The New Coyote and Other Predators..... Can You Win?

[SwampCat]

We are very fond of you too, and I hope that I am the one making you laugh the hardest. I really enjoy entertaining my friends....

One thing I hope to come from all of this is that people can start thinking for themselves (using both their own eyes and minds) and not get too excited about studies that come from a bunch of WOLF WORSHIPING GOVERNMENT HIPPIES... Actually, there are lots of good biologists in government, but they know that if they get out of line and say anything negative about the wrong subject, that they will soon be without a job (or as we say here - might wake up missing....)

This subject reminds me of the old fable about the king who was naked. Everyone could see he was naked (including himself) but no one could say it, because they were supposed to be seeing something else that they were told to see.

The sad part of this discussion is not the rise of the new coyote - no, that can be dealt with at least to some degree to mitigate the problem. The REAL SAD PART is how the minds of modern man can be brainwashed to believe anything - even when they see the opposite with their own eyes. Or, as my Granddaddy used to say - those people wouldn't know the truth if it came up and slapped them in the face....

Carry on dogghr, I love ya man............

I agree - it is not politically correct anymore to condemn predators. Even in the Ft. Rucker, Alabama area, where fawn recruitment is limited to .25 fawns per doe because of coyote predation - they barely mention removing coyotes, but tell everyone they need to limit their doe harvest. In other words, we have become such snowflakes that we are going to donate the doe we used to harvest so that the warm, fuzzy, cute little coyotes have something to eat. Forty years ago, they would have attacked the coyote problem head on. They would have shot them, trapped them, poisoned them, put up a bounty. And for those of you who say that would not have worked - you need to read about the Kiabab Plateau. Predator control programs across the west were very successful in years past. But, that was then, this is now. My own G&F commission allows coyote hunting ten months out of the year - the two months it is shut down - May and June. Those are the two months they should require everyone to kill a coyote. During those two months, you can kill a coyote if you catch it stealing a 25 cent tomato from your garden, but you cant kill a coyote if you see it killing a fawn on your land you spent $20,000 to produce. They have also basically stopped the harvest of coons and possums - because in this state - you cant kill them unless you sell the fur or eat them. Most folks don't eat coons and possums anymore. Since there has not been a market for southern coons or possums in several years, you cant sell them either. So, they are basically off limits.

Most folks accept that predators wont ever be controlled. They either aren't old enough to remember, or their mind is going - back in the the 70's and early 80's - it was difficult to find a bobcat or coyote track where I live. Coons and even possums were scarce. That is what $125 cats, $50 yotes, and $25 coons will do for you. Quail and rabbits abounded. Our state's poult per hen turkey count averaged about five poults per hen. Now, there are no quail, few rabbits, and our poult per hen count averages 1.7. Of course, this is all to blame on habitat degradation according to the biologists. Even when studies prove predators are destroying the nests of ground nesting animals, the biologists in charge all contend that if we improved the habitat, then the predators would not be as successful. Improving the habitat statewide is probably about as much of a pipe dream as lowering predator numbers statewide. This is akin to telling me, after coons destroy all my sweet corn, that I need to provide more fertilizer, more water, cultivate the ground, provide bees for pollination - when in reality - it is just like the Fort Rucker deer herd. If I don't kill the coons, I am going to give them my corn. In the SE, we are giving the coyotes our deer.

 

[dogghr]

We are very fond of you too, and I hope that I am the one making you laugh the hardest. I really enjoy entertaining my friends....

One thing I hope to come from all of this is that people can start thinking for themselves (using both their own eyes and minds) and not get too excited about studies that come from a bunch of WOLF WORSHIPING GOVERNMENT HIPPIES... Actually, there are lots of good biologists in government, but they know that if they get out of line and say anything negative about the wrong subject, that they will soon be without a job (or as we say here - might wake up missing....)

This subject reminds me of the old fable about the king who was naked. Everyone could see he was naked (including himself) but no one could say it, because they were supposed to be seeing something else that they were told to see.

The sad part of this discussion is not the rise of the new coyote - no, that can be dealt with at least to some degree to mitigate the problem. The REAL SAD PART is how the minds of modern man can be brainwashed to believe anything - even when they see the opposite with their own eyes. Or, as my Granddaddy used to say - those people wouldn't know the truth if it came up and slapped them in the face....

Carry on dogghr, I love ya man............

LOL love you too but you are not getting my bud light. And as you know" no prophet is accepted in his own country "( Luke 4:24) Since you were quoting scripture to me. It's a tough assignment. Ask Trump who just landed his AF1 up the road from me to talk to the GOP at the GB about ridding some predators of the world himself.
Seriously, does your dad still shoot coyotes? I know he used to do quite a bit. And I always like your philosophy of hunting them after mowing hay in that it makes them show more and if going to take yotes, its best to do the couple months before fawn drop. I still think more numbers can be taken by trapping with less effort but maybe just because that is where my success has been.
If we ever have that group camp at my place I've talked about we will make sure this will be on our topics for everyone to discuss eye to eye. And maybe something about apple trees. This internet stuff sux.

