Doe Shooter
Active Member
Yep. Best time.
Habitat work having negative impact?
- Thread starter j-bird
- Start date
Yep. Best time.
Charlieyca
Active Member
I faced the same issue last fall and this year. It was july of 2015 when we bought the property so we have no time to hang stands or plant anything without adding pressure to the deer. We took the approach of a 3 year plan to start. Each year we wanted to decrease the amount of time we spent in the woods (non-hunting). We still have so much work to do and little time to do it, but this way we improved the land each year and developed good habits long term for the land. The first year (last year) I hunted the mornings then did work around the farm after. I accepted that deer sighting would go down, but long term it had to be done. This year, sept 1 until rifle season (Middle October) we did no habitat work and daylight sighting went up. After rifle season began we are starting back some maintenance and accept the fact that we are pressuring deer when we can still hunt. Next year, our goal is to have no intrusions from sept 15 (planting date) til the end of november. Its hard because I enjoy the habitat work as much as I do the hunting. My father was a little slow to the habitat stuff, but after 40 year of deer hunting other peoples land, the challenge has changed and reignited him.
I dont claim this is the best practice, but so far we have been very pleased with the balance of the hunting and habitat work. Also late season when we bring friends and family to hunt, we get some labor out of them haha.
I dont claim this is the best practice, but so far we have been very pleased with the balance of the hunting and habitat work. Also late season when we bring friends and family to hunt, we get some labor out of them haha.
The animal will adapt....and you don't need those who won't adapt.....animal adaptation takes time.....the time you are managing is generations of deer.....and number of adapted generations depend on how fast you turnover the herd and where most of that turnover takes place. The younger generations develop along with your intrusions and work habits....so their flight zone should change over time compared to past relatives....becoming smaller rather than larger flight zone. This may get ridiculous to the point you are more concerned how close the deer come to you than the deer are concerned about how close they get to you.
Provide what the animal needs....food, water, cover, space....and let them adapt...to a ROUTINE....your routine! Any activity which infringes upon food, water, cover, or space will cause a transient reaction from wildlife...that is normal behavior.....just as a shift from one food source to another is normal behavior....or a shift in home range use due to breeding activity is normal....all must be considered as a WHOLE for animal behavior! If you don't have deer staying resident 12 months of the year....there is a big problem in habitat quality or quantity!
We often hear people say they are amazed at the amount of wildlife viewed on the ranch given the frequent work we do. There is quite a bit more to it than simple observation. Cattle is an easy one...since cattle have been on the ranch over 50 years, there isn't a deer generation living here who doesn't know how to behave and move around cattle. On a weekly to daily basis, truck ATV and foot traffic is common...not over the whole ranch equally.....but certainly over the majority....especially in and around the cow herd. Much of this activity is viewed by the resident wildlife as 'non-threatening' for the majority of the year. WE don't stop and spend alot of time gawking at wildlife....instead continue as normal....that is non-threating behavior. IF you have to walk and check fence etc.....then walk in a normal pace....don't sneak along like a predator...but by all means scout as you walk.
Every wild herd has individuals which vary in comfort level around human intrusion. Thus, each property should have areas which vary in frequency of intrusion to create a 'sanctuary effect'. Animals in your hub of activity will tolerate more activity than those on the back 40! Those on the back 40, especially the older adults, are most apt to cause problems...for bucks it isn't an issue if your hunt/strategize accordingly. Older animals (does in particular) tend to be overly reactive to anything out of the ordinary....especially during rut when they are being constantly harassed by every male and sound travels much further due to leaf drop. That flighty behavior has a ripple effect which transfers to more adapted animals during that time of year. Pretty soon everybody is on high alert in November and normally the old nag started such....to the point where 2 deer of the same sex 300 yards apart staring at one another causes a flight reaction! There are a couple ways to deal with this....cull the old naggy does with a bullet and eat them (if your goal is adapted animals with calmer behavior).....control your activity to lessen distance noise travels through timber.....maybe walk or drive the truck rather than run the ATV or tractor...note wind direction when you drive to lessen distance noise travels. Noise carries much further in Nov than Oct and further with than again the wind....pay more attention to your noise when leaves drop!
