.243 Win or 6.5 Creedmoor?

Here is something to look at that I found interesting many years ago..... I would never have thought that they were this close if I hadn't looked it up myself. I was figuring that the .45-70 would have trumped the .243 with it's heavier, slower bullet by a long shot at the muzzle and out to 100yds. We sell more 300gr ammunition at my shop for the .45-70 than we do 405gr. Don't know why, but I guess people that own them are scared of the recoil. I'm not saying to buy a .45-70, I'm just saying that people often underestimate the .243's energy and work it can do on deer, as long as you keep it at the right distance with a proper bullet. I prefer a bonded bullet like the Nosler Accubond, Hornady Interbond, Federal Fusion, Winchester Power Point, Remington Core-Lokt, etc for proper performance on deer, hogs, and bear. We used to have a lease with hogs and one of the members shot every hog with a .243, the biggest weighing 325lb field dressed and most dropped, with a few running less than 50yds. The big one never took a step. I think it is an amazing round and the 6.5 Creedmoor is just a fashion trend that will more than likely end up sitting in most guys safes, once the newness wears off.

.243 Win- 2960fps (Federal 100gr Sierra GameKing BTSP)
Muzzle Energy- 1945 ft/lb
100yds- 1669 ft/lb
200yds- 1425 ft/lb
300yds- 1210 ft/lb
400yd- 1021 ft/lb

.45-70 Govt- 1850fps (Federal Power Shok 300gr JSP)
Muzzle Energy- 2280
100yds- 1730 ft/lb
200yds- 1305 ft/lb
300yds- 1001 ft/lb
400yds- 802 ft/lb

The bullets are very similar in energy from the muzzle to 300yds and then the .243 takes over 400yds. Now, we are talking a smidge over 1000fps difference in velocity at the muzzle and 200gr difference in bullet weight. The .45-70 has an advantage with the large meplat on the front of the bullet to throw some shock into the system of the animal and really create a large wound channel. The .45-70 bullet also has a little ass to carry down range and still provide a wallop when it gets there. The .243 depends on speed and bullet design to do the work, but it is still effective on the job at hand.
 
DocHolladay said:
Here is something to look at that I found interesting many years ago..... I would never have thought that they were this close if I hadn't looked it up myself. I was figuring that the .45-70 would have trumped the .243 with it's heavier, slower bullet by a long shot at the muzzle and out to 100yds. We sell more 300gr ammunition at my shop for the .45-70 than we do 405gr. Don't know why, but I guess people that own them are scared of the recoil. I'm not saying to buy a .45-70, I'm just saying that people often underestimate the .243's energy and work it can do on deer, as long as you keep it at the right distance with a proper bullet. I prefer a bonded bullet like the Nosler Accubond, Hornady Interbond, Federal Fusion, Winchester Power Point, Remington Core-Lokt, etc for proper performance on deer, hogs, and bear. We used to have a lease with hogs and one of the members shot every hog with a .243, the biggest weighing 325lb field dressed and most dropped, with a few running less than 50yds. The big one never took a step. I think it is an amazing round and the 6.5 Creedmoor is just a fashion trend that will more than likely end up sitting in most guys safes, once the newness wears off.

.243 Win- 2960fps (Federal 100gr Sierra GameKing BTSP)
Muzzle Energy- 1945 ft/lb
100yds- 1669 ft/lb
200yds- 1425 ft/lb
300yds- 1210 ft/lb
400yd- 1021 ft/lb

.45-70 Govt- 1850fps (Federal Power Shok 300gr JSP)
Muzzle Energy- 2280
100yds- 1730 ft/lb
200yds- 1305 ft/lb
300yds- 1001 ft/lb
400yds- 802 ft/lb

The bullets are very similar in energy from the muzzle to 300yds and then the .243 takes over 400yds. Now, we are talking a smidge over 1000fps difference in velocity at the muzzle and 200gr difference in bullet weight. The .45-70 has an advantage with the large meplat on the front of the bullet to throw some shock into the system of the animal and really create a large wound channel. The .45-70 bullet also has a little ass to carry down range and still provide a wallop when it gets there. The .243 depends on speed and bullet design to do the work, but it is still effective on the job at hand.
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Quote "the 6.5 Creedmoor is just a fashion trend that will more than likely end up sitting in most guys safes" Amen, I have a.284 Winchester that I can hardly get ammo for anymore... Guys should be aware that hot new fly-by-night calibers may have no resale value in twenty years and may not be a great investment.
A comment on your ballistic charts, the common consensus of most gun writers is that a bullet should have a bare minimum of 1000 ft-lb's of energy to shoot a deer sized animal, and the.243 carries that all the way out to 400 yards, which elevates it over a whole host of other cartridges that are more expensive, have more recoil, more bullet drop, and less resale value. Again, a .243 is fun to shoot!
 
It'll be interesting to see if the 6.5 sticks. I have a feeling it will, but it might be like the. 260 Rem, great round that just never became popular. I think it's already more popular than the. 260 ever was.
 
