Food plots minimal success...Help plan moving forward

[SteveK]

Hey guys...so first off I am what you would consider an absentee landowner, being although I have a house and stay on my property, I work on the road 80% of the year currently. In May I got a window to go home where the soil wasn't too wet, with the main plan to get my food plots in. I am relatively new to food plotting and learning as I go with help from friends. These areas I have been working the last few years to get soil right one being an old cattle pasture and the other being an overgrown powerline that had been cut for the first time in about 6-8 years 2 years ago. I began with spraying all the areas with glysophate tilling, fertilizing, and planting (within a week). I planted mostly clover mixes, brassicas, some sorghum, and in areas, high switchgrass for screening and bedding. I took 3 days from work flew to my farm this past weekend only to find a jungle of weeds mostly in my food plots. The sorghum seems to be doing well and the high switchgrass is also doing great. If you look through the weeds in the plot you can see some clover patches, but overall mainly weeds. I am not terribly upset because at least there is cover and I do not have any bare ground where the soil could erode. The problem I think I had is one I was limited on time so as soon as I sprayed the glysophate I tilled with out getting a good kill? If I glysophate, till, fertilize/lime, plant, do I need an absolute kill on the weeds before tilling under? A week or two, dead grasses weeds? I did do soil samples and made sure to utilize the required amounts. Now moving forward, I will not have time to get plots in this year, so I am looking at what I can do next to be successful. Keep in mind these fields are approximately 3-4 high with some weeds currently. One of the fields I will be turning completely into switchgrass. I am thinking I can brushhog this field this fall, get the weeds cut to minimal length and frost seed this winter? The others I plan on attempting to food plot again. What are you guys thoughts on the best route for this? My thought was possibly trying to brushhog this fall, possible frost seed a clover or cover crop for the spring, then glysophate depending if I don't frost seed clover or cover crop (good kill a week or two), till, fertilize, and plant. Or would you guys possibly wait till the spring where I could do move of a throw and mow or throw and grow? I am up for any suggestions for this fall/winter or next spring. I have attached some pictures.

 

[Mennoniteman]

BTW, where are you located at? You can enter your location on your profile page.
I like your idea, brushhog this fall, and then seed Ladino clover, as in, spin on the seed first, then mow the field really low, then spray right away. If you spray Thunder or Imox 4 oz per acre right after mowing low you will get great residual coverage that will give your clover a chance to get established before the weeds come back. Then spray Thunder or Imox 4 oz per acre once a year right after mowing at a time that's convenient for you. If this fall doesn't work for you, frost seed the clover seed in late February and spray in late April, or early May.
FYI, clover starts much easier when ground is tilled, as any thatch prevents soil to seed contact and the seed won't germinate. Also, tillage sets the weeds back much harder then your glyphosate treatment did. To totally terminate weeds in a field with gly the weeds have to be small. And clover starts so slowly that the weeds will be back ling before the clover gets going. If you want a really nice stand of clover, start the clover with a small grain nurse crop, the small grain suppresses the weeds and shades the young clover, making it grow faster. Also, small grain uses mostly different nutrients than clover, so they can both grow well in the same soil, and the small grain eventually terminates itself. I like rye the best for a fall nurse crop, oats the best for spring.
P.S. don't spray Thunder or Imox if you want to use a nurse crop, it will kill it, go back to the glyphosate or tillage before planting if using small grain with clover. My dad never used any herbicide to start clover, just disced the field well in the fall and drilled rye, then frost seeded red clover in early spring. However, I'd advise seeding ladino clover in the fall. This rye clover combo will leave very few weeds to deal with for the first half year. Spray the clover with herbicide after the rye expires.

 

[SteveK]

BTW, where are you located at? You can enter your location on your profile page.
I like your idea, brushhog this fall, and then seed Ladino clover, as in, spin on the seed first, then mow the field really low, then spray right away. If you spray Thunder or Imox 4 oz per acre right after mowing low you will get great residual coverage that will give your clover a chance to get established before the weeds come back. Then spray Thunder or Imox 4 oz per acre once a year right after mowing at a time that's convenient for you. If this fall doesn't work for you, frost seed the clover seed in late February and spray in late April, or early May.
FYI, clover starts much easier when ground is tilled, as any thatch prevents soil to seed contact and the seed won't germinate. Also, tillage sets the weeds back much harder then your glyphosate treatment did. To totally terminate weeds in a field with gly the weeds have to be small. And clover starts so slowly that the weeds will be back ling before the clover gets going. If you want a really nice stand of clover, start the clover with a small grain nurse crop, the small grain suppresses the weeds and shades the young clover, making it grow faster. Also, small grain uses mostly different nutrients than clover, so they can both grow well in the same soil, and the small grain eventually terminates itself. I like rye the best for a fall nurse crop, oats the best for spring.
P.S. don't spray Thunder or Imox if you want to use a nurse crop, it will kill it, go back to the glyphosate or tillage before planting if using small grain with clover. My dad never used any herbicide to start clover, just disced the field well in the fall and drilled rye, then frost seeded red clover in early spring. However, I'd advise seeding ladino clover in the fall. This rye clover combo will leave very few weeds to deal with for the first half year. Spray the clover with herbicide after the rye expires.

