Another reason to not plant non-native species

[catscratch]

My post was on the sawtooth oak. I was specific and I have invested a good deal of time researching them.

I was not worried when I made the decision because I did read up first. Just is a surprise to hear some say no to the sawtooth because is not native.

I do agree there are plants/trees/shrubs I don't need to plant for me or the fact that my neighbor might be impacted.

Wayne

A couple of days ago I was at my dad's place looking around at the various habitat improvements he's done in the last 30yrs. He made the comment that if he knew then, what he knows know, that he would have planted a hell of a lot more sawtooth. In our part of the country they don't seem to spread. We have trees that have been producing acorns for 10 yrs and don't have a single tree growing that we didn't plant.

With that said, I have no guarantee that they don't carry some disease.

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[Doctorbrady]

Grapevine, Invasive species can form mono cultures, and not only take over cultivated areas, but more likely fallow areas or native plantings. If you have ever seen a multi floral rose thicket like the ones I used to hunt in West Virginia you could get a good picture of that...acres and acres of impenetrable thorn bushes. Autumn olive can create mono cultures if thick shrubbery as well. Johnson grass is another good example. There are hundreds more. What may be good in small quantities is terrible if it crowds out diversity. Worse yet, neighbors for miles around may pay for another's bad decision. However, there are also many non-natives that are not invasive, and can be a benefit to a habitat plan.

 

[jlane35]

MFR is insane. My cousins grandfather planted that on there property in NY a long time ago. The entire area is covered with it. And by area I mean the entire town. It makes for great rabbit and grouse cover but that is the only understory species.

They logged there property a few years ago and its impenetrable now. No regeneration from anything else.

 

[Grapevine]

Grapevine, Invasive species can form mono cultures, and not only take over cultivated areas, but more likely fallow areas or native plantings. If you have ever seen a multi floral rose thicket like the ones I used to hunt in West Virginia you could get a good picture of that...acres and acres of impenetrable thorn bushes. Autumn olive can create mono cultures if thick shrubbery as well. Johnson grass is another good example. There are hundreds more. What may be good in small quantities is terrible if it crowds out diversity. Worse yet, neighbors for miles around may pay for another's bad decision. However, there are also many non-natives that are not invasive, and can be a benefit to a habitat plan.

Yeah, I understand all the evils of invasives. But let me get this straight - you are saying that woody shrubs like multiflora rose, autumn olive, and I assume bush honeysuckle as well can take over cultivated land ????? Really??? I understand the Johnsongrass challenge, but are you really lumping them all together? I'll stop here for now but I also have questions on monocultures and what that really means and then we can tackle what it means to be a good neighbor. Merry Christmas everyone.

 

[Doctorbrady]

Yes, they can essentially become a monoculture, meaning they are the overwhelming dominate species in an area. They essentially out compete all the competition. There was a post on the old QDMA site years ago from Lickcreek or Geo, I believe, that showed acres of AO thicket that had become a barren wasteland for deer as a result. I have personally seen acres of MFR that were impenetrable to people, and even deer. I hunt areas now with some MFR and AO, but neither are dominate. However, the woods along my house is choked with Japanese honeysuckle, MFR, and gooseberry (a native) in any area open to sunlight. Nothing like the spots I saw out East, but less than ideal habitat. Pretty much all wildlife likes diversity in cover, and monocultures drown this out.
As far as "cultivated" land goes, if you keep it tilled and planted, these woody species will not be a problem obviously. However, if you are talking about improving habitat in areas that won't be INTENSIVELY managed with burns, spraying, etc., then these invasive species could be a huge problem over the years.

 

[wbpdeer]

MFR, AO, Johnson Grass, Privet, Bush Honeysuckle, Serica, and Kudzu are part of the evil choices IMO.

What other choices would become invasive and extremely hard to eliminate? Some newcomers might benefit from ID ing the list.

