Playing devils advocate

howboutthemdawgs

howboutthemdawgs

Active Member
Where do you draw the line...
With what deer hunting has become, high fence becoming more common, bait piles the size of pick up trucks, trough feeders with protein pellets, ctc hormone thrown in feed, why is night hunting “unethical”? I’m not talking about spotlighting, I’m talking about night vision technology that is now available and attainable to the average consumer. I know it’s illegal, so was baiting in Georgia since game laws were established, but enough people whined and now it’s not. At this point I’m not sure hunters couldn’t get night hunting legalized.

Let me say I have zero interest in any of the above but I was looking at some deer pics on another forum and one had a bruiser over a pile of corn at night and it made me wonder how long till night hunting is the next shoe to fall.
 
People are over irrational drawing irrelevant lines as to what they deem as fair hunting. They do it without solid data or reason to back the points up. Do what you want as long as the kill is ethical. And eat as much as you can.

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If night hunting were legal, there would be no mature bucks to speak of on any property except those within a high fence. Public land would literally have no deer on it in most places (around me). The gd things would be so spooked every second of every day of hunting season, we’d have to include Ativan in the bait piles for them to stop shaking enough to get an ethical shot.

It’s true, we totally arbitrarily define what is “ethical”, it’s completely subjective as to what the majority of people agree to, and that varies greatly depending on the region of the country.


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Assuming it became very popular, it could become very dangerous for the participants. Even it there was a way around it, I don't think there would ever be the political will, coming from multiple directions, to implement it. That's just my off the tip reactions.
 
Like x-farmerdan said, I think you are talking about something that’s never going to happen. The other things you mentioned don’t come close to giving the advantage to a hunter that hunting with night vision does. I’ve done quite a bit of night hunting for hogs and it is a distinct advantage because they feel so much safer in the dark. That said, you still have to beat their noses, and with hogs, that ain’t easy. The first couple of years deer would be a slam dunk, but they would quickly adapt and be as g squared said, as nervous as hell 24/7/365.
 
I can definitely see limited night hunting becoming legal in states where they want to kill more deer. Think cwd zones, urban areas with severe deer densities, etc. I’d even go so far as to say there is a time and place where night hunting is probably best management practice somewhere.

I think most of us on this site won’t care for it simply because we manage our herds well enough that night hunting will probably never be the best solution for our properties. And from a “hunt purity” standpoint, I’d take no more pride in shooting a deer at night than I would shooting something at a zoo.


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The line will need to be drawn on night vision equipment or it will end all ethical hunting, soon it'd be used too shoot roosting gobblers out of trees in the dark. I've used some of the latest technology and it's creepy how you can see coyote sized objects up to a half a mile in the night. In the wrong hands, like if there's ever another civil war, which doesn't seem as remote of a possibility as it once did, night vision technology could be a scary thing. My opinion is that it doesn't have a place in sport hunting, I'm ok with using it for predator control.
 
Mennoniteman said:
The line will need to be drawn on night vision equipment or it will end all ethical hunting, soon it'd be used too shoot roosting gobblers out of trees in the dark. I've used some of the latest technology and it's creepy how you can see coyote sized objects up to a half a mile in the night. In the wrong hands, like if there's ever another civil war, which doesn't seem as remote of a possibility as it once did, night vision technology could be a scary thing. My opinion is that it doesn't have a place in sport hunting, I'm ok with using it for predator control.
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The issue is it’s an arbitrary line, drawn by the individual. I feel that way about hunting a high fence or over a bait pile but many (and I mean many!) disagree. They aren’t wrong, they just have different opinions or “ethics”. Where is the states role in playing ethics manager? They seem to lift the regulations yearly so that’s why I bring up the whole night hunting notion. I don’t think it’s super far fetched.
 
howboutthemdawgs said:
The issue is it’s an arbitrary line, drawn by the individual. I feel that way about hunting a high fence or over a bait pile but many (and I mean many!) disagree. They aren’t wrong, they just have different opinions or “ethics”. Where is the states role in playing ethics manager? They seem to lift the regulations yearly so that’s why I bring up the whole night hunting notion. I don’t think it’s super far fetched.
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My opinion has always been based on the “Fair Chase” guidelines. For a game animal in recreational hunting, where does night vision or high fences fall? I understand where OP is coming from, but like others have said I doubt you will ever see a state legalize NVG hunting for a game animal. If anything, the rules will get tighter.

