Length of Chestnut Taproot

[mattpatt]

I know this is a weird question but does anyone know the average length of the taproot on a one year old chestnut seedling (that hasn't been root pruned of course). I'm thinking of experimenting with some homemade air pots which are very long so that I can retain as much of the tap root that I can. Basically I'm shifting my mass quantity approach to one that focuses on less numbers but higher quality seedlings and would still like to experiment with growing a few at home so I can baby them. I think being able to retain as much of the tap root as possible will go a long way towards survival during our hot summers here in Texas.

Thanks,
Matt

 

[CAS_HNTR]

Depends is my answer......if you were direct seeding them in pretty sandy soil, I would say the taproot would end up longer than the tree is tall.....likely 3 ft on a 2 ft tree. However, the pruning pots really keep them in check. With that said.....I would shoot for a 1 to 1 ratio.....assuming the trees will reach 2 ft...I would provide at least that for the root.

My experience with chestnuts is that they are one of the best to grow in the cheap bags (root pouch).....oaks are much more resistant to training of the roots and I end up with some that are circled pretty bad.

 

[mattpatt]

I was thinking 24-30" or so. I'm envisioning some type of pouch made from plastic window screen. Now to figure out diameter. Will probably use PVC as a form to keep them uniform in size and maybe heat seal the seam.


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[Sampson]

Matt.
Please, provide pictures of your finished product. I also need every advantage in the hot SW area of Oklahoma. If you theory is correct, it could be extremely beneficial to several of us. I like where your going with this and will be closely following your progress.



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[Oakseeds]

hope this works (converting a ppt slide to a JPEG file) ... tap root could be as much as 4-5 times tree size ... see 2nd tree from right ... broke the main tap root off the other 3 trees (was in a hurry; didn't want to dig any more) ... good luck!

 

[mattpatt]

Matt.
Please, provide pictures of your finished product. I also need every advantage in the hot SW area of Oklahoma. If you theory is correct, it could be extremely beneficial to several of us. I like where your going with this and will be closely following your progress.



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I will document it here for sure. Right now I'm thinking 2" PVC for the form and about 30' long. Basically think of it as a big sock made of window screen. For the tray I'll use a piece of plywood with legs made out of 2x4s and 2" holes drilled in the plywood. The pouches will be stapled to the lip of the holes in the plywood and allowed to hang underneath. I've got it all in my head on how it might work but hard to describe. My biggest concern is being able to heat seal the window screen. May have to resort to duct tape or staples if I can't get it to melt together.

Matt

 

[Neahawg]

I'd try to come up with a state step system. For instance with root maker pot go from 18s, to 1 gallon to three gallon. Then keep at home over winter and grow in 7 gallon bags the following year. You will get more root development this way as you start your fibrous root building early on.

 

[mattpatt]

I'd try to come up with a state step system. For instance with root maker pot go from 18s, to 1 gallon to three gallon. Then keep at home over winter and grow in 7 gallon bags the following year. You will get more root development this way as you start your fibrous root building early on.

The issue with this is once that taproot is air pruned it's done. It'll shoot out smaller roots from where it was pruned but nothing like it was before. Yes, you can baby the trees for a couple years and up-size pots but you loose that big taproot in the process. I'm looking for a solution that will keep the tap root as long as possible so that when I plant after a year it will have the best chance of survival during our hot dry months here in Texas. The trick will be to find the right diameter versus length so that you still get the benefits of an air root pruning system with a one year seedling while allowing the tap root to grow as long as possible.

I started out using rootmakers like everyone else but the more trees I grow and subsequently loose due to the heat the more I'm convinced that the rootmaker system may not be the best way to go way down here in the South.

Matt

 

[CAS_HNTR]

Just curious......how do you plan to effectively and efficiently plant a tree that has a 3 ft long very vertical tap root?

 

[Neahawg]

The issue with this is once that taproot is air pruned it's done. It'll shoot out smaller roots from where it was pruned but nothing like it was before. Yes, you can baby the trees for a couple years and up-size pots but you loose that big taproot in the process. I'm looking for a solution that will keep the tap root as long as possible so that when I plant after a year it will have the best chance of survival during our hot dry months here in Texas. The trick will be to find the right diameter versus length so that you still get the benefits of an air root pruning system with a one year seedling while allowing the tap root to grow as long as possible.