Remember, November is the month of most deer activity....that naturally encourages more alert behavior among all ages and genders of deer....try avoidance measures which reduce chaos created by your activity! This isn't limited to deer either...turkey can become extremely wary during the breeding season as hens seek solitude for nesting and males fret battles with other males or predators! This time of year we see groups of tom turkey which could care less of our close presence.
Provide what the animal needs....food, water, cover, space....and let them adapt...to a ROUTINE....your routine! Any activity which infringes upon food, water, cover, or space will cause a transient reaction from wildlife...that is normal behavior.....just as a shift from one food source to another is normal behavior....or a shift in home range use due to breeding activity is normal....all must be considered as a WHOLE for animal behavior! If you don't have deer staying resident 12 months of the year....there is a big problem in habitat quality or quantity!
We often hear people say they are amazed at the amount of wildlife viewed on the ranch given the frequent work we do. There is quite a bit more to it than simple observation. Cattle is an easy one...since cattle have been on the ranch over 50 years, there isn't a deer generation living here who doesn't know how to behave and move around cattle. On a weekly to daily basis, truck ATV and foot traffic is common...not over the whole ranch equally.....but certainly over the majority....especially in and around the cow herd. Much of this activity is viewed by the resident wildlife as 'non-threatening' for the majority of the year. WE don't stop and spend alot of time gawking at wildlife....instead continue as normal....that is non-threating behavior. IF you have to walk and check fence etc.....then walk in a normal pace....don't sneak along like a predator...but by all means scout as you walk.
Every wild herd has individuals which vary in comfort level around human intrusion. Thus, each property should have areas which vary in frequency of intrusion to create a 'sanctuary effect'. Animals in your hub of activity will tolerate more activity than those on the back 40! Those on the back 40, especially the older adults, are most apt to cause problems...for bucks it isn't an issue if your hunt/strategize accordingly. Older animals (does in particular) tend to be overly reactive to anything out of the ordinary....especially during rut when they are being constantly harassed by every male and sound travels much further due to leaf drop. That flighty behavior has a ripple effect which transfers to more adapted animals during that time of year. Pretty soon everybody is on high alert in November and normally the old nag started such....to the point where 2 deer of the same sex 300 yards apart staring at one another causes a flight reaction! There are a couple ways to deal with this....cull the old naggy does with a bullet and eat them (if your goal is adapted animals with calmer behavior).....control your activity to lessen distance noise travels through timber.....maybe walk or drive the truck rather than run the ATV or tractor...note wind direction when you drive to lessen distance noise travels. Noise carries much further in Nov than Oct and further with than again the wind....pay more attention to your noise when leaves drop!
Remember, November is the month of most deer activity....that naturally encourages more alert behavior among all ages and genders of deer....try avoidance measures which reduce chaos created by your activity! This isn't limited to deer either...turkey can become extremely wary during the breeding season as hens seek solitude for nesting and males fret battles with other males or predators! This time of year we see groups of tom turkey which could care less of our close presence.
j-bird
Well-Known Member
I can appreciate the deer becoming used to the "routine" - and maybe I over-reacted a bit base don what I saw. It was just grossly dis-heartening to see a beautiful buck run back and forth like it was crazy and be just out of reach like that. It still gives me something to think about.....maybe I need to lay low sooner in the year.
MarkDarvin
Well-Known Member
I aim for 8 weeks of quiet before I hunt. I am also throwing that very guideline out next year. I plan to make one excursion into the woods about three weeks before opener to rake leaves and sticks off my trails. It was very dry this year, and loud as hell coming and going from the stand. Swirling winds were tricky enough, it'd be nice to get in the stand walking on dirt instead of crispy leaves and bone dry twigs.