Being in the South where baiting has (mostly) been legal for 20yrs or more, I have a little different aspect on it. And I feel like there are regional issues as well that go long with why states have/are legalizing it.

Here in the South the deer population has been high for years compared to other areas,even with the liberal harvest.So you have state agencies still feeling the pressure from Insurance groups & farmers to get deer numbers down, as well as hunter recruitment.

The one thing a lot of people overlook IMO, is this- Mr Joe Public that got lucky & has permission to hunt or has a lease to hunt, on average only hunts weekends & the time off he schedules.

So how many hunters would continue to hunt if suddenly they couldn’t drop a 100-200lbs of corn,apples,ect in the woods? Say a pine thicket or that field edge.. Not knocking woodsmanship or calling anyone less of a hunter for that.. it simply comes down to time.

For the average hunter with other responsibilities, sure it seems really cool to think about scouting a hardwood ridge or scouting a new area of the property.. but more often than not, season opens & you are back in your same stand, sitting over your choice of bait.

Ironically I was just listening to Grant Woods talking about managing deer on a golf course with depredation permits. Shooting hours were 11pm-4am? Definitely after dark. Hard to believe NVG wasn’t used..


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Having grown up in north GA when there were NO deer, I'll go on record as saying the hunting is better here than it's ever been. Ever!!! Even the buck/doe ratio has steadily improved since the early 2000's. We are blessed to have a DNR fully aligned with the hunter in mind. After the legislators passed baiting last year in N GA to match S GA regs, I can say that I honestly could not detect any difference in hunting. We fed one feeder in a food plot all season long and while we had the occasional deer come to it during daylight, it was mostly ignored by the majority of deer that entered the plot.

As for high fence, I personally believe that is the most misunderstood management tool in the country and particularly the south. My neighbor to the east is high fence on his 1300+ acres. Those deer as just as wild as any deer in GA. It'd be like hunting a needle in a hay stack. I've toured his property a number of times and the minute a deer sees the UTV they flag and are gone, no different than on my property next door. My neighbor has no issues with trespassing and is able to manage for all age classes. And since high fencing, he doesn't have hunters stacked on his property line. Maybe a 100 acre high fence would be different, but at some point in size, high fence becomes a non issue.
 
Triple C said:
Having grown up in north GA when there were NO deer, I'll go on record as saying the hunting is better here than it's ever been. Ever!!! Even the buck/doe ratio has steadily improved since the early 2000's. We are blessed to have a DNR fully aligned with the hunter in mind. After the legislators passed baiting last year in N GA to match S GA regs, I can say that I honestly could not detect any difference in hunting. We fed one feeder in a food plot all season long and while we had the occasional deer come to it during daylight, it was mostly ignored by the majority of deer that entered the plot.

As for high fence, I personally believe that is the most misunderstood management tool in the country and particularly the south. My neighbor to the east is high fence on his 1300+ acres. Those deer as just as wild as any deer in GA. It'd be like hunting a needle in a hay stack. I've toured his property a number of times and the minute a deer sees the UTV they flag and are gone, no different than on my property next door. My neighbor has no issues with trespassing and is able to manage for all age classes. And since high fencing, he doesn't have hunters stacked on his property line. Maybe a 100 acre high fence would be different, but at some point in size, high fence becomes a non issue.
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Philosophical debate I suppose. Hell i have a friend that owns a high fence and leases another. We just disagree.
It’s a closed loop environment, not unlike a pond. Part of “hunting” is dealing with all factors, good and bad in my opinion. High fence or “Ranching” is the ability to control as many variables as possible to produce a desired outcome. The ends justify the means in that scenario.
In my world the ethics of kill matters more than the size of the antlers....and I love some big ass antlers! But I would rather see a spike killed on public land than a 250” killed where it came to a feeder in a fence.

On a total side note, how is legal to fence in the states wildlife? Maybe there is a process I’m unaware of but that seems to me like it is depriving the citizens of their resource.
 
