Keystone Krops

[Mennoniteman]

MM, that spray rig looks just like mine except mine is boomless. What’s the brand name ?

It's a local amish made brand "Iva Mfg", they have dealers in 5 states around the northeast. I like this sprayer pretty good, it's made heavier than most national brands and they use top quality components for the nozzles and pump. I wish that it had foam markers and hydraulic booms, but it's only for wildlife food plots, and those two options take the cost form $4500 to $9000

 

[Mennoniteman]

Deer season is mostly over in PA and I can't wait to get into some serious habitat improvements. I've been tied down with other commitments for the last 4 years, but now I plan to get very real with habitat. First strike is to improve a tight 20 acre stand of 20-30' tall saplings that are the result of a clearcut by the former landowner. There's hardly any deer food or cover in this area, but a Takeuchi t12 with a drum mulcher will change all of that. I call this operation "letting in some sunshine" but it technically would be called a "timber stand improvement".

 

[Mennoniteman]

My drum mulcher contractor ran the track off the T12 twice today on the steeper slopes so I terminated the operation. I think I will grab a chainsaw and make some random clusters to create cover for now and get a bigger machine in later. A slight disappointment that we didn't get more done, but since habitat work is fun anyway, I'm actually looking forward to doing some chainsaw work. And the cost per hour for a chainsaw is 1/100 of the cost of a 110 hp drum mulcher.

 

[Drycreek]

Hate to be a sidewalk superintendent, but if he would work up and down those hills instead of sideways he could keep those tracks on, or maybe tighten the tracks. Be safe with that saw MM, I’m sure you know how dangerous saw work can be.

 

[Mennoniteman]

Hate to be a sidewalk superintendent, but if he would work up and down those hills instead of sideways he could keep those tracks on, or maybe tighten the tracks. Be safe with that saw MM, I’m sure you know how dangerous saw work can be.

Thanks for the safety reminder, I've spent 45 years with a chainsaw in hand and I absolutely need to tell myself that safety reminder every time I go out. Logging is the second most dangerous occupation, right next to being president. Cutting saplings removes the danger of falling trees, but not the danger of kickbacks etc.

I know exactly what you mean about not wanting to be a sidewalk superintendent, how do you tell "an expert" that he's not operating correctly? Before he started we were discussing the project and I told this guy, I'm not trying to tell him how to operate his machine, but I think straight forward runs up and down the slope are going to work the best, but he could not seem operate without backing up and turning all the time. His thing was to run into something for a bit, then back up to see how his work looked thus far, turn a bit and approach from a different angle. Not a good thing with 5" sapling pieces getting in front of the sprockets with rubber tracks.

And you being a lifelong heavy equipment operator that probably knows more about heavy yellow metal than most guys would also know that one of the first things they teach an operator is to "not excavate in reverse". And the second might be that "production is a lot greater with long passes" rather than short choppy turning movements that change direction a lot. But the whole truth of the matter is that the project needs a bigger forestry mulcher machine with steel tracks. However, my budget for this already took a big hit with two days of failures, the clock kept on ticking while we were spending time putting tracks back on and the second day very little work got done but the invoice was high.

I can cut trees by hand with a chainsaw just as fast as this $250 an hour machine was knocking them down, and since my time is free, and the chainsaw costs about $2.50 an hour to keep running, I can work for 1/100 the cost at about the same speed, and the "timber stand improvement" is actually better because with me being more knowledgeable in identifying trees than my operator was, I can be more selective in what I chop down. I'm looking forward to getting started, and maybe I'll stretch this out over multiple years, kindof like @George is doing in KY.

 

[dogghr]

I’m sorry did you use my copyrighted phrase Random Clusters?? My lawyers will contact for royalties.
I think problem w a lot of these guys and equipment they never worked old school dozers and such and now everything done w joysticks. I had a guy work my road and I couldn’t tell if he was working or playing a video game the way he was spinning around.
Have fun getting your chainsaw work done. Good thread as usual.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mennoniteman]

I’m sorry did you use my copyrighted phrase Random Clusters?? My lawyers will contact for royalties.
I think problem w a lot of these guys and equipment they never worked old school dozers and such and now everything done w joysticks. I had a guy work my road and I couldn’t tell if he was working or playing a video game the way he was spinning around.
Have fun getting your chainsaw work done. Good thread as usual.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, I didn't steal your ideas @dogghr because it's still your idea, I'm actually a franchise operating under your supervision. What we need is for you to dust off and fire up the old "random clusters" thread and do a "refreshed summary" of everything that you learned, because I'm interested in copying what you did Whoops, I just admitted that I AM stealing your ideas, didn't I? Well, how about this, I will start cutting, and then next summer you ride your bike up to my place and do an inspection and we'll sit on the front porch of my lodge and drink an ice cold coke (because that's about the strongest spirits I have around my place) and just enjoy watching the world go by?