I would keep searching for another answer. I've seen the same behavior on my property even when only setting foot on it three times since spring green up. Still seeing nocturnal buck activity after only two visits in 4 months. In my uneducated opinion, safe bedding can be a huge driver in where deer bed. Even if you achieve it, you've got to have an opinion leader in the group choose to use it, and that can take time.
I would keep searching for another answer. I've seen the same behavior on my property even when only setting foot on it three times since spring green up. Still seeing nocturnal buck activity after only two visits in 4 months. In my uneducated opinion, safe bedding can be a huge driver in where deer bed. Even if you achieve it, you've got to have an opinion leader in the group choose to use it, and that can take time.
Charlieyca
Active Member
J-Bird I would not let one deer during the rut dictate changes to your habitat plan. Right now I know my deer are not using my property as much as 2 weeks ago, most likely due to acorns on the ground in the surrounding areas and the majority of the soybeans being picked. They are not going to my plots or using the same bedding areas. After my hunt saturday, I walked essentially my property line to reassess how the deer were using my property. There was 2 new trails in areas I had not seen deer use previous. One trail ran parallel to the highway, 50 yds from the road and I walked right past it every hunt. They are simply walking straight through my property now, instead of stopping for groceries.
Like a previous post said, I now have to switch gears and hunt the trails they are using and make note to plant a diversity of oaks so in the future they are adjusting to my land.
Like a previous post said, I now have to switch gears and hunt the trails they are using and make note to plant a diversity of oaks so in the future they are adjusting to my land.
Heart shot
Active Member
I agree, you should not base the success of your plan and habitat on one deer. The rut makes deer do crazy things. Do all you know he could have been chasing and running on your place the day before and the day after and you weren't there to see it
wbpdeer
Well-Known Member
I would add oaks but I suggest you make sure you put chestnuts in and pear trees in. Pear trees will bear real soon and chestnuts will bear faster than the regular oaks will bear. Just my two cents ...
I remember the first time I heard someone say - If you have a black thumb, you can still grow pear trees. I found that funny and I was not sure if I believed it was that easy.
Now I can say - Pear Trees are that easy.
Native Hunter in KY has it various pears that bear over a long range of time. Be nice to get a pear tree to draw deer in front of your young children when they become old enough to get to hunt.
Charlieyca
Active Member
Bird, come back in 1 week and share what patterns you see. I know here in NC this time of year can be boom or bust depending on acorn drop and the rut. A
j-bird
Well-Known Member
I have a few chestnut planted already - but not bearing yet. I have a few apple trees as well and they just started bearing as well. I don't have any pears - I will look into them. I also release every oak I have and just had a timber harvest and spread roughly 2,000 acorns this fall in an effort to bolster some oak regen as well. I also have roughly 100 sawtooth acorns to plant this spring. Food isn't the issue.......I know cover is my limiting factor. I just think my overall activity level may be the issue. I'll spend a great deal of time in the woods over the next two weeks and see if I still feel the same way.I would add oaks but I suggest you make sure you put chestnuts in and pear trees in. Pear trees will bear real soon and chestnuts will bear faster than the regular oaks will bear. Just my two cents ...
I remember the first time I heard someone say - If you have a black thumb, you can still grow pear trees. I found that funny and I was not sure if I believed it was that easy.
Now I can say - Pear Trees are that easy.
Native Hunter in KY has it various pears that bear over a long range of time. Be nice to get a pear tree to draw deer in front of your young children when they become old enough to get to hunt.
Native Hunter
Well-Known Member
J-bird, I have followed your post some over the years, and I'm impressed with your success.
I understand the problems with lack of cover, because I have dealt with it all my life. Before I started developing my farm, the places I hunted were all that way. Even now, although I have lots of cover with the NWSGs, the areas around me suffer from lack of cover, so it still limits me. You can't change 100 acres and it make up for what lacks in the surrounding area.
In this type situation, its not the quantity of cover that deer seek out - its the cover with no human interference. Mature bucks will make their home in cover spots so small that no one would expect it - all because its safe from humans and dogs. In fact, when the hunting army heads for the woods, they head to the places with the biggest and best cover. Suddenly, it may still be big, but in the deer's eyes, its not the best anymore.
