ANOTHER soil test thread....

[Brian]

Are you discing, roto-tilling or (please, no) plowing? Your organic matter numbers are pretty low and that would be the first thing I would address. Winter rye during the cold season and either buckwheat or sunhemp during the warm season would help get you back on track.

The consistent numbers from the "Boone" plot suggest you're doing well and sampling correctly, but that makes the numbers for "NOLAD" even more confusing. I would be inclined to test that plot again to see if those readings are misleading. If they come back the same, you desperately need to increase the OM in that plot.

I've disced in the past but I'm moving to "thrown-n-mow" this year to help with the OM. Unfortunately, Mississippi State just started testing for OM, so I don't know where I started but prior to 2014 this was a pine plantation, so the OM numbers aren't shocking to me. I've been growing a mix of rye, wheat and clover for the last five years and let summer weeds take over as the clover faded. I actually already have Sunn Hemp on my radar for next summer.

The crazy numbers in "NOLAD" (that would be the No Ladies food plot... which I keep telling my daughters they can't hunt) aren't totally surpising- the plot is located near a large creek that flooded last year and dumped a pretty good layer of sand and silt. I'm sure that OM will always be a struggle in that plot, with the occasional flooding making soil-building even more difficult.​

 

[Brian]

Soil sampling is a real hit and miss proposition. Truth be known, every square yard of a field can produce different results. Did you control depth of sampling? For example, in 2014 did you test 4 inches deep and in 2019 did you go deeper? Any ideas? Do you use a soil tube or a shovel? In your sample, are you including the organic material at and on the soil surface, or, do you shove that aside before you container your sample?

I tried to be pretty methodical pulling soil samples this year... but for the life of me I can't tell you how I did it in 2014. Both this year and in 2017 I used a turned over a shovel full of dirt then sliced out a plug of dirt to about 6" depth and discarding the organic material from the surface.

 

[Drycreek]

At the risk of highjacking, what numbers should OM be ? If his are low, mine really suck, but most of my plots turn out pretty well. What determines the numbers you should strive for ?

 

[X-farmerdan]

At the risk of highjacking, what numbers should OM be ? If his are low, mine really suck, but most of my plots turn out pretty well. What determines the numbers you should strive for ?

Does this dress make me look fat? Ummmm.
What determines the number you should strive for? Ummmm.

I'm a "flat earth-er." More on that in a moment.

No doubt, high levels of organic matter are an extreme positive for crop growth. Organic matter holds water and nutrients, as opposed to both of those leaching thru the soil. I'm going to assert, and you can chase the numbers to verify if you wish. The best crop ground, selling for $7,000 an acre and up is in the midwest - and in the rain forests around the world. The rich topsoil, full of organic matter at rates of 15% to 20% is there because of things like floods and glaciers and other eons long events.

Now today, there's a fervor, to my mind - almost religious in nature - to build organic matter in soils - everywhere. Yes, a noble goal. Yet its extremely difficult. Do the math. I won't, but its daunting, the effort required. To me, my organic matter is what it is - unless I dedicate much of my efforts to it. I'm a flat earth-er. I have neither the time nor the zeal. Not to say I am unaware or will do anything to diminish my OM. I test for it and do what I can within reason to boost it in a reasonable allocation of resources.

If you have 1%, shoot for 2%.

And this is not to diminish the efforts of those of you who have accomplished the mission. Hat's off to you, but it wasn't easy or cheap, was it?

 

[Drycreek]

Does this dress make me look fat? Ummmm.
What determines the number you should strive for? Ummmm.

I'm a "flat earth-er." More on that in a moment.

No doubt, high levels of organic matter are an extreme positive for crop growth. Organic matter holds water and nutrients, as opposed to both of those leaching thru the soil. I'm going to assert, and you can chase the numbers to verify if you wish. The best crop ground, selling for $7,000 an acre and up is in the midwest - and in the rain forests around the world. The rich topsoil, full of organic matter at rates of 15% to 20% is there because of things like floods and glaciers and other eons long events.

Now today, there's a fervor, to my mind - almost religious in nature - to build organic matter in soils - everywhere. Yes, a noble goal. Yet its extremely difficult. Do the math. I won't, but its daunting, the effort required. To me, my organic matter is what it is - unless I dedicate much of my efforts to it. I'm a flat earth-er. I have neither the time nor the zeal. Not to say I am unaware or will do anything to diminish my OM. I test for it and do what I can within reason to boost it in a reasonable allocation of resources.

If you have 1%, shoot for 2%.

And this is not to diminish the efforts of those of you who have accomplished the mission. Hat's off to you, but it wasn't easy or cheap, was it?

Sounds sensible to me. In my mind, it would seem that each crop, or even weeds, etc. would be organic matter if returned to the soil, so I think I’ll just keep on keeping on. Thanks X !

 

[Jason Broom]

I have offered this thought in the past, but raising organic matter in your soil is almost like the readings you get from a seismograph...every time you increase the number by one-tenth, you are increasing the magnitude ten-fold. Increasing your OM percentage from 1.7 to 1.8 is substantial and very much worth the effort. It takes a lot of work and planning and even some luck, but the net result in what you can then grow on that soil is dramatic. A loss of OM could definitely explain the drop in CEC; these two numbers are almost always in lock-step on a property.