The Creedmoor was introduced in 2007 or 2008, so it isn't like it's brand new. I think long range shooting events becoming more common has been the biggest reason for its rise in popularity . It is a nice case with a good neck design that even works well in gas guns. That, coupled with light recoil and BC has made it a hit.
In the hunting arena it doesn't do anything a couple dozen other cartridges won't do just as well or better, but if you are in the market to try something new then why not? It won't ever match the 243 in popularity, but I don't see it disappearing either. As long as I have a 100 cases, I have a lifetime supply of ammo:)

Edit: probably the main reason I started shooting the 6.5 was that I bought a suppressor. Most common threaded barrel guns are in 223, 308 or 6.5 and I figured as long as I'm getting a new gun I'll try a new caliber too. I'd be just as happy with a 308, and may switch to one of those some day.
 
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Lyman 47th has a table for bullet and what animal weight, to what range.

243 was as good or hair better than 30-30. 30-30 is slow. Though 243 in 100 grain is so slow , I don't know why an adult male would not use 30-06.

Back to 45-70, I only shot one. But 350 grain interlok dropped him. It was walking away, never made that shot before. Want to do double long to compare. 30-06 with hand loaded partion,and had one rin good 100 yards. Where I hunt, that can be a problem.

My 45-70 is going to get more action. 18" barrel is sure nice.

Modern expanding bullets are allowing small calibers to be effective. That, if you hunt open country, you may not care how long until animal dies.
 
100 cases, you need to practice more, if that is lifetime supply. I would not feel comfortable if I were to buy an odd caliber.

I believe Creedmoor may be easier on shoulders and stretching. But even so I am a brass hoarder.
 
Berserker said:
Yes. I reload. But a 100 cases is not a life time supply. I would get 500-1000 piceces of brass.
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Depends on how much he shoots and brass care. It could last the rest of his life. 1000 pieces of brass would carry you for several years before you even had start reloading them, then however many reloads it takes for the brass to get hard to be annealed and then start over. I used to shoot my .270Win ALL the time and only have 100 pieces of brass. I have since slowed down and am still using the same brass.
 
DocHolladay said:
Depends on how much he shoots and brass care. It could last the rest of his life. 1000 pieces of brass would carry you for several years before you even had start reloading them, then however many reloads it takes for the brass to get hard to be annealed and then start over. I used to shoot my .270Win ALL the time and only have 100 pieces of brass. I have since slowed down and am still using the same brass.
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Again depednds how much you practice. I like to shoot 1-200 before the season. If I had a concern that a caliber would be hard to get I would buy 500-1000.

Don't see it as much in rifle, but starline offers good deals on 500 or 1000 handgun orders.
 
DocHolladay said:
Depends on how much he shoots and brass care. It could last the rest of his life. 1000 pieces of brass would carry you for several years before you even had start reloading them, then however many reloads it takes for the brass to get hard to be annealed and then start over. I used to shoot my .270Win ALL the time and only have 100 pieces of brass. I have since slowed down and am still using the same brass.
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Yes, I take good care of my brass and don't load hot. Back in 1991 I bought my 300 Weatherby, and it came with 80 pieces of once fired Weatherby brand brass. I am still using those same cases and that gun has dropped many, many animals. It doesn't get shot a ton anymore, usually just enough to confirm the scope is still on.

For hunting purposes, 100 cases would indeed last a lifetime, but if you throw in regular target shooting then 100 cases probably isn't enough. The case design on the Creedmoor should be very good for longevity, as it has a sharp 30 deg shoulder and minimal taper. I enjoy shooting a lot of different calibers so no single gun gets worked too heavily.
 
Finally got a chance to test the 6.5 Creedmoor on a deer today, and the 143 gr Hornady Precision Hunter load passed with flying colors. Honestly, I would have expected nearly any caliber to do the job as it wasn't a tough test. Maybe 150 yards, broadside, little buck. Shooting from the sitting position, took him just behind the shoulders, so no meat damage. Nice hole through the lungs and in the side of the heart (that may have been shrapnel from a rib bone) and a silver dollar sized exit. He ran maybe 40-50 yards and tipped over with a blood trail a blind man could follow. Love a good exit;)
One thing that both the 243 and Creedmoor have in common is shootability. No flinching due to high recoil sure makes for better marksmanship.
I do have to share that two days ago my neighbor shot a very large bodied old buck at close range with his 243. It was at last light and they couldn't find him or any blood. They thought he might have missed but went back and checked the next day and found him. He ran a little ways and fell in a depression and didn't bleed at all until about 10 yards before the end. No exit wound nearly cost him a very nice deer. That is probably the biggest drawback to the lighter 243 bullets in my mind. I had a nearly identical situation a few years ago with my 25-06 shooting a 100gr Barnes X. For the first time ever, the bullet never exited and I didn't find the deer until the next day. No caliber is foolproof, but have I said how much I like an exit:D

Sorry for the rambling.
 