I think what you are seeing is possibly two things: (1) probably a dip in the cycle, and (2) maybe a little too much human activity at the wrong times of the year.
You are in a great area of the country for big deer.
We are starting our hunting tomorrow and will hit it hard for several days. My cameras show the "peak mature buck movement" occurred here from the end of October through about November 6. All the reports from my friends bow hunting back that up, and all are extremely discouraged right now, because it appears to be over............
And, that was the case last year too. But I hung with it and on the 7th day of season killed a 6.5 year old buck at 2 in the afternoon in a wide open food plot eating like a young calf. That plot had been free of human scent for a very long time, and that's what sealed the deal. A miracle like that isn't likely to happen again this year, but I won't know if I'm not there watching.
Best wishes, and if I was a betting man, I would put my money on you being able to make a few changes and being better than ever in a short time. In fact, I would put my money on you being more successful than me in the future in terms of killing nice deer.
Steve
Hoosierhunting
Well-Known Member
J-Bird, It can be frustrating as hell if you think your efforts are hurting more than helping...been there. If you're basing this off of one or two sits and watching one buck on the other side of the line maybe just don't overthink it....not much of a sample size to draw conclusions from.
Some of this has already been covered but I've been intending to post about this. Lot's of us approach our management practices by asking what is the "limiting factor" and then proceeding to add more of it....be it food, cover, water, bedding etc. The thing I realized about my part of Indiana is that the limiting factor is really pressure. In ag country there's food everywhere, up here in the North we deal with small landholdings and field sizes so there's edge everywhere and all that edge provides lots of browse and bedding cover, we have an abundance of water in cover. So in reality, that patchwork of fields, fencerows and woodlots is already great whitetail habitat. Just like everybody on this board, I try to improve my property but what I believe is that these improvements are incremental and not going to pull deer out of already good habitat if it's less pressured. Between mushroom hunting, spring turkey, shooting, atv's/motocross, shooting, paintball, bonfires and beers, and on and on....lots of properties around me get tons of human pressure. While deer are adaptable, I believe that mature deer will always choose less pressured property provided it's offering the basics of food/water/cover. If you have a big hole in the food/water/cover equation then addressing that will provide real results, after that it's just incremental improvements that you have to weigh against the pressure you're creating.
I try to focus now as much on pressure as on incremental habitat improvements and believe that the focus on pressure has improved my hunting more than the latter. So with that mentality, I'm off the property by August 1st except for very occasional camera checks. I treat as much of it as sanctuary as I can while still enjoying it. I also go to extremes with scent control (my place is relatively small) during camera checks and hunting season which I now see as critical, along with the normal focus on approaches, etc. Depending on your situation, you may find that laying off the property earlier and if possible trading off your 3 small sanctuaries into a single larger sanctuary improves your hunting as much or more than your other habitat work.
Some of this has already been covered but I've been intending to post about this. Lot's of us approach our management practices by asking what is the "limiting factor" and then proceeding to add more of it....be it food, cover, water, bedding etc. The thing I realized about my part of Indiana is that the limiting factor is really pressure. In ag country there's food everywhere, up here in the North we deal with small landholdings and field sizes so there's edge everywhere and all that edge provides lots of browse and bedding cover, we have an abundance of water in cover. So in reality, that patchwork of fields, fencerows and woodlots is already great whitetail habitat. Just like everybody on this board, I try to improve my property but what I believe is that these improvements are incremental and not going to pull deer out of already good habitat if it's less pressured. Between mushroom hunting, spring turkey, shooting, atv's/motocross, shooting, paintball, bonfires and beers, and on and on....lots of properties around me get tons of human pressure. While deer are adaptable, I believe that mature deer will always choose less pressured property provided it's offering the basics of food/water/cover. If you have a big hole in the food/water/cover equation then addressing that will provide real results, after that it's just incremental improvements that you have to weigh against the pressure you're creating.
