a powder a lot of it blew around as dust and a fair portion probably ended up in the woods instead of on the plot. Wear a mask and eye protection if you are going to attempt this.

This spring I applied 4 lbs of Borax and 4 lbs of Boric Acid. Dissolve it in a bucket or some container with water overnight stirring occasionally. Then I applied it to my 1 acre plot using my 3-point boomless sprayer. If not dissolved, and you just dump it in your sprayer you will most likely clog up the intake screen and burn up your pump.

Having said that, I have noticed no negative reaction when applying this amount to actively growing clover. I believe this amount is around the 1 lb of actual boron that is recommended.

 

[nybhh]

Hey guys, I wanted to thank you all for responding. Does anyone know if Cleth will work on Japanese Stiltgrass? I couldn't find mention of it on the label but I may try to hit the field with an application of Clethodim and surficant this weekend. I think I'm going to follow @TreeFarmer's lead as well and dissolve a little Borax in water and spray a small area and see if it changes anything, should make for a interesting experiment.

@MarkDarvin, good observation on the Magnesium vs Calcium. I'm not really in an AG area so I sort of have to take what I can get as far as lime goes, especially at the volume I was buying at (300 50lb bags, almost 7.5 tons). I know my local Agway has gypsum in 50lb bags so I'll order up some of that. Re: the Al, yea, now that my pH is ok, the aluminum should not be an issue but certainly was when the pH was down in the 4s.

Thanks again guys. Nice to see all that wisdom is still around!

 

[TreeFarmer]

Hey guys, I wanted to thank you all for responding. Does anyone know if Cleth will work on Japanese Stiltgrass? I couldn't find mention of it on the label but I may try to hit the field with an application of Clethodim and surficant this weekend...

Yes. Clethodim will work on Japanese Stilt Grass.

 

[dogghr]

Assuming 2014 was your last soil test, you need update soil test before second guessing phs or amendments.
Second, clovers turn colors with stress of lot of things including too much rain, too little rain, not enough sun, too much sun, too hot, too cold. I'd do soil test if needed then evaluate.
Indeed if you want to add boron just mix 4# Borax box/half ac with fert and spread, you will get adequate amount. If you want you can buy fert with Boron which is I believe is 10-15-20-.5 thus if you need 1# boron /ac you will need 200# of that fert. Good luck.

 

[nybhh]

Assuming 2014 was your last soil test, you need update soil test before second guessing phs or amendments.
Second, clovers turn colors with stress of lot of things including too much rain, too little rain, not enough sun, too much sun, too hot, too cold. I'd do soil test if needed then evaluate.
Indeed if you want to add boron just mix 4# Borax box/half ac with fert and spread, you will get adequate amount. If you want you can buy fert with Boron which is I believe is 10-15-20-.5 thus if you need 1# boron /ac you will need 200# of that fert. Good luck.

Thanks Dogghr. Hope you've been well since you last helped me at the "other site". Last test was 07/15 but yes, I'll be doing new ones this year but will treat with little boron in the mean time.

 

[dogghr]

Thanks Dogghr. Hope you've been well since you last helped me at the "other site". Last test was 07/15 but yes, I'll be doing new ones this year but will treat with little boron in the mean time.

Yep I have been doing well just still running my mouth about things I know little about. Glad to see you on here. If soil test is 2015 prob don't need one till next yr if you want to wait. You can do free one probably at one of the Universities in NY that have good ag department. With them sometimes you have to ask for OM and CEC readings in addition to basic analysis.
Edit. If you are going to spray Cleth, then you might want to add AMS. That was recommended often on the old sight and the sulfur might kick start your clover.

 

[nybhh]

Yep I have been doing well just still running my mouth about things I know little about. Glad to see you on here. If soil test is 2015 prob don't need one till next yr if you want to wait. You can do free one probably at one of the Universities in NY that have good ag department. With them sometimes you have to ask for OM and CEC readings in addition to basic analysis.
Edit. If you are going to spray Cleth, then you might want to add AMS. That was recommended often on the old sight and the sulfur might kick start your clover.

That's pretty funny, I'm certainly glad you're still 'running your mouth'. Yea, Agro-One took over the soil testing for Cornell a few years back but the input recs still come from Cornell. I just ordered 4# of Amonium Sulfate from Amazon since I have no idea where to buy it locally.
https://www.amazon.com/Hi-Yield-Amm...d=1499807291&sr=8-5&keywords=ammonium+sulfate

I'll add it to the tank, thanks!

 

[MarkDarvin]

@MarkDarvin, good observation on the Magnesium vs Calcium. I'm not really in an AG area so I sort of have to take what I can get as far as lime goes, especially at the volume I was buying at (300 50lb bags, almost 7.5 tons). I know my local Agway has gypsum in 50lb bags so I'll order up some of that. Re: the Al, yea, now that my pH is ok, the aluminum should not be an issue but certainly was when the pH was down in the 4s.

I know what you mean. I'm in an ag area, and I still can barely find the lime I'm looking for. All the big box stores and TSC carry dolomitic lime. I need coarse calcitic lime, and I've only got two places that carry it, and I have to travel 30 miles the wrong way to go get it, then haul it a long damn way to my property. It took me a long time find out which lime was which because none of these guys put anything on the bag in terms of analysis, nor do they list it on their sites.

 

[JFH]

That's pretty funny, I'm certainly glad you're still 'running your mouth'. Yea, Agro-One took over the soil testing for Cornell a few years back but the input recs still come from Cornell. I just ordered 4# of Amonium Sulfate from Amazon since I have no idea where to buy it locally.
https://www.amazon.com/Hi-Yield-Amm...d=1499807291&sr=8-5&keywords=ammonium+sulfate

I'll add it to the tank, thanks!

Make sure that is "spray grade" (powder) ammonium sulfate if it is going into your sprayer. The granular "fertilizer grade" is a very different thing.


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[JFH]

Make sure that is "spray grade" (powder) ammonium sulfate if it is going into your sprayer. The granular "fertilizer grade" is a very different thing.


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Just clicked on your link. That is almost certainly granular.

If not too late to cancel, I suggest letting it thoroughly dissolve in the sprayer tank via time, warmth and agitation.

That's a gardener product. Spray grade is usually only available from farmer co-ops, Agrium, etc.


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[dogghr]

Easy to get AMS solution from Rural King store or mail. Cheapest I've found.