Logging Talk: Interdependency among native trees

MarkDarvin

MarkDarvin

Well-Known Member
When it comes to forestry knowledge, If there were a scale of 1-10, 10 being effective, I might be a 4. I've been suffering the cabin fever something awful lately, and got to wondering about something:

Plants obviously do better in big diverse blends. Trees must exhibit similar traits among a group of diverse plants as well, no? I wonder if anyone has pondered this, or knows of any tree relationships that exist that make the sum of the players better vs them being on their own.

I'm way big time north, but I'll take anything anyone has.
 
Mark, what you are talking about is called "mutualism" in biology. Mutualism is a type of symbiotic relationship where all species involved benefit from their interactions. In some cases, the species are entirely dependent on each other (obligate mutualism) and in others, they derive benefits from their relationship but could survive without each other (facultative mutualism).

You have heard of the "world wide web," but now I want you to Google the "WOOD wide web." This may not completely cure your cabin fever, but it should be something that will help and take you more than a couple of days to digest. Have fun learning about how trees talk to each other.....
 
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Native Hunter said:
Mark, what you are talking about is called "mutualism" in biology. Mutualism is a type of symbiotic relationship where all species involved benefit from their interactions. In some cases, the species are entirely dependent on each other (obligate mutualism) and in others, they derive benefits from their relationship but could survive without each other (facultative mutualism).

You have heard of the "world wide web," but now I want you to Google the "WOOD wide web." This may not completely cure your cabin fever, but it should be something that will help and take you more than a couple of days to digest. Have fun learning about how trees talk to each other.....
Click to expand...
That seems to be the same knowledge of the soil food web adapted to trees. I've clicked through a few places, but can't seem to find the depth related to trees like we have to crops, in how various things go together. Clover and rye, beans and corn, etc.

I wonder about this stuff because i do a pretty thorough job of taking down stuff around things I want to keep, and now I'm wondering if I haven't over-sanitized the landscape. Granted, I haven't killed anything, but I don't leave any undesirable standing above 5' tall.
 
MarkDarvin said:
That seems to be the same knowledge of the soil food web adapted to trees. I've clicked through a few places, but can't seem to find the depth related to trees like we have to crops, in how various things go together. Clover and rye, beans and corn, etc.

I wonder about this stuff because i do a pretty thorough job of taking down stuff around things I want to keep, and now I'm wondering if I haven't over-sanitized the landscape. Granted, I haven't killed anything, but I don't leave any undesirable standing above 5' tall.
Click to expand...

I'm a fan of Dr. Craig Harper, and I've listened to a lot of his podcast, etc. on forest management. I've never heard him mention any concerns of over-sanitizing. In fact, he basically says that there is nothing better you can do than taking a chain saw and spray bottle and killing what you don't want so that it will give what you do want more sunlight. This even includes taking out less productive oaks to give the top producers more room.

I'm in the process right now of doing a bunch of timber management and making repairs to property line fences. I'm primarily focused in the short term on killing sweetgums, and at the places I do that, there is a good flush of blackberry briers, greenbrier and serviceberries that comes in. I'm coming to realize how important greenbrier is to my deer. They browse it harder than anything else I see, and it is really resilient. It grows in areas too wet for a lot of other stuff, and it will take an amazing amount of shade. My woods must be almost perfect for it. It's like the whole woods is a greenbrier food plot.
 
Here is another thing to keep in mind regarding this subject, and it also applies to food plots and field management - deer are going to eat what they like the best and not touch what they don't like. This gives an edge to the undesirable species and helps them to dominate and expand more than the desirable species. As land managers we are leveling the playing field and reversing which species gains the advantage.
 
This is a trailer for a documentary that I believe you can watch on Amazon Prime. The documentary features the work of Suzanne Simard who wrote a book called the Mother Tree that discusses the wood wide web and how trees can communicate and benefit each other. Be warned. I read scientific papers and research all the time and found the book incredibly boring and it is one of the few books that I have not been able to finish. There are also other videos on YouTube discussing her work if you don't have access to Amazon Prime Video.