 

[George]

Thanks for the safety reminder, I've spent 45 years with a chainsaw in hand and I absolutely need to tell myself that safety reminder every time I go out. Logging is the second most dangerous occupation, right next to being president. Cutting saplings removes the danger of falling trees, but not the danger of kickbacks etc.

I know exactly what you mean about not wanting to be a sidewalk superintendent, how do you tell "an expert" that he's not operating correctly? Before he started we were discussing the project and I told this guy, I'm not trying to tell him how to operate his machine, but I think straight forward runs up and down the slope are going to work the best, but he could not seem operate without backing up and turning all the time. His thing was to run into something for a bit, then back up to see how his work looked thus far, turn a bit and approach from a different angle. Not a good thing with 5" sapling pieces getting in front of the sprockets with rubber tracks.

And you being a lifelong heavy equipment operator that probably knows more about heavy yellow metal than most guys would also know that one of the first things they teach an operator is to "not excavate in reverse". And the second might be that "production is a lot greater with long passes" rather than short choppy turning movements that change direction a lot. But the whole truth of the matter is that the project needs a bigger forestry mulcher machine with steel tracks. However, my budget for this already took a big hit with two days of failures, the clock kept on ticking while we were spending time putting tracks back on and the second day very little work got done but the invoice was high.

I can cut trees by hand with a chainsaw just as fast as this $250 an hour machine was knocking them down, and since my time is free, and the chainsaw costs about $2.50 an hour to keep running, I can work for 1/100 the cost at about the same speed, and the "timber stand improvement" is actually better because with me being more knowledgeable in identifying trees than my operator was, I can be more selective in what I chop down. I'm looking forward to getting started, and maybe I'll stretch this out over multiple years, kindof like @George is doing in KY.

I've seen pictures of woods under Men man's care, woods that strike a balance between timber value and wildlife, which are not mutually exclusive. So, I was a bit surprised to see the forest mulcher coming in but I figured that Men man has a plan, and he knows what he is doing. To me, every tree growing is a decision to be made and, on my ground, I am the only one that I can trust to make the right decision.

The antithesis

G

 

[dogghr]

I did have the logger do my dirty work this past 2 years on creating clusters. I will need go in now and do chainsaw work to create some pathways I want in honor of our deceased mentor Chainsaw who frequented this forum. Pics should follow but I’ve become quite lazy w actively posting any more

The Coke porch sit sounds good. May have do the Jeep ride instead. At nearly 3 score 11 I’m not doing long rides much anymore on the bike despite her still calling to me


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[Native Hunter]

I did have the logger do my dirty work this past 2 years on creating clusters. I will need go in now and do chainsaw work to create some pathways I want in honor of our deceased mentor Chainsaw who frequented this forum. Pics should follow but I’ve become quite lazy w actively posting any more

The Coke porch sit sounds good. May have do the Jeep ride instead. At nearly 3 score 11 I’m not doing long rides much anymore on the bike despite her still calling to me


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When I steal your ideas, I just keep my mouth shut and pretend like I know what I'm doing...........

 

[RGrizzzz]

Speaking of Random Clusters TM, does anyone know where I can buy potted pine/spruce? I'm talking small stuff. 12" tall roughly. Bonus if it's PA. I can get free potted seedlings through a 10M trees offshoot, but it's really hard to get pine/price from them..

 

[Mennoniteman]

Speaking of Random Clusters TM, does anyone know where I can buy potted pine/spruce? I'm talking small stuff. 12" tall roughly. Bonus if it's PA. I can get free potted seedlings through a 10M trees offshoot, but it's really hard to get pine/price from them..