I try to focus now as much on pressure as on incremental habitat improvements and believe that the focus on pressure has improved my hunting more than the latter. So with that mentality, I'm off the property by August 1st except for very occasional camera checks. I treat as much of it as sanctuary as I can while still enjoying it. I also go to extremes with scent control (my place is relatively small) during camera checks and hunting season which I now see as critical, along with the normal focus on approaches, etc. Depending on your situation, you may find that laying off the property earlier and if possible trading off your 3 small sanctuaries into a single larger sanctuary improves your hunting as much or more than your other habitat work.
j-bird
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the support everyone. I still haven't tracked down Mr. Big but as I have posted in my land thread I have put some antlerless deer in the freezer this past weekend. That has helped take the "edge" off my previous concerns. I still think I may need to back off of working on the place nearly year round and allow mother nature to thicken up the woods. I think maybe sometimes we look at things too closely and under a microscope and simply over-react. Hunting with my daughter has helped as well. I seem to have lots of young bucks running around so I have some hope for the future. Things seem to happen for a reason, so maybe this is just one of those things that makes you appreciate the little things a little more. It shouldn't be about the horns and sometimes I just forget that!
g squared 23
Well-Known Member
Try to objectify your findings. Continue your habitat work per the usual this year, and start recording the number of deer and buck sightings per date. Then back off on the improvements next year, and do a date by date comparison to see if less intrusion results in more actual sightings.
I'm watching this thread with interest. I spent more time and money in plots this year, and I feel like I've had really poor daylight activity on our trail cams. I probably can cut out unnecessary visits to the farm, as it's not really crucial to check trail cams or plots every 2 weeks. That's just wasteful.
I'm watching this thread with interest. I spent more time and money in plots this year, and I feel like I've had really poor daylight activity on our trail cams. I probably can cut out unnecessary visits to the farm, as it's not really crucial to check trail cams or plots every 2 weeks. That's just wasteful.
j-bird
Well-Known Member
In my hunting efforts I have seen where the deer are bedding in some areas where they had not in the past so that is a positive and as the woods thicken from the recent logging it should only improve. I think the best thing I can do in the area I had the most concern about it to back off some and give it some time. I have some sawtooth oak to plant come spring and to plant a plot, but other than that I think I can back off and let the area "mature" and hopefully mother nature will do the rest. Sometimes....less is more.
Worriedman
New Member
The two biggest deer I have seen this year, were standing in the parking lot of a Baptist Church in the middle of Jackson, Tennessee. Dogs and kids abound here, and the deer live quite well off the fertilized plantings and a few crop fields.
My farmer cousin in Weakley County knows pretty much were ever doe group on his land, (owned and rented) is, he and his hands are out there pretty much every day. Where you have does, you will have bucks at the right time. I kill deer out of the same stands that my Father did, (I have for 40+ years) and my grand daughter has taken one from "Old Faithful" as well. Deer have to eat, and mine are farmland deer, I manage for cover and food, and try to learn something every day.
As in most things I have read from him, dgallow offers good advice. Know your area, learn how to approach stands, and, you don't see them on the couch...
My farmer cousin in Weakley County knows pretty much were ever doe group on his land, (owned and rented) is, he and his hands are out there pretty much every day. Where you have does, you will have bucks at the right time. I kill deer out of the same stands that my Father did, (I have for 40+ years) and my grand daughter has taken one from "Old Faithful" as well. Deer have to eat, and mine are farmland deer, I manage for cover and food, and try to learn something every day.
As in most things I have read from him, dgallow offers good advice. Know your area, learn how to approach stands, and, you don't see them on the couch...
j-bird
Well-Known Member
Well I will give somewhat of an update.
Our general firearms season has closed and we have roughly a month of hunting left, but I am done. My tags are filled.