Gravel Road said:
Yes, I take good care of my brass and don't load hot. Back in 1991 I bought my 300 Weatherby, and it came with 80 pieces of once fired Weatherby brand brass. I am still using those same cases and that gun has dropped many, many animals. It doesn't get shot a ton anymore, usually just enough to confirm the scope is still on.

For hunting purposes, 100 cases would indeed last a lifetime, but if you throw in regular target shooting then 100 cases probably isn't enough. The case design on the Creedmoor should be very good for longevity, as it has a sharp 30 deg shoulder and minimal taper. I enjoy shooting a lot of different calibers so no single gun gets worked too heavily.
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I have read the shoulder extends brass life.

Where we may get fuzzy, is on hunting rounds vs practice. Obviously I don't shoot hundreds of rounds hunting. But I like to practice, Maybe you are a better shot than me, and handful a year is good enough for you. Lots of guys only shoot 1 or 2, some don't practice at all, and kill deer.




I also enjoy shooting my rifles.


So on factrory wildcat caliber, I would load up. But I am overly cautious too. Women and children can be careless, but never men.
Before I get yelled at by some millenial. That is a quote from Godfather. I hope that is not offensive here.
 
Some long range hunters have gone to lighter kicking calibers, cause it makes them better shots. How many people are shooting those ranges, and could they get better with a recoil pad, heavy jacket, or practice?
 
Last opportunity for a test on the creedmoor today, with a doe permit. A yearling doe stepped out at 300 yards and I took a broadside shot on her. She ran about 30 yards, stood for 10 seconds and tipped over. Seemed like a perfect shot and couldn't wait to get to her and see how it worked out. Hmm, not that good. The 143 ELD-X hit her high in the rib cage and made a heck of an entrance hole with an exploded rib. No exit hole and the bullet didn't even break the offside rib (no blood trail). I couldn't find the bullet in the chest cavity, so may have to look again later. I love the way the creedmoor shoots but the non-exit on a little doe doesn't make me happy at all. What would happen on an XL size Kansas buck at a poor angle? I believe the 140 fusion factory load or a 143 Nosler Accubond LR is in the works. Is this normal performance for the Hornady Interbond style bullet?
 
It's more of an Interlock/SST than an Interbond. Interlock/SST's tend to have a rapid, controlled expansion once they hit their target. Interbonds are designed to retain 90+% of their weight, similar to Nosler Accubonds and Federal Fusion.

The next 100 deer you shoot may have similar results, but more than likely you will have 100 different results all resulting in a kill. You just need to make sure that you put the bullet where it is supposed to go and you should be just fine. I have become a fan of bonded bullets in the last 10 years and try to buy ammunition that is loaded with it or buy them for my reloading.
 
I thought I wrote Interlock, but maybe spell check got me. I never have used the Hornady's for anything other than varmint bullets. Funny, but have never had a Nosler Partition bullet act this way in decades of hunting. It's strange that the bullet acted this way after a fairly long 300 yard shot. If it was going to drastically expand, you would thing it would happen on a 25 yd shot. With an SD of .293, almost the same as a 200 gr .308, I expect better penetration.
 
The Precision Hunter ammunition has a speed of 2285fps at 300yds and then you throw centerpunching a rib into the picture and you get what you ended up with. Now, like I said in my earlier post, you can shoot 100 deer in the same spot and end up with 100 different results. I wouldn't give up on the bullet and load based on one deer. There are many people that have done the same thing you did and had perfect results with the bullet. The good thing is, she only went 30yds before dying. Keep in mind, just about any bullet you shoot can and will do exactly what this bullet did at some point in a hunting lifetime. It's when you have it happen over and over that you need to think about changing. Everything about what happened has to be considered, shot distance, bullet design, the animals skeletal density, amount of fat, etc. You could also throw in air temp and altitude if you wanted to get technical. The temp probably played more of a roll than altitude. Cold ammunition can have a slower velocity than warm ammunition(this is why I do load work up in the summer).

You mention the Partition. Ever shot a deer in the same spot with the Partition that you did with the ELD-X? Have you ever shot a deer in the same spot with the Partition that you did the ELD-X out of the 6.5 Creedmoor? Have you shot the Partition out of the 6.5 CM at 300yds and hit a deer in the same spot as the ELD-X did? You really can't say one bullet is better than the other until you shoot it out of that rifle at any and all distances and put the bullet in the same spots and get better results.
 
Kabic said:
6mm Creedmoor? 6.5 Creedmoor necked down to take same size bullet as the .243
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The 6mm Creedmoor was developed shortly after the 6.5 came to exist and is based on the 6.5 case. It does shoot a .243 bullet, but most of the time, it is a heavier bullet in the 103-108gr weight, whereas most .243's shoot 80-100gr. If you want to get heavy, Tubbs makes a 115gr bullet. It's not made for hunting, but I am sure you can look around and find one. http://www.davidtubb.com/tubb-accuracy-reloading/dtac115-bare
 
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