 
One way changes to woods soils is being seen is through mesophication. This has been happening for a long time. Species that are shade tolerant or opportunistic encroach into areas they historically weren't present. They change the whole area they take over into a cooler, wetter, and shadier area. By changing the soil and other environmental characteristics, they drive out species of both plants and animals from that area. Mesophication is a big contributor to oak decline.
 
One of the best ways to see what a natural forest landscape can encompass is reading the excursions of the early settlers from the East. From the precolonial eastern forests to the expansive grasslands of our plains the change has been dramatic.
Reading of those early explorations reveals a complex interconnection of plants and animals we ignore today.
I’d suggest Blackwater Chronicles as a start for good reading for such. Be forewarned that the picture of a mature landscape and the animal species/deer it supported in large numbers will go against most timber and game management of today including most practices s supported on forums such as this one.
The thread on this forum “ The Mighty Acorn” , started by some delusional crazy man ,has some summary of such an environment.
Be careful where the dark side may take you.


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dogghr said:
One of the best ways to see what a natural forest landscape can encompass is reading the excursions of the early settlers from the East. From the precolonial eastern forests to the expansive grasslands of our plains the change has been dramatic.
Reading of those early explorations reveals a complex interconnection of plants and animals we ignore today.
I’d suggest Blackwater Chronicles as a start for good reading for such. Be forewarned that the picture of a mature landscape and the animal species/deer it supported in large numbers will go against most timber and game management of today including most practices s supported on forums such as this one.
The thread on this forum “ The Mighty Acorn” , started by some delusional crazy man ,has some summary of such an environment.
Be careful where the dark side may take you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
This is strange. I just ordered this book yesterday on Amazon.
 
This isn’t exactly what you were asking for, but I’ve been waiting for an excuse to share my speculation.

A couple years back I was trying to figure out why one of my young white oaks was significantly outperforming every other white oak that I planted. The soil where said white oak is at seems worse than where I had planted every other oak.

One way or another I came up with the theory that a nearby mature white pine had something to do with it. I began researching ecological characteristics of white pines and mycorrhizal fungi that are associated with them.

I ended up finding some species of mycorrhizal fungi that colonize the roots of both white pines and white oaks. I couldn’t find anything super definitive, but it appeared that some species prefer one tree species over the other.

So my theory is that the mycorrhizal fungi that was living with the white pine for over 100 years discovered the young white oak and decided to start donating nutrients and photosynthate from the white pine, as well as water.

If my theory is true, then the presence of the ancient white pine is significantly assisting the young oak, even if it’s not doing so willingly.

To add to this- as you might know, trees of the same species have been proven to share photosynthate with each other, even when the roots aren’t grafted. Younger trees are seemingly prioritized. I don’t think it’s a stretch to think that the same happens with trees of different species.


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Chipdasqrrl said:
This isn’t exactly what you were asking for, but I’ve been waiting for an excuse to share my speculation.

A couple years back I was trying to figure out why one of my young white oaks was significantly outperforming every other white oak that I planted. The soil where said white oak is at seems worse than where I had planted every other oak.

One way or another I came up with the theory that a nearby mature white pine had something to do with it. I began researching ecological characteristics of white pines and mycorrhizal fungi that are associated with them.

I ended up finding some species of mycorrhizal fungi that colonize the roots of both white pines and white oaks. I couldn’t find anything super definitive, but it appeared that some species prefer one tree species over the other.

So my theory is that the mycorrhizal fungi that was living with the white pine for over 100 years discovered the young white oak and decided to start donating nutrients and photosynthate from the white pine, as well as water.

If my theory is true, then the presence of the ancient white pine is significantly assisting the young oak, even if it’s not doing so willingly.

To add to this- as you might know, trees of the same species have been proven to share photosynthate with each other, even when the roots aren’t grafted. Younger trees are seemingly prioritized. I don’t think it’s a stretch to think that the same happens with trees of different species.


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Click to expand...
That's the crazy thing. I've got some spots with mature trees that are so thick, nothing would come down if you cut it. I wonder about those spots too. Thankfully, I don't need to cut them as they are thick already, and make for good overhead thermal cover with the balsam fir mixed in.
 
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