We probably have more high fences here than any other state. I hunt next to one on one property that I hunt. I see as many deer driving down the outside of it as I do the inside, but I’ve seen a couple of really big bucks on their side. Their tolerance of me was just about the same as the deer on our side, as soon as they recognized me as a human, they boogied.

I’ll tell you what a high fence is good for IMO though. I’m not talking about a couple hundred acres, but several hundreds to thousands. You not only can manage for the numbers of deer, but you can manage for age class, you can virtually eliminate the hog problem (if you work at it), knock down the coyote population, (again, if you work at it), and make it damn hard to trespass, which is a problem for us in East Texas, although not as much as it used to be. I have no quarrel with high fences. Most high fences are built to keep deer out as well as in.

Deer breeding operations are another matter, but I’m not going there at this point.
 
howboutthemdawgs said:
Philosophical debate I suppose. Hell i have a friend that owns a high fence and leases another. We just disagree.
It’s a closed loop environment, not unlike a pond. Part of “hunting” is dealing with all factors, good and bad in my opinion. High fence or “Ranching” is the ability to control as many variables as possible to produce a desired outcome. The ends justify the means in that scenario.
In my world the ethics of kill matters more than the size of the antlers....and I love some big ass antlers! But I would rather see a spike killed on public land than a 250” killed where it came to a feeder in a fence.

On a total side note, how is legal to fence in the states wildlife? Maybe there is a process I’m unaware of but that seems to me like it is depriving the citizens of their resource.
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Don't think there's any legal issue with anyone choosing to fence their property with any type fence of their choosing but I'm not certain on that point. And as for the "high fence debate", I don't think anyone ever changes another's view. I have no desire for a high fence around my place. On 287 acres I feel like it would be cheating to some degree. But on a large tract, it's the same as hunting any deer any where in my often uninformed opinion.:D I'm good with any deer anyone chooses to kill by any legal means they choose. Personally didn't want to see the "baiting" thing come to northern zone in GA but now that it's here it pretty much seems to be a non event.
 
I may be in a unique position to offer insight and thoughts on the practical aspects of high fences as I own both high fenced property and low fenced property. In fact I own a low fenced ranch immediately adjacent to a high fenced ranch I own.

I'll start with my farm. I have lived on this 1350 acre property for over 40 years and have had full management control the entire time.My farm is immediately adjacent to my lifelong friends 1150 acre farm and we have worked together most of our life trying to maximize the wildlife potential of our properties. My goal has always been to have the finest deer property i could create and have employed year round food plots and supplemental feeding for over 30 years to accomplish this as has my buddy.

There has always been intense hunting pressure on every boundary of our property and in over 30 years of owning the property we only took 2 or 3 trophy deer with the biggest at 170. We simply couldn't get the age structure old enough on enough bucks . Out of frustration we finally built a fence around the totality of the ~ 2500+ acres about 7-8 yrs ago and without any comparison it was the best thing we ever did for our property!!! I now wish I would have done it years earlier.

Now we are able to manage the age structure of the deer, growing more bucks to full maturity and have exceeded my wildest expectations as to what the farm is capable of producing. It has become a dream come true. As for the hunting , it is as challenging as ever. To hunt a specific mature deer is totally challenging and there have been plenty that go all season without being seen even though someone is on the farm almost every day of the year. Maybe you can see them in velvet but at hardened antler disappear sometimes for a couple years.But it sure is fun being on a property where you have a chance of seeing a spectacular mature majestic whitetail buck even if it is in August . And it is fun beyond measure hunting a property that has great sex ratio, great age structure, super healthy deer and sure...the opportunity for a super star to walk by even there is no intention to shoot him. Thrilling!

Mexico: I have a relatively large low fenced ranch immediately adjacent to a 6000 acre high fenced pasture. Manage them both identically. The quality and challenge of the hunt is about the same and in many ways you simply cant tell the difference between the two pastures. But I can control population better by controlling ingress/egress on the game fenced pasture which allows me to have better control over ratio's and total population. That yields a slightly better herd on the game fenced property.

And at the end of the day that is some of the biggest advantages of game fencing.Better control of total population and the 'opportunity' to improve age structure.However , wire does not grow quality deer. It is what you do inside a game fence that makes the difference and as many properties have been ruined with a game fence as have been improved.
 
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