Lancaster County Conservancy has a tree sale every spring and sell 12" pine and spruce in bundles of 10 for $12 a bundle, which you could pot yourself, although at that point I'd just plant them in cages. Here's what last year's sale looked like, I've had great success with their apple trees

Tree Sale - Lancaster County Conservation District

lancasterconservation.org

 

[RGrizzzz]

Lancaster County Conservancy has a tree sale every spring and sell 12" pine and spruce in bundles of 10 for $12 a bundle, which you could pot yourself, although at that point I'd just plant them in cages. Here's what last year's sale looked like, I've had great success with their apple trees

Tree Sale - Lancaster County Conservation District

lancasterconservation.org

I can find plenty of bare root. The potted seedlings go right into the ground and seem to get going faster than bare root. Whichever gets planted will get a cage.

 

[Mennoniteman]

When I steal your ideas, I just keep my mouth shut and pretend like I know what I'm doing...........

Better to become a franchisee like me and get free advice from the random clusters @dogghr entrepreneur!

 

[Mennoniteman]

I can find plenty of bare root. The potted seedlings go right into the ground and seem to get going faster than bare root. Whichever gets planted will get a cage.

These people have pretty good trees and they seem to grow better as bare root stock than some potted trees I've purchased. Plant 3 in every cage and thin them later.

 

[Mennoniteman]

I did have the logger do my dirty work this past 2 years on creating clusters. I will need go in now and do chainsaw work to create some pathways I want in honor of our deceased mentor Chainsaw who frequented this forum. Pics should follow but I’ve become quite lazy w actively posting any more

The Coke porch sit sounds good. May have do the Jeep ride instead. At nearly 3 score 11 I’m not doing long rides much anymore on the bike despite her still calling to me


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have a special jeep parking space designated for each one of my mentors

 

[Mennoniteman]

I've seen pictures of woods under Men man's care, woods that strike a balance between timber value and wildlife, which are not mutually exclusive. So, I was a bit surprised to see the forest mulcher coming in but I figured that Men man has a plan, and he knows what he is doing. To me, every tree growing is a decision to be made and, on my ground, I am the only one that I can trust to make the right decision.

The antithesis

G

Arrrgh! Watching that video was a gutwrenchingly painful experience. Aptly noted as antithesis, especially where he says that the landowner should have cut down that whiteoak tree, a 6" diameter tree that took 20 plus years to get that big, and the only good tree in a hundred foot circle. And I laughed when he said he has a deer bedroom with an overhead ceiling of branches, then says that the thing to do is throw another big tree on top of the pile, which smashed the canopy so flat only rabbits could get under it anymore. I recommend that to become a habitat expert everyone should watch this video, and then do the exact opposite

 

[Mennoniteman]

I've seen pictures of woods under Men man's care, woods that strike a balance between timber value and wildlife, which are not mutually exclusive. So, I was a bit surprised to see the forest mulcher coming in but I figured that Men man has a plan, and he knows what he is doing. To me, every tree growing is a decision to be made and, on my ground, I am the only one that I can trust to make the right decision.

The antithesis

G

You are correct once again, usually when making better habitat, selecting which trees to be cut down should be a conscious, careful, and calculated decision based on quality and quantity.
And, I also absolutely love how you say "woods that strike a balance between timber value and wildlife are not mutually exclusive", this is preaching words right out of the MANAGED WOODLANDS bible. A healthy forest has big trees, middle sized trees, small trees, and lots of undergrowth. This utopia has the fastest rates of timber growth and the best wildlife habitat all at the same time.
So, back to bringing in a disc mulcher, I view this as just another tool in the toolbox, though mostly useful for only one thing, that is quickly restoring a mismanaged woods that has been clearcut a dozen years ago, and is now a thick monoculture stand of (oak tree in my case) saplings 3-4 inches in diameter. A forestry mulcher will open up and quickly shred 2/3 of these saplings, saving a lot of backbreaking labor with a chainsaw. After the trash from this work decays a bit this timber stand should be selectively thinned a bit further by hand.
The big difference between bringing in a forestry machine and cutting by hand with a chainsaw is scarification. Prescribed fire can bring about somewhat of the same results, but we're almost not allowed to burn.
Sometimes I see a woods where someone has done some cutting by hand and no underbrush grows, an example being the woods in the above mentioned amateur video, nothing grows, not as much from lack of sunlight as from a very thick thatch of leaves the hasn't been scarified by machinery to release the seeds that are trapped by the dead leaves on the ground.
So, I admit, me bringing in a drum mulcher is a bad example, because it is not the answer for most people's habitat needs.
However, in several years I will be posting pictures of the several acres that we thinned, compared to the identical untouched adjacent area, and it will look like a miraculous transformation. There's something about scarification, exposing strips of topsoil, and the mat of wood chips left behind that works like miracle gro, and woody brush and forbs take off like Jack's beanstalk. Allen