 

[Native Hunter]

LOL love you too but you are not getting my bud light. And as you know" no prophet is accepted in his own country "( Luke 4:24) Since you were quoting scripture to me. It's a tough assignment. Ask Trump who just landed his AF1 up the road from me to talk to the GOP at the GB about ridding some predators of the world himself.
Seriously, does your dad still shoot coyotes? I know he used to do quite a bit. And I always like your philosophy of hunting them after mowing hay in that it makes them show more and if going to take yotes, its best to do the couple months before fawn drop. I still think more numbers can be taken by trapping with less effort but maybe just because that is where my success has been.
If we ever have that group camp at my place I've talked about we will make sure this will be on our topics for everyone to discuss eye to eye. And maybe something about apple trees. This internet stuff sux.

Dad still hunts them, but his vision is not as sharp as it once was. I take him for injections in his eyeballs (for wet AMD) every 3 months now, and for a while he had to do it every month. His birthday is tomorrow and he turns 83. But, even now if one gives him half a chance under 400 yards, I wouldn't give it a snowball's chance in Hades.......

Yes, the spring hunting just after mowing and just before fawns dropping is just about perfect. I actually hated in a way to let the trapper come right now, because I knew it might negatively affect Dad's best hunting time after we mow, but when I started seeing 4 in one picture, I couldn't let it go on any longer. But, even if we catch a bunch now, he will still likely get some shots then.

Just look at all the good that has come out of this thread. I got to coin two fabulous new phrases for posterity:

1. ...Wolf Worshiping Government Hippies......and
2. ...Pits of Fake Coyote News Hell....

But, I want to amend the first one to say Wolf Worshiping Government Hippie Heathens...... That is more accurate.

If you run into Trump, tell him he has my 100% support, and I think he is the best president I've seen in my entire life......

 

[Native Hunter]

I agree - it is not politically correct anymore to condemn predators. Even in the Ft. Rucker, Alabama area, where fawn recruitment is limited to .25 fawns per doe because of coyote predation - they barely mention removing coyotes, but tell everyone they need to limit their doe harvest. In other words, we have become such snowflakes that we are going to donate the doe we used to harvest so that the warm, fuzzy, cute little coyotes have something to eat. Forty years ago, they would have attacked the coyote problem head on. They would have shot them, trapped them, poisoned them, put up a bounty. And for those of you who say that would not have worked - you need to read about the Kiabab Plateau. Predator control programs across the west were very successful in years past. But, that was then, this is now. My own G&F commission allows coyote hunting ten months out of the year - the two months it is shut down - May and June. Those are the two months they should require everyone to kill a coyote. During those two months, you can kill a coyote if you catch it stealing a 25 cent tomato from your garden, but you cant kill a coyote if you see it killing a fawn on your land you spent $20,000 to produce. They have also basically stopped the harvest of coons and possums - because in this state - you cant kill them unless you sell the fur or eat them. Most folks don't eat coons and possums anymore. Since there has not been a market for southern coons or possums in several years, you cant sell them either. So, they are basically off limits.

Most folks accept that predators wont ever be controlled. They either aren't old enough to remember, or their mind is going - back in the the 70's and early 80's - it was difficult to find a bobcat or coyote track where I live. Coons and even possums were scarce. That is what $125 cats, $50 yotes, and $25 coons will do for you. Quail and rabbits abounded. Our state's poult per hen turkey count averaged about five poults per hen. Now, there are no quail, few rabbits, and our poult per hen count averages 1.7. Of course, this is all to blame on habitat degradation according to the biologists. Even when studies prove predators are destroying the nests of ground nesting animals, the biologists in charge all contend that if we improved the habitat, then the predators would not be as successful. Improving the habitat statewide is probably about as much of a pipe dream as lowering predator numbers statewide. This is akin to telling me, after coons destroy all my sweet corn, that I need to provide more fertilizer, more water, cultivate the ground, provide bees for pollination - when in reality - it is just like the Fort Rucker deer herd. If I don't kill the coons, I am going to give them my corn. In the SE, we are giving the coyotes our deer.

This post by SwampCat is really outstanding in many ways and illustrates what is happening right before our eyes in this country. Everyone should read it and take note. If you read it and don't get the message, I feel sorry for you.....

 

[Inventive]

They have also basically stopped the harvest of coons and possums - because in this state - you cant kill them unless you sell the fur or eat them. Most folks don't eat coons and possums anymore. Since there has not been a market for southern coons or possums in several years, you cant sell them either. So, they are basically off limits.