I started out using rootmakers like everyone else but the more trees I grow and subsequently loose due to the heat the more I'm convinced that the rootmaker system may not be the best way to go way down here in the South.

Matt

That may be true your climate is much worse then mine for heat. However my theory was if you could get a dense three foot bundle of roots from a 7 gallon bag it may create more surface area contact at the same depth of approximately three feet to collect water from. May not have the tree foot carrot like taproot but a very large fibrous rootball.

 

[mattpatt]

Just curious......how do you plan to effectively and efficiently plant a tree that has a 3 ft long very vertical tap root?

Post hole digger. Either manual or with a PTO driven one and a tractor.


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[mattpatt]

That may be true your climate is much worse then mine for heat. However my theory was if you could get a dense three foot bundle of roots from a 7 gallon bag it may create more surface area contact at the same depth of approximately three feet to collect water from. May not have the tree foot carrot like taproot but a very large fibrous rootball.

I have some three year old trees in 7 gallon root pouches right now that I need to get planted.

I'm just tired of the constant struggle of babying trees at my house. I want to be able to grown them a year then plant them in their spots when they go dormant while giving them the best chance for survival.

Matt


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[Redonthehead]

Matt - I don't recall your past work - have you tried direct seeding yet? If not I would certainly encourage you to try it if you have some extra nuts. I've been quite successful with it, and it eliminates a LOT of work both in raising seedlings and planting them. And it "fixes" your goal of maximizing the tap root.

edit - in reading some threads from last fall I think you are already planning some direct seeding.

 

[Neahawg]

I have some three year old trees in 7 gallon root pouches right now that I need to get planted.

I'm just tired of the constant struggle of babying trees at my house. I want to be able to grown them a year then plant them in their spots when they go dormant while giving them the best chance for survival.

Matt


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Check out our hawgerdville thread and look how Merle direct seeded a few and give that a shot in there forever home.

 

[Turkey Creek]

I think there is likely to be a problem with your idea, unless I missed it or didnt quite understand the setup, is going to be watering them in your homemade pouches. I cant see how you are going to get water to pass from the top of the cylinder the full length of a 30" x 2" diameter, suspended window screen. That and you are going to have to find a way to keep the pouches from drying out hourly in the warm sun.

 

[DLH]

You might consider giving the dee pots a try not near that deep but the D60s are 14in deep. Would be a nice in between size to give a try. They are cheap too I seen some for 12.50 for 25 might find them cheaper i didn't look very hard and I'm sure they go down with quantity.

 

[catscratch]

Turkey hit it on the head with the watering thing. I tried something similar with heavy paper rolled into tubes. I don't know the exact measurements but they were as tall as a 5 gallon bucket. I wedged them into a bucket to hold them upright (after I filled them with dirt) and raised chestnuts for a summer. I planted them that fall and they are still doing well. Taproot had just reached the bottom of the tubes at the end of summer.

 

[TreeDaddy]

Matt,

will be following this thread closely,

What are your results with root pruning(rootmaker,pouches) to date?

I also question the validity of these techniques in our harsh summers

Direct seeding or other tap root preservation techniques may be better than "air pruning" in our zones

bill

 

[CAS_HNTR]

I will add one more thought to this......not sure if StormChaser is on here from the old forum, but he was one of the first people to use the Pioneer Pots...a much longer and more open version of a RM18.

I remember him saying that the exposure of the roots to sun and to the wind was an issue as he had originally purchased some pots and not their custom stands (which are basically a box with holes in the top). He ended up figuring out that root part basically had to be shaded and/or protected from the sun/wind or the trees struggled.

I imagine you will have similar issues and likely will have to make sure the root ball is out of the sun and winds.....again, I imagine some large box with holes in the top....alot like a "whack a mole" game! haha

 

[mattpatt]

Thanks for all the input! This is why I love this group. Everyone is willing to share their opinions. Ya'll have raised some very valid concerns. I'm thinking of a wooden box with four to six holes in the top. Like CAS said that would look similar to the whack a mole game. Make it wide enough that I can slip some sort of bucket or container underneath so that I can water from the bottom as well as the top. It would be completely enclosed to minimize the issue of sun and wind drying them out. I'm planning on building one of these as a test this year. In my opinion 4-6 healthy trees with large tap roots beat out 15-20 trees that have had the tap root pruned. Stay tuned...