 

[George]

Arrrgh! Watching that video was a gutwrenchingly painful experience. Aptly noted as antithesis, especially where he says that the landowner should have cut down that whiteoak tree, a 6" diameter tree that took 20 plus years to get that big, and the only good tree in a hundred foot circle. And I laughed when he said he has a deer bedroom with an overhead ceiling of branches, then says that the thing to do is throw another big tree on top of the pile, which smashed the canopy so flat only rabbits could get under it anymore. I recommend that to become a habitat expert everyone should watch this video, and then do the exact opposite

Painful indeed, Randy is the side kick of Jake and Jim, all fallen LaPratt apostles that became deer experts. I watched one of his videos where he went down a row along a cattail marsh and dropped big trees into the marsh. He said now big bucks are going to come out and walk this path and get killed by his client in a stand down the way. He had no concept of how bucks relate to the cattail, shrub and tree interface. If I were the landowner I would have sued him for malpractice.

In the aforementioned video he talked about cutting down a beautiful young white oak and a black oak, then he showed clips of him doing so on other jobs. Again, malpractice, Lloyds of London must be carrying his policy. I put a stand in a black oak this year, I did notice that it was dropping acorns. Turns out it was the go to feed tree.

I did my own hinge cut experiments in Iowa, I made similar overhead structures out of hickory right where does where bedding. Does continued to bed in the area around my structures never did I see beds under the structures. In cold weather they bed where broomsedge met cedar on southern exposures. I did a larger hinge cut experiment in Kentucky when I hinge cut 2 acres of red maple. In the following 3 years deer just did not relate much to that patch. Once I ran fire through it and cut down 90% of the hinge cuts it became good/used deer habitat.

These youtube habitat experts seem to all want people to believe that bucks bed on top. Occasionally I would find buck beds on top along the giant fallen bur oaks in Iowa. Even on those smaller ridges most bucks bed on southern exposure side slopes or down off the top out on the nose of the ridge. Here in Kentucky bucks bed 100 feet down in the tops of the watersheds.

New land owners would be money way ahead to buy a good tree ID manual and a Stihl, not an expert. On one video someone asked deer expert Jeff Sturgis, okay the land owner did everything that they paid him to tell and plan out for them and they still don't kill big bucks. Jeff's response was they don't kill big bucks because they are not me. Buyer beware.

G

 

[George]

You are correct once again, usually when making better habitat, selecting which trees to be cut down should be a conscious, careful, and calculated decision based on quality and quantity.
And, I also absolutely love how you say "woods that strike a balance between timber value and wildlife are not mutually exclusive", this is preaching words right out of the MANAGED WOODLANDS bible. A healthy forest has big trees, middle sized trees, small trees, and lots of undergrowth. This utopia has the fastest rates of timber growth and the best wildlife habitat all at the same time.
So, back to bringing in a disc mulcher, I view this as just another tool in the toolbox, though mostly useful for only one thing, that is quickly restoring a mismanaged woods that has been clearcut a dozen years ago, and is now a thick monoculture stand of (oak tree in my case) saplings 3-4 inches in diameter. A forestry mulcher will open up and quickly shred 2/3 of these saplings, saving a lot of backbreaking labor with a chainsaw. After the trash from this work decays a bit this timber stand should be selectively thinned a bit further by hand.
The big difference between bringing in a forestry machine and cutting by hand with a chainsaw is scarification. Prescribed fire can bring about somewhat of the same results, but we're almost not allowed to burn.
Sometimes I see a woods where someone has done some cutting by hand and no underbrush grows, an example being the woods in the above mentioned amateur video, nothing grows, not as much from lack of sunlight as from a very thick thatch of leaves the hasn't been scarified by machinery to release the seeds that are trapped by the dead leaves on the ground.
So, I admit, me bringing in a drum mulcher is a bad example, because it is not the answer for most people's habitat needs.
However, in several years I will be posting pictures of the several acres that we thinned, compared to the identical untouched adjacent area, and it will look like a miraculous transformation. There's something about scarification, exposing strips of topsoil, and the mat of wood chips left behind that works like miracle gro, and woody brush and forbs take off like Jack's beanstalk. Allen

Sorry for the tangent. That sounds like a good oak reset.

G