Wayne

 

[Fish]

Pawlonia (tree of heaven?) is another disaster. Tough to kill too.
I really like sterile Miscanthus Giganteus for road screening under power lines. Miscanthus Sinensis is another matter. It has escaped my landscaping and i am finding more and more clumps of it in open woodland locations on the Home 10.
The "bradford pear" is also a problem. But it dies easily with herbicides.

 

[FTG-05]

Tree of Heaven is Ailanthus Altissima. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ailanthus_altissima

God awful tree, I hate it!

 

[TreeDaddy]

I am blessed with fire ants and feral hogs......

bill

 

[Grapevine]

Grapevine, Invasive species can form mono cultures, and not only take over cultivated areas, but more likely fallow areas or native plantings. If you have ever seen a multi floral rose thicket like the ones I used to hunt in West Virginia you could get a good picture of that...acres and acres of impenetrable thorn bushes. Autumn olive can create mono cultures if thick shrubbery as well. Johnson grass is another good example. There are hundreds more. What may be good in small quantities is terrible if it crowds out diversity. Worse yet, neighbors for miles around may pay for another's bad decision. However, there are also many non-natives that are not invasive, and can be a benefit to a habitat plan.

Well, I'm glad we can agree that cultivated lands are at no risk to woody shrub invasives like AO, MFR and Bush Honeysuckle. Before I go any further, let me first say I do not advocate planting any of the above mentioned plants. But at least in PA they are ubiquitous. They grow along every road, fence row, uncared-for corner of land. tree lines from one end of the state to the other. You do not have to plant them. They will eventually be there. I'm just trying to get a handle on what is a reasonable management plan for them. Now let's discuss monocultures. What constitutes a monoculture? Are there good monocultures and bad monocultures? Can a monoculture be neutral? How large an area must be involved before we call an area a monoculture? I have a 2 acre patch of red maple that grew up as a pasture was reverting. It certainly meets the "barren wasteland for deer" definition that you described. Is that a monoculture? Is it good, bad, or neutral? What about black locust? Is that an invasive? It certainly forms monocultures - or are they thickets? What's the difference between a thicket and a monoculture? I have hunted in impenetrable thickets (or are they monocultures/) of MFR as well as green briar. Is one good and the other bad? What do we mean when we describe a diverse habitat? Does it mean for any given acre you can only have so much of any given species? Or is diverse habitat a bigger picture concept? Is 2 acres of pole stage red maple OK in a 100 acre management plan? Is 2 acres of bush honeysuckle OK in a 100 acre management plan? Or is 2 acres of anything never a good idea? Well, I think that's enough for now. We still have to talk about what it means to be a bad neighbor when it comes to habitat management and finally we will discuss sawtooth oak as a foreign invader.

 

[Doctorbrady]

So many questions ! I am not sure by your posts if you are looking for answers, discussion, or debate. If you are truly looking for answers then I am sure you will get plenty of responses. A monoculture is any planting (natural or man made) that involves a single species. In practical terms that could be a crop of corn or a planting of pine trees for timber harvest. Their is no specified size that I am aware of that qualifies an area as a monoculture. Monocultures have their place, and can be beneficial in some instances. However, for habitat purposes, most animals prefer diversity. Deer definitely prefer varieties of habitat, and transitional ecosystems.
Natives can develop monocultures, but are less apt to outcompete all other native species than imported species are. Even locusts (which are pervasive if not invasive) in my area only grow in areas where oaks don't already dominate. They are almost always interspersed with Osage in regenerating woodlands, but over time will be overshadowed by oaks and hickories in my area.
I have small areas (less than an acre) dominated by blackberries, which can provide good cover for wildlife, but if not controlled with burning or mowing would take over and become less attractive to deer over time.
Invasives are invasive for a reason. They either have means of out reproducing (AO berries) or out growing ( Japanese Honeysuckle) or both (Johnson grass). Eventually they smother out competitors.
Herbaceous invasives CAN be a problem in cultivated fields as well, but are a bigger problem for those trying to put on no till crops rather than old fashioned cultivation. With either method, however, invasives like pigweed and JG are still problematic, and a billion dollar herbicide market exists to help contain them.
In regards to being a good neighbor...I've heard it said that a Man's character is what he does when no one is looking. You can plant whatever you like for the most part. Some states have actually passed laws to keep some invasives from being planted because they don't trust us to have character. Just remember that what you plant could have a negative effect on an area greater than your own property and for much longer than you will be around. Every year I try to keep my purple thistle at bay, not because it hurts my place much, but because it worries the 800 acre cattle farmer behind me so much when he sees it in my fallow areas. On the other side of the coin, I depend upon him to help manage the deer herd wisely that share our properties. That's how we work together as "good neighbors".
Also, what is invasive in one area of the country may not be a problem in other areas. The kudzu that dominates areas of the south, barely exists here. While southerners can't imagine dealing with maple thickets.