 

[Brian]

I wanted to post a follow-up on this old thread. My original 2017 and 2019 soil test result and current results are shown below; after 6 years of trying to improve my soil in the Bluff plot by using throw-and-mow exclusively with no discing, my OM readings have only increased from 2.2 to 2.4. pH is the same as in 2019 (6.2) and CEC has FALLEN from 10.9 in 2017 and 7.3 in 2019 to 5.7 now.

To say that I'm frustrated would be an understatement.....

I know I don't have good soil, but is there anything else I can do to try and increase organic matter?

EDIT: If you look at both charts you will see that Mississippi State reports in lbs/ac while the commercial lab report is in ppm (which is generally 1/2 of lbs/ac)

 

[MarkDarvin]

I wanted to post a follow-up on this old thread. My original 2017 and 2019 soil test result and current results are shown below; after 6 years of trying to improve my soil in the Bluff plot by using throw-and-mow exclusively with no discing, my OM readings have only increased from 2.2 to 2.4. pH is the same as in 2019 (6.2) and CEC has FALLEN from 10.9 in 2017 and 7.3 in 2019 to 5.7 now.

To say that I'm frustrated would be an understatement.....

I know I don't have good soil, but is there anything else I can do to try and increase organic matter?

EDIT: If you look at both charts you will see that Mississippi State reports in lbs/ac while the commercial lab report is in ppm (which is generally 1/2 of lbs/ac)

Share more about what else you’re doing? Are you spraying? Have low biomass crops? Single species crops? Are you fertilizing?

The biggest question should be, is your soil performing any better than 8 years ago?


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[victory]

Brian i have .9 OM soil so I understand your plight. My mixture this year is 20 pounds of a mix of balsana ysc med red Alfalfa and chickory along 5 bushel rye per acre broadcasted and then crimped. Next year i will be adding plantain. Here is last year crimped field when no rye germinated and the previous year when 250 pounds of rye germinated

 

[Brian]

Share more about what else you’re doing? Are you spraying? Have low biomass crops? Single species crops? Are you fertilizing?

The biggest question should be, is your soil performing any better than 8 years ago?


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My standard mix is 100# wheat or rye and 5# daikon radish per acre plus a mix of crimson and arrowleaf clover. I let my plots go fallow over the summer and its so thick by the end of the summer that I have to cut in late August so that I can plant in mid-October. I'm still getting a good thatch later for throw-n-mow when I plant.

As I said, I really thought my OM numbers would have moved than .2! I've only disced once in the last eight years and that was little more than scratching the surface because I didn't have any thatch to cover the seed.

 

[victory]

Brian your OM is only .2 now? I thought .9 was bad. Your must be blow sand. There is a county by county soil book that is available at soil conservation offices or youncan look it online. I'm curious if you accessed this information?

 

[Brian]

Sorry if I was unclear! It has only improved .2 - from 2.2 to 2.4 - after almost ten years of throw-n-mow.

 

[MarkDarvin]

My standard mix is 100# wheat or rye and 5# daikon radish per acre plus a mix of crimson and arrowleaf clover. I let my plots go fallow over the summer and its so thick by the end of the summer that I have to cut in late August so that I can plant in mid-October. I'm still getting a good thatch later for throw-n-mow when I plant.

As I said, I really thought my OM numbers would have moved than .2! I've only disced once in the last eight years and that was little more than scratching the surface because I didn't have any thatch to cover the seed.

What’s growing when it goes fallow and gets bushy? And where are you located?


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[victory]

Brian are you located in sw michigan? I am trying to get a price on a 4 foot cultipacker that is made in Detroit great price/quality. I have a 4 foot crimper from the same guy. I really believe that your OM would rise faster with either crimper or cultipacker than mowing. Yoder curious on your thoughts.

 

[Brian]

Brian are you located in sw michigan?

SW Mississippi

 

[Brian]

What’s growing when it goes fallow and gets bushy?

Native grasses and “yankee weed” (dog fennel) mostly with some forbs in the spring (but they’re choked out by the grasses pretty quickly). The grass and weeds are chest high by august and I won’t walk through the plot because it’s full of water moccasins hunting field mice. There’s also a good bit horse nettle that I’ve been trying to deal with - but it does have the benefit of being a decent nutrient scavenger.

 

[RGrizzzz]

The CEC differences are curious to me, but I'm no soil scientist. How are you taking the soil samples? Are you using a shovel or a proper soil samples tool? Taking many samples across the field?

 

[Brian]

The CEC differences are curious to me, but I'm no soil scientist. How are you taking the soil samples? Are you using a shovel or a proper soil samples tool? Taking many samples across the field?

Using a soil probe, always between 4-6” deep and with about 12 separate samples spread across a relatively small 1/2 acre plot.

 

[yoderjac]

Sorry if I was unclear! It has only improved .2 - from 2.2 to 2.4 - after almost ten years of throw-n-mow.

Brian,

Sometimes our expectations are unrealistic. When it comes to OM, it takes time. If your plot is 1/2 acre, you have added 10 tons of OM to your plot between those tests. High quality farming soils are about 3% - 6% OM. Many of us are starting with marginal soils. Tenths of a percent of increased OM while at the same time providing food for deer is a significant accomplishment! Keep up the good work.

Here is a good NRCS article on soil OM.

 

[victory]

Yoder so to be clear Brian's OM from 2 to 2.2 added 10 tons to his half acre? That's a lot of duff.