That's really unfortunate. Missouri just says you can't waste any meat that's commonly used for human consumption. It's a pretty vague line, but it does mean that I can do what I want with any of the predators... Skin 'em, eat 'em, chuck 'em into the woods, whatever. I know some people eat the predators, but it's hardly a "common" practice anymore.

Growing up my father would always tell us how right after they moved out to their property, their neighbor had a poodle get attacked and eaten by coyotes on their front porch. I'm not sure if that's what caused my dad's intense hatred of them or what, but

I don't trap aside from a cage trap near the chickens when I think there's something coming around, but I do shoot just about any predator I see that's in season. I also take the call out and sit for coyotes and bobcats. I have no idea if any of that helps the wild game in the area, but I enjoy it... and if it happens to save a fawn or two and a bunch of poults, I'll take that too.

 

[Triple C]

In the words of Buzz Lightyear, this thread may continue "To infinity and beyond". I'll take yotes over pigs any day. And I'm with NH on Trump...Like him more every day. Hope everyone has benefited from the market rise since Trump's election. And hope it continues! Retirement looms ever so closer.

As for the wily coyote...the only deer we left overnight to find the next morning was half eaten by the time we found the deer. They are very efficient. And...dogghr, I've wondered the same thing...If I were injured and leaving the slightest blood trail would those wily critters discover me. If they did, they'd have a fine meal. Every camera pull these days normally has a pic or 2 of a yote. We trapped them the 1st couple of years after I bought the property. Don't have the time to do so today. As time has gone on, I just don't pay them much attention anymore. We have plenty of fawning cover all across the landscape after thinning pines. Dog fennel 6 ft tall just about everywhere through the pines. I know they take their share during fawning season but our deer population is better than it's ever been on our place.

I had a Luepold moment last year in early April. I slipped through the lower section of our wetlands area to arrive at our largest beaver pond to take in the awakening of spring overlooking the beaver pond. As I sat there, movement caught my eye across the pond in the edge of the woodlands. A rather large yote was walking the wood line and stepped up on to a blow down and just stared motionless for a moment or 2. Then I watched it walk down the blow down and curl up to observe his own little kingdom. At that moment, it just seemed like all was well with the world. Predator doing his thing in his own domain not knowing I was watching. I was sitting on an old duck blind base and kind of took my hat off to the predator across the pond. Now if he comes by me in the stand an arrow or bullet will head his way. But...otherwise, I'll see them as part of the landscape. Here's a pic of what I saw that particular morning with the yote on the blow down across the pond.

 

[SwampCat]

It is a twisted web - pigs wont do you any favors - but our g&f did a study just to see if pigs were preying on fawns - and they werent. Pigs may adversely affect deer indirectly - but coyotes eat them. Around here, I believe Coyotes prey on young pigs - they also prey on coons. I am not trying to get rid of the yote - I am just trying to discourage them from eating my fawns for a month or two.

 

[Baker]

I've enjoyed this thread! I applaud folks that speak with passion and clarity. I have learned a few things as well. Come to find out I'm a snowflake with my management practices. I also very narrowly avoided being a wolf [ maybe predator? ] worshipping govt hippie. I started college to be a wildlife biologist and I guess just by the grace I avoided that horrific moniker . I might still be a brainwashed modern man.

Its been a tough year for me. I was accused of being deplorable by a woman running to represent me in the highest office of the land. On another hunting forum I learned I am immoral because I'm going to watch the super bowl . [ I like football...who knew?] On this thread I may well be considered brainwashed, a snowflake, and barely avoided being a [predator] worshipping govt hippie. DANG!

For my 63 years, growing up hunting fishing and yes...trapping I always have been self confident self assured and thought I knew myself well. Now I'm confused, insecure and unsure what to do.I don't know who I am anymore. My ego is crushed and my self esteem has plummeted. Should I become a vegan and join PETA?

To be read only with sense of humor


Now back to the spirit of the thread.

I am in whole hearted agreement that if anyone wants to shoot predators to improve fawn recruitment get after it! Far as that goes if someone wants to shoot/trap predators for fun/profit whatever I'm good with that too. I've only shared my experience. I manage property in 2 different countries and do have a healthy deer population along with all predator/prey species endemic to their respective areas. I do no purposeful predator management and see no negative effects from it. I've also seen deer populations increase from~ 1 deer per 100 acres to requiring significant female removal for control. { we trapped and removed 125 last year }That in an environment that I propose has as high or higher a predator population as anywhere in North America. Even in La. once we converted weak forest land to lush whitetail habitat populations took off, granted with a lower but nonetheless existing predator population.

Whats the difference between my experience and what others are reporting here? Why do some struggle with deer numbers and recruitment where others have quality recruitment and herds at or exceeding healthy numbers?

A starting point might be the predator at the top of the food chain: Man. If man is, thru predation, exceeding the biological availability of the resource