 

[Fish]

Native species can be considered invasive. Ive got some bottom ground plugged up with spicebush. I like spicebush, but i dont like it that much. Conditions just favor it there. But you wont find spicebush invading a west facing slope, or fallow field. It is particular where it chooses to grow.
If i want a monoculture of green ash, then i would be happy with my stand on 3 acres of low ground. But for whitetails, it's next to worthless.
On that same property, MFR grows on the west facing slope and the bottom ground and the fallow areas. Its all about managing your land for your desired outcome.
I want bottomland oaks, so i cut out some of the spicebush, etc.....

I planted 1 bush honeysuckle plant a decade ago not knowing any better. I have since killed that plant and go after its offspring on my property. And yes, i am fearful that i have introduced it to my neighbors woodlot. If his woodlot already had bush honey growing, then no real guilt on my part. But it doesnt. Thats a bad neighbor. Innocent enough. But guilty as charged.

 

[Dennis Duffy]

I have a field I am starting with. it sits right up against a clear cut that i own. I want to make it thick and desirable for the deer. I don't want it to take a long time. What would some of you suggest that will grow fast and thick for cover. I also want to creat natural browse as well. I plan on planting some pods of pines as well as fruit trees in certain areas! I am just having a hard time figuring out what grows fast and is good bedding cover that the deer like.

 

[Doctorbrady]

Native dogwoods and spice bush are good options for starters. Add some red cedar for long term effect.

 

[Native Hunter]

I have a field I am starting with. it sits right up against a clear cut that i own. I want to make it thick and desirable for the deer. I don't want it to take a long time. What would some of you suggest that will grow fast and thick for cover. I also want to creat natural browse as well. I plan on planting some pods of pines as well as fruit trees in certain areas! I am just having a hard time figuring out what grows fast and is good bedding cover that the deer like.

Dennis, you might be in a place where some good stuff comes up from the seed bank. I would certainly give it a try and see what you get. You could go ahead and start planting some things that you know you want, but at the same time see what comes back from the ground. Lots of places in KY will have elderberry, sumac, blackberry, cedar, dogwoods, persimmon, serviceberry, etc. come up, and if some undesirables do come up, you can spot spray them and leave the good species.

IMHO, no habitat can top an old grown up field with lots of different kinds of bushes, forbs, grasses and trees. You get a combination of diverse food and cover in the same basket of goods - all equaling prime deer habitat. You can do maintenance in the spring each year to keep it in a desirable successional stage and keep something like that going for a long time - ending up with a savannah type setting with the spread out climax trees that you do decide to leave, with forbs and bushes still getting enough sunlight to fill in the open spaces with good cover and food. The deer love habitat like that.

If your field has something like fescue, you might have to clear that out first, but once you do, the growing begins, and nothing you plant with a shovel can keep up with what comes up on its own (you said you wanted something fast - nothing will be faster).

Read this:

https://www.mdwfp.com/media/56089/oldfield_qw.pdf

 

[Dennis Duffy]

Thanks for

Dennis, you might be in a place where some good stuff comes up from the seed bank. I would certainly give it a try and see what you get. You could go ahead and start planting some things that you know you want, but at the same time see what comes back from the ground. Lots of places in KY will have elderberry, sumac, blackberry, cedar, dogwoods, persimmon, serviceberry, etc. come up, and if some undesirables do come up, you can spot spray them and leave the good species.

