Interesting Thought--Mature Bucks

[THE LLC]

You know we all hear about how hard a 4 year or older buck is to kill and how they act like a whole different species. I'm starting to doubt that wisdom. Actually I believe they are EASIER to kill it's just there are a lot fewer of them, but a higher percentage of hunters chasing them. In Nebarska every buck we pass to 4 gets killed---primarily by neighbors and road poachers. Here in Georgia, soon as they hit 4, the neighbors kill them. None ever get passed 4.

 

[Jack Terpack]

I agree with this theory. In PA, we notice a drastic increase in road hunters when someone starts talking about a big buck they've seen , normally at night. Recreational spotlighting is legal in PA. It used to be a big highlight for us when we were kids to go out with Dad and look for deer. Most of the people we see doing it today don't have any kids in the cars but they have guns. That in itself is illegal. We also catch more trespassers every year that we get pics of a good buck. This past season, we got at least 20 calls from people wanting to get permission to hunt our property. When we decline, some of them get rude and threatening. Our neighbors have begun to control the hunting pressure on their land also and we, as a group, are noticing an improvement in the overall age and health of our deer. With success comes problems though. Our one neighbor caught and pressed charge on 6 people trespassing this past season. We have an almost constant presence on our land during daylight hours so we haven't had any issues lately. I harvested a 4.5 year old this year. He is the biggest and oldest buck I've ever taken. We thought all season about road hunters and trespassers. The local game wardens have been really good at patrolling our area because we have prosecuted several people over the past few years.

 

[Buckly]

The neighbors are either better hunters than you or , have better spots than you do. If you don't believe that then ask yourself why are they killing them, and you're not. There are many bucks from my property that ARE'NT on my walls. I set out several years ago with an all out effort to stop that from happening. You can do it too. Now I kill the best bucks and the neighbors wonder where the deer are. LOL. How? This is what I did. Created huge amounts of cover and sanctuary. Blocked off major trails and escape routes that went right to the neighbors with hinge cuts. Permanent and temporary screens everywhere I could. I also cut my hunting time down considerably and made an effort so that my access is now much better. Then, inside the impenetrable perimeter I stuff them with food.
Look for holes in your property. Look for holes in your hunting and then make corrections. There you will find the answer.

 

[buckdeer1]

I think there are a number of mature bucks that just don't get killed because they are too smart until a doe or someone gets lucky.I have bucks that I get pics of but either never see or have seen once or twice at most and we find sheds from deer that we don't even get on camera.

 

[Btaylor]

For me it is once they hit the 5th year that they start getting tough. Like a lot of studies point too, I think their core areas start shrinking then and the smaller that area the more difficult they are to get in bow range without them knowing they are being hunted. Of course the area one hunts dictates a lot of that too. Bigger unbroken timber is imo a lot more difficult than broken farm country.

 

[OkieKubota]

As said above unbroken timber deer are a whole different animal than a farm deer...

 

[dogdoc]

As said above unbroken timber deer are a whole different animal than a farm deer...

Yes they are but you seem to have the art of killing big deer in heavy timber

 

[JDunham]

The neighbors are either better hunters than you or , have better spots than you do. If you don't believe that then ask yourself why are they killing them, and you're not. There are many bucks from my property that ARE'NT on my walls. I set out several years ago with an all out effort to stop that from happening. You can do it too. Now I kill the best bucks and the neighbors wonder where the deer are. LOL. How? This is what I did. Created huge amounts of cover and sanctuary. Blocked off major trails and escape routes that went right to the neighbors with hinge cuts. Permanent and temporary screens everywhere I could. I also cut my hunting time down considerably and made an effort so that my access is now much better. Then, inside the impenetrable perimeter I stuff them with food.
Look for holes in your property. Look for holes in your hunting and then make corrections. There you will find the answer.

We went through a period where the neighbors were killing most of our better bucks. We made the same changes Buckly mentioned and it has really improved the hunting. We are holding and killing more of the bigger deer than the neighbors now.

 

[THE LLC]

Main reason I don't kill them is because I don't hunt much. But cameras don't lie. The deer are there until 3 then at 4 they're killed. Few, if any exceptions. They get killed because they are easier to kill---if you put the time in.