I hunted the same stand several times after I made my original post and I learned some interesting things along the way. #1 - I hate deer! the big buck I saw earlier I saw again on a later hunt and the doe led him past my stand 1/2 dozen times and within range. Why didn't I shoot - it was too dark! I actually shot another buck from that stand that I thought was this same buck, but in the end it wasn't - it was about 2 years too young.....at least. #2 - deer will bed in switchgrass. I had several occasions where deer would simply appear - and I later discovered they where bedding in the tall grass not 100 yards form my stand. The activity I saw was outside of the bedding area and I was hunting essentially on top of that bedding area and didn't even know it. #3 - I have a decent crop of young bucks to develop and with some luck the buck I was hunting will make it and maybe I can get him next year. #4 - just because you plant it doesn't mean they will come. I planted a small kill plot and NEVER saw a single deer in it. #5 - cover, cover, cover......in my area cover is king and I simply need to stay out of it and let the deer be. As my habitat thickens I expect to see the cover improve and even more deer activity. I simply need to be not so active as late in the year as I was. It may have cost me that buck, but sometimes the lesson is more valuable.
My "improvements" are not the issue - my level of disturbance is. I need to be more strategic in my efforts. Sometimes we reach a point where your best bet is to do nothing.....in this area in particular I may be at that point.
In the end it was still a successful season and I once again learned more the hard way.
Our general firearms season has closed and we have roughly a month of hunting left, but I am done. My tags are filled.
I hunted the same stand several times after I made my original post and I learned some interesting things along the way. #1 - I hate deer! the big buck I saw earlier I saw again on a later hunt and the doe led him past my stand 1/2 dozen times and within range. Why didn't I shoot - it was too dark! I actually shot another buck from that stand that I thought was this same buck, but in the end it wasn't - it was about 2 years too young.....at least. #2 - deer will bed in switchgrass. I had several occasions where deer would simply appear - and I later discovered they where bedding in the tall grass not 100 yards form my stand. The activity I saw was outside of the bedding area and I was hunting essentially on top of that bedding area and didn't even know it. #3 - I have a decent crop of young bucks to develop and with some luck the buck I was hunting will make it and maybe I can get him next year. #4 - just because you plant it doesn't mean they will come. I planted a small kill plot and NEVER saw a single deer in it. #5 - cover, cover, cover......in my area cover is king and I simply need to stay out of it and let the deer be. As my habitat thickens I expect to see the cover improve and even more deer activity. I simply need to be not so active as late in the year as I was. It may have cost me that buck, but sometimes the lesson is more valuable.
My "improvements" are not the issue - my level of disturbance is. I need to be more strategic in my efforts. Sometimes we reach a point where your best bet is to do nothing.....in this area in particular I may be at that point.
In the end it was still a successful season and I once again learned more the hard way.
Fish
Well-Known Member
Good observations jbird.....
Others have hit on this, but i will iterate it again. All bets are off the table in the rut. My area was pounded opening morning of gun. Orange army out in force, shots ringing out, 4 wheelers puttering, guns being sighted in midday, guys talking out on the road. And on the second morning my hit list buck shows up like he owned the place. All that activity and he was on his feet, err, hooves. Sometimes we give those old bucks too much credit.
Put in place what you can. Youre going to be happy with the results.
Always fun to discover new things, like a bedding area we didnt know about. I observed deer on my property bedding 50 yards off the road in broomsedge and cedars. Who knew? Not me, cause i dont go in there from June -January. Just in case. But from the stand, i watched them nearly every day i hunted in November.
Others have hit on this, but i will iterate it again. All bets are off the table in the rut. My area was pounded opening morning of gun. Orange army out in force, shots ringing out, 4 wheelers puttering, guns being sighted in midday, guys talking out on the road. And on the second morning my hit list buck shows up like he owned the place. All that activity and he was on his feet, err, hooves. Sometimes we give those old bucks too much credit.
Put in place what you can. Youre going to be happy with the results.
Always fun to discover new things, like a bedding area we didnt know about. I observed deer on my property bedding 50 yards off the road in broomsedge and cedars. Who knew? Not me, cause i dont go in there from June -January. Just in case. But from the stand, i watched them nearly every day i hunted in November.