IMHO, no habitat can top an old grown up field with lots of different kinds of bushes, forbs, grasses and trees. You get a combination of diverse food and cover in the same basket of goods - all equaling prime deer habitat. You can do maintenance in the spring each year to keep it in a desirable successional stage and keep something like that going for a long time - ending up with a savannah type setting with the spread out climax trees that you do decide to leave, with forbs and bushes still getting enough sunlight to fill in the open spaces with good cover and food. The deer love habitat like that.

If your field has something like fescue, you might have to clear that out first, but once you do, the growing begins, and nothing you plant with a shovel can keep up with what comes up on its own (you said you wanted something fast - nothing will be faster).

Read this:

https://www.mdwfp.com/media/56089/oldfield_qw.pdf

I forgot to mention that this field is not on my farm in KY. but at my home in PA. The field has been farmed for the last 12 years or so. before that it was an old pasture. Last year it was soybeans. The farmer planted rye in it this winter for a cover crop. I am going to let him harvest the rye and then he is not going to be farming it anymore as i told him i want to turn it into Deer habitat. I guess i should have said this in the beginning. Do you think with what i just said and with the field being farmed for the last 12 hers or so that letting it just grow is still the way to go? Or does that change things?

 

[Native Hunter]

Thanks for
I forgot to mention that this field is not on my farm in KY. but at my home in PA. The field has been farmed for the last 12 years or so. before that it was an old pasture. Last year it was soybeans. The farmer planted rye in it this winter for a cover crop. I am going to let him harvest the rye and then he is not going to be farming it anymore as i told him i want to turn it into Deer habitat. I guess i should have said this in the beginning. Do you think with what i just said and with the field being farmed for the last 12 hers or so that letting it just grow is still the way to go? Or does that change things?

It might change things some, but you won't know without giving it a try. There is a good chance that there will still be a lot of native plants come up.

If the seedbank has been somewhat exhausted of grasses and forbs, you could introduce a mixture of desirable NWSGs and forbs to help fill in the open spots. If you had sumacs, blackberry, etc., I doubt that the farming killed all the roots - especially with no till methods.

My neighbor has a field that has been in fescue for 60+ years, and its mowed twice a year. I still see persimmon sprouts, blackberry, and some perennial weeds coming from roots every year in his field - especially just before he does his fall mowing.

On the flip side, you could also have some bad stuff pop up - like Johnson Grass, etc.... If that's the case, you can adjust your plans....

 

[lakngolf]

I have a field I am starting with. it sits right up against a clear cut that i own. I want to make it thick and desirable for the deer. I don't want it to take a long time. What would some of you suggest that will grow fast and thick for cover. I also want to create natural browse as well. I plan on planting some pods of pines as well as fruit trees in certain areas! I am just having a hard time figuring out what grows fast and is good bedding cover that the deer like.

Basically that is what I have been trying to do with the old pastures at Bull Pen and Mandy Hollow. Started Bull Pen in 2006 so it is progressing nicely, but only a three years into transformation of Mandy. I have planted Sawtooth Oak, Pear trees, some pines and left fields to do what they will around the trees. My issues are Fescue and Dog Fennel and not sure what new steps I will take. Sounds like you are starting with a cleaner field than was my pastureland.

A couple of comparison pictures, Sept 2015 compared to the start of the thread about 2011

Bull Pen Then:

Bull Pen Now: (Sept 2015)


Mandy Hollow Then:

Mandy Hollow Now:


Mandy comparison not as effective. The before picture was from a tall shooting house that is no longer there, and the after picture is from atop my tractor. Could not get the same perspective.

 

[Dennis Duffy]

Pretty cool before and after pics......thanks for the info guys! I appreciate it! Many more questions to come I am sure!! Lol! Thanks Again!

 

[Native Hunter]

Dennis, in the pictures below, you are looking at totally natural regeneration other than some of the trees and shrubs that I planted. All of these spots were mowed once a year in the spring (along with a little chainsaw work) for the last few years to set back succession of unwanted plants and encourage forb growth.