 

[boot]

I think, and from what I've seen, road hunters/poachers have a massive impact on this that may be more profound than we think, its estimated that just as many deer are killed illegally every year than legally

 

[dogghr]

When does a mature/4+ yo begin to travel the most during hunting season? Of course night, especially in heavy hunter pressure areas. First, cars and trucks take their toll then, especially right after sundown and right before sunup. Just look at the road kill.
Second. if you are spotlighting deer/poaching then when is the best time to catch a trophy buck? Of course in the dead of the night. Legal hunters try to catch them in legal light, the poacher has 10 hours of hunting you don't. Game wardens I have talked to have had more poaching than ever the last few years. And poachers aren't all the yahoo, beer intoxicated crowd always. One of the relatives of a land I hunt was caught shooting 6 shots at a Robo deer while his wife drove the car. Yea they were 80 years old. I'll be honest, I seldom post pics of good bucks on camera or ones I've shot anymore. And my mouth is sealed with the neighbors. I only take a deer off the farm to butcher after dark. Hate that is so, but so be it. And I have pretty decent neighbors.
And I agree, improving bedding area for the Bucks is very important to keep them close.
Plus, I got my nice 10 pt as described, right before sunrise with my Jeep. $6200 which is what…90$/pound? Expensive meat.

 

[Kwood]

Not sure I agree with all of that. I doubt the get easier to kill, I think rather they get more difficult to pass. In my area rough numbers would say 75% of 1.5's that wonder off my property get a pass... about 50% of 2.5's get a pass, only about 25% of 3.5's get a pass, and damn near 0% of 4.5's get a pass.

I think you have it backwards, they aren't easier to kill, they are harder to "not kill".


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[Chainsaw]

Not sure I agree with all of that. I doubt the get easier to kill, I think rather they get more difficult to pass. In my area rough numbers would say 75% of 1.5's that wonder off my property get a pass... about 50% of 2.5's get a pass, only about 25% of 3.5's get a pass, and damn near 0% of 4.5's get a pass.

I think you have it backwards, they aren't easier to kill, they are harder to "not kill".


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You live in a good area kwood. In our area we have seen vast improvements in amount of deer passed in recent years. Still I'm figuring on 50% of 1 1/2 on our neighboring properties may get a pass some days, 2.5's will get a pass on maybe 20%. 3.5 and 4.5 are still rare in my area and I don't know of any legitimate and legal hunter passing them up.

On the original intent of the thread I agree with the premise that they are not so hard to kill as they are to grow. Actually it seems they are fairly easy to take on the right days. The key is the days are few and hunting on the bad days trains them to not walk by our stands on the good days. So yes they are not so hard to connect with if we ourselves don't mess up the deal before its time.

 

[g squared 23]

100% disagree with "easier to kill", but I buy "harder to pass".

I had 2 great bucks on cam through the end of bow season last year (Jan 15th), yet did not get a pic this year at all. They either moved their home range, or they are dead. Either way, mortality is much greater on older bucks. They have to make it through 3 months of legally fired arrows and bullets, EHD, coyotes and injuries from battling for does. As well as the night hunters and hillbillies with nothing to lose.

They are more difficult to kill because there are few of them AND they are cautious/smart/whatever.

 

[j-bird]

I will agree with the it's easier to pass the average 3 year old vs passing a 4. Not sure I could do it (pass a 4)....to be honest I haven't been able to yet. That is a big leap in management in my opinion and one that far fewer people are willing to make. Getting them to pass yearlings and 2 year old deer and maybe some 3's is one thing. But a 4 year old deer is a real nice deer in most locations so not many folks are going to pass that up. Especially if your hunting with lots of hunting pressure and small parcels. The numbers are just against you. You see a quarter on the sidewalk do you pick it up or keep walking? What if it's a dollar? Or a fiver? Some folks will knock you down for a quarter while others just keep walking.

Remember how many 2's we had to kill to get that out of our system to be able to pass a 2 and hold out for a 3? I do. I finally moved up to passing 3's and holding out for 4's (outside a mistake or two). I am TRYING to move from passing the 4's and taking 5's now, but it's a process and a long one at that. If you hunting is fairly limited as well, while others are camping in the stand, well that can work for or against you as well. Being able to hold and protect deer on small properties is nearly impossible - especially once the rut kicks in.

I also think those deer that survive a few hunting seasons also wise up to some extent and learn and adapt to better ways of staying alive and avoiding hunters. Now they still act stupid during the rut, but that's just how it is. Hunting a mature deer on their home turf is tough simply because they know the area so well and you have to hope they make a mistake. The rut tosses caution to the wind in some cases and if your neighbor holds does then that is where those bucks are going to go.