Thanks for replying Mennoniteman, being somewhat new to the forum I've seen you are knowledgeable with habitat! I'm from Slippery Rock, Pa, and do quite a bit of hunting around home, but bought 111 acre farm in Highland County Ohio 4 years ago. Do you think when I tilled I just turned up a weedbed and it got the jump on my clover/brassicas plots? So I'm clear, I am going to let everything go until late October/early November before its too wet or soft. Brushhog the weeds, seed the clover, mow really low, and spray the Thunder/Imox. If I am going to use oats or rye along with the clover follow same steps just use the glysophate instead of the Thunder/Imox? Can I use the Imox/Thunder if I plan on planting brassicas next fall or simply use the glysophate? Ideally I would like to till, whether or not I get the time will be the question, but if I do till this fall, do you think I will get enough growth out of the clover and oat/rye to not have any bare dirt where I have to worry about erosion? One reason being a couple of my fields are at the base of a south slope. I just worked over and rerouted some drainage to prevent previously erosion issues last weekend. Ideally I would rather not be doing habitat management in October/November, but sometimes you don't have much option!

 

[THE LLC]

Planting those things in the spring was mistake number one in my opinion. Clovers are better fall planted---even in Ohio. If I were you, if you get over there while it's still warm, I'd spray the crap out of that stuff with glyphosate and kill it before plowing. It has probably already made seed so you'll need to do that some more next year. Kill it now, plow it in Sept, and plant winter wheat and maybe some arrowleaf clover. Next May, spray the weeds before they can make seed. Till it to stimulate the weeds seeds still there sometime in June, then spray that again in late July. Then repeat the wheat in 2020 and in 2021 repeat the spray, plow, spray until you get a really good grip on the weeds. Then start thinking about clovers, chicory, etc.

 

[dogghr]

You are short on free time and short on growing time. And not sure of what implements you have available. First I can’t agree with tillage, simply opens a can of worms that is not needed. It has negative affect on the OM and the natural process of decomposition while exposing the soil to heat, and wind/water erosion. With no ground cover, soil temps are much higher, moisture is lost, and instead of improving the soil composition, it takes it a step back then requires several steps forward.
Once again as I suggested elsewhere, YouTube Ray the soil Guy and watch his stuff. It’s a game changer especially for simple food plotters.
I agree, if you have time by mid Sept, I’d spread a quick grower of WR and RC, spray the weeds with Gly if you want. Then either walk away or mow again but leaving about a foot of stubble. Pray for rain and you willl have a decent foodplot by Oct. Next year apply spray in May to control grasses if you want and keep weeds mowed back. Speaking from experience, pastures can be great in nutrients and ph, but really heavy with the infamous fescues most cattle farmers manage. Good luck. Now you just have to decide of the options, all good ones, given so far.

 

[MarkDarvin]

You are short on free time and short on growing time. And not sure of what implements you have available. First I can’t agree with tillage, simply opens a can of worms that is not needed. It has negative affect on the OM and the natural process of decomposition while exposing the soil to heat, and wind/water erosion. With no ground cover, soil temps are much higher, moisture is lost, and instead of improving the soil composition, it takes it a step back then requires several steps forward.
Once again as I suggested elsewhere, YouTube Ray the soil Guy and watch his stuff. It’s a game changer especially for simple food plotters.
I agree, if you have time by mid Sept, I’d spread a quick grower of WR and RC, spray the weeds with Gly if you want. Then either walk away or mow again but leaving about a foot of stubble. Pray for rain and you willl have a decent foodplot by Oct. Next year apply spray in May to control grasses if you want and keep weeds mowed back. Speaking from experience, pastures can be great in nutrients and ph, but really heavy with the infamous fescues most cattle farmers manage. Good luck. Now you just have to decide of the options, all good ones, given so far.

This.

I'd put a heavy emphasis on reducing the amount of intervention you need to do beings you're limited on time. Spraying requires timing. Mowing, not so much. My vote would be ladino clover, chicory, and 2 bushel/ac rye this fall. That should hold your weeds down to a manageable level. I'd let that rye go into early to mid summer to keep a good choke hold on your weeds. Mow before your rye sets viable seed. Before you mow, I'd broadcast a good rate of sunflower, WGF sorghum, and buckwheat. 6-8 weeks before frost, broadcast a full rate of awnless winter wheat.

By the third year, you should just be down to about ragweed and whatever you planted. You can go any direction from there and shouldn't need to anything other than mow and spread more seed.

 

[Chainsaw]

Great advice already but just to repeat--plant clover in the fall w/chicory and rye. Rye holds the weeds back by taking up space and either reduces weed germination or kills them when they do. The term for rye's affect on weeds is I believe spelled alleopathic tendencies. However rye works it helps one to create a fairly clean clover/chicory plot. Being an annual it itself does not turn into a weed. I have attempted spring clover planting many times and while it can be accomplished with a lot of care it isn't worth the extreme effort it takes at least here.

And most importantly welcome to the forum; Give as much as you can and it will return a heck of a lot to you. Good luck with your plots.

edit--by fall here I mean specifically Aug. 15 to Sept. 10 or so. with Sept. 01 being excellent depending on the year. This morning it is 53 degrees while not technically fall it sure isn't summer either.

 

[X-farmerdan]

Great advice. But, I'm a little confused, Mr. SteveK. You live in Slippery Rock, PA where you hunt a lot and you own land in in Highland County, OH. In May you got home - Slippery Rock? And that's where your food plots your concerned about are located? Or, in Ohio? And you say, "...moving forward, I will not have time to get plots in this year." But you do have time to bush hog?
My sense is you think you have a failure on your hands, but I'm not ready to nod my head in agreement. It may be true, but don't give up just yet. First, tell me where these things are, PA or OH. If it's about growing days, you have time. If it's about personal time, I get it, but I don't because if you have time to bush hog, then you have time for some resurrection! If you see clover in one of the foodplots and that's what you were hoping for, let's work on that.

 

[Mennoniteman]

(So I'm clear, I am going to let everything go until late October/early November) Sorry Steve, but this is not a good idea, late October early November is a bad time of year to do planting, mowing or spraying in PA or Ohio. All the weeds are dead or dormant so the mowing and spray are wasted effort. The seed will germinate but can't grow because of the frost, and in that condition probably won't survive until spring and therefore the seed will be wasted as well. Frost seeding clover is done in early spring when the freezing is winding down and the clover has a chance to establish. I'd suggest either do your farming before mid-September or wait until spring.

 

[SteveK]

Sorry for the confusion fellas, I am from Pennsylvania first off, my farm where all this habitat work is being done is in southern Ohio, and I work on the road doing construction currently in California. My time off I usually schedule around habitat work and during the project it could be a week or a lot of times I fly in on a Thursday work through sunday. I just took the weekend two weeks ago to get some culverts in and reroute some run-off water that was eroding my back field. That is when I checked my plots and saw all the weeds, which I had a feeling would be as they were. I have to try and plan my days off until the end of this project which usually isn't too terribly tough. Once my project is over (most likely February) I will take off a few months and be at my farm in Ohio. Until then my time at the farm will be sparse. I will not be able to get there in September due to an elk hunt in British Columbia from the 8th-18th, I save most of my days for. I will potentially be able to get there mid-late October, but from what I am gathering it might be too late at that point for any mowing. I do have a friend to help, so I may still be able to get some things done. I have all the implements for a tractor besides a till I guess you could say. So I think I will have my friend go over mid September and broadcast the clover/rye, brushhog, and spray? That should at a minimum give me a first step for next year? Thanks for all the great advice, really appreciate the knowledge and help.

 

[Jason Broom]

Have your friend spray a 41% glyphosate solution at 2 quarts per acre, with either 2-4D or AMS (Ammonium sulfate) as a surfactant (helps wet stuff stick to leaves). If he can spray it in the next week or so, give it 10-14 days, broadcast 75# winter rye or triticale, 10# medium red clover, 5# of a white clover, and a pound of chicory, per acre. Broadcast the seed BEFORE mowing. A rotary mower is good, but if you have a flail mower, it might be even better. Lastly, cultipack what you sprayed and mowed down on top of the seed. Do these last steps before a likely rain event and you'll have a good plot to attract deer this fall/winter/spring.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[Mennoniteman]

Have your friend spray a 41% glyphosate solution at 2 quarts per acre, with either 2-4D or AMS (Ammonium sulfate) as a surfactant (helps wet stuff stick to leaves). If he can spray it in the next week or so, give it 10-14 days, broadcast 75# winter rye or triticale, 10# medium red clover, 5# of a white clover, and a pound of chicory, per acre. Broadcast the seed BEFORE mowing. A rotary mower is good, but if you have a flail mower, it might be even better. Lastly, cultipack what you sprayed and mowed down on top of the seed. Do these last steps before a likely rain event and you'll have a good plot to attract deer this fall/winter/spring.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

2-4D is not a surfactant, it's a broadleaf herbicide. You should always use a surfactant like crop oil or "Hot MES" at 16 oz. per 25 gallons of water when spraying glyposate. If you have some weeds that glyphosate doen'st kill you can also mix 2,4-D with the glyphosate, but it needs to be 2,4-D ester, which is more expensive. 2,4-D amine is cheaper and has less wind drift but should not be tank mixed with anything else.

 

[John Ray]

Most oil adjuvants (COC) antagonize glyphosate - See #6.Most herbicides applied with glyphosate are lipophilic (oil soluble).These include Group 1, 2, 4, 5, 14, 15, and 27 herbicides (See X1).Oil adjuvants (COC and MSO) greatly enhance oil soluble herbicidesbut antagonize glyphosate. NIS + AMS enhance glyphosatephytotoxicity more than other additives, are less effective with oilsoluble herbicides, and will only partially overcome oil adjuvantantagonism of glyphosate. MSO based ‘high surfactant oilconcentrate’ adjuvants (HSMOC-see page 130) contain a higherconcentration of surfactant than COC and MSO and enhance oilsoluble herbicides without decreasing glyphosate activity. MostCOC/petroleum based ‘high surfactant oil concentrate’ (HSPOC)adjuvants are inferior to HSMOC adjuvants and usually do notperform differently than common COC or petroleum oil adjuvants.
https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/weeds/weed-control-guides/nd-weed-control-guide-1/wcg-files/a4-glyt

 

[jsasker007]

^^^^^^Spend some time in school by chance? So the short and helpful answer is? Talking over someone head doesn't really help.

 

[John Ray]

No, actually I'm a janitor. This stuff ain't rocket science......but it is science. I suggest we all do a little more reading and a little less relying on hearsay. The whole document is well worthy of the time it takes to read it. That is not me talking-it's a cut and paste so you don't take my word for it
Short answer is "crop oil" takes a few different forms and most decrease the effectiveness of most glyphosate formulations.
https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/weeds/weed-control-guides/nd-weed-control-guide-1

 

[MarkDarvin]

No, actually I'm a janitor. This stuff ain't rocket science......but it is science. I suggest we all do a little more reading and a little less relying on hearsay. The whole document is well worthy of the time it takes to read it. That is not me talking-it's a cut and paste so you don't take my word for it
Short answer is "crop oil" takes a few different forms and most decrease the effectiveness of most glyphosate formulations.
https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/weeds/weed-control-guides/nd-weed-control-guide-1

It's an absence of science.

 

[John Ray]

fake news and alternate facts I guess. Hope you are being facetious

 

[X-farmerdan]

It's an absence of science.

Is there something you want to discuss?

 

[MarkDarvin]

Is there something you want to discuss?

I've been on an anti-spray kick lately. Not for health reasons or any of the common agendas. We're hitting the effectiveness wall due to a lack of science. That's my main point.

My feelings evolve on this each day. Today, I'd go as far as saying gly is a fantastic product for the right purpose. What it is not, is a maintenance product or substitute for diversity. I keep a keen eye out for the number of threads on the internet where people have problems with Buddy Heaters, and unkillable weeds.

No disrespect to the OP or anyone else. I just think we're all studying the wrong thing and it keeps blowing up in our faces. An application of the biosciences would eliminate the need to chemically kill all-powerful weeds.

 

[X-farmerdan]

I've been on an anti-spray kick lately. Not for health reasons or any of the common agendas. We're hitting the effectiveness wall due to a lack of science. That's my main point.

My feelings evolve on this each day. Today, I'd go as far as saying gly is a fantastic product for the right purpose. What it is not, is a maintenance product or substitute for diversity. I keep a keen eye out for the number of threads on the internet where people have problems with Buddy Heaters, and unkillable weeds.

No disrespect to the OP or anyone else. I just think we're all studying the wrong thing and it keeps blowing up in our faces. An application of the biosciences would eliminate the need to chemically kill all-powerful weeds.

Fair enough.