I actually had to come to this realization myself on my place. My place grossly lacks cover but has a ton of food. So I can support a few does groups, but I lack the depth of cover to house mature bucks on a regular basis. So I have to use what I have to my advantage. I focused on what I had and not on what I didn't. I use food to hold the does and then I wait for the does to bring the bucks to me. Sure, all my neighbors get a crack at those bucks first, but it's the only real hope I have. I have had a few buck beds, but they are few and far between. Our properties are not islands and what happens beyond that property line we have very little influence over. Until you can change something to hold those deer on your place OR change the attitudes of those around you.....you are more than likely going to experience the same thing over and over. You could control 1,000 acres and your still going to have to share some of those deer with the neighbors....it's just part of the "fair chase" experience.....like it or not.

 

[Blizzard Ridge]

Well first off I agree with the majority. It is harder to pass 4 yr olds vs easier to kill 4 yr olds. Although I do believe 3.5 to 4.5 age deer do go through a stretch when they are easier to kill. The majority of the "good bucks" I have running around my farms are 4 yr olds. What I don't agree with is full majority at 4 yr old, I try to not target a buck until he reaches the 5 to 6 mark. At 3 yr old I start keeping their trail camera pictures and not deleting as they come in. At 4 yr old I usually have a good idea of whether the deer has the potential to be a giant or not and then I try to back the pressure off of his core area in hopes that he stays put through the peak movement times that neighbors start to beat up the property lines. When/if that particular buck makes it to that 5 yr old mark and if he becomes a target buck I will then start to hunt him.

To me the secret to growing and holding big mature bucks is 100% pressure. If you keep the pressure down and have the habitat to support them, those older bucks will make it through the crazy times of the year. Give him a reason not to leave, security, food, water and enough of a doe herd to keep him busy on your farm during the rut. Then counter that with low low low hunting pressure. If you are in and out of the same farm or same areas day in and day out during lets say the rut, you will push him off or even worse your doe herd off and there you go the neighbor kills him.

I have a farm that this happened on this year. I have plenty of cover on the far end of my farm from the hunters but no food this year. The deer started to feed toward the neighbors. In that two week period of the rut they killed two 3 yr olds and a 4 yr old that I have trail camera pictures of. Sometimes no matter what you do you will lose some to the neighbors but all we can do as habitat managers is try to supply everything they need and keep our fingers crossed.

 

[Native Hunter]

I'm not that good with math, but mature deer math is easy for me.

2 = mature resident bucks we started season with
2 = visiting mature bucks
4 = total for season beginning
-----------------------------------------
1 = disappeared (no clue but obviously dead)
1 = we killed
1 = went home
1 = just got run over on a highway, 15 minutes ago 3,872.36 feet from my farm (per Google Map) (pic from neighbor to verify)

0 = Total left

 

[Chainsaw]

I'm not that good with math, but mature deer math is easy for me.

2 = mature resident bucks we started season with
2 = visiting mature bucks
4 = total for season beginning
-----------------------------------------
1 = disappeared (no clue but obviously dead)
1 = we killed
1 = went home
1 = just got run over on a highway, 15 minutes ago 3,872.36 feet from my farm (per Google Map) (pic from neighbor to verify)

0 = Total left

While we do not all agree that mature bucks are easy to kill it is for sure that their chances of survival are extremely low. It used to be here that a 2 1/2 seldom made it through. Now its 3 1/2 that seldom get through here. For you hopefully you'll have a new crop of 4 1/2 for next season. You are in a great place NH.

 

[OkieKubota]

I'm not that good with math, but mature deer math is easy for me.

2 = mature resident bucks we started season with
2 = visiting mature bucks
4 = total for season beginning
-----------------------------------------
1 = disappeared (no clue but obviously dead)
1 = we killed
1 = went home
1 = just got run over on a highway, 15 minutes ago 3,872.36 feet from my farm (per Google Map) (pic from neighbor to verify)

0 = Total left

So did your big 8 point get run over?

So far our backyard cam only shows a big mature 6 point that lived but I haven't checked the across the road cams yet...

 

[Native Hunter]

So did your big 8 point get run over?

So far our backyard cam only shows a big mature 6 point that lived but I haven't checked the across the road cams yet...

Yes, it was definitely him. When my neighbor first texted me I though he was probably just mistaken. But then he sent a picture.

I'm like some basketball teams now - going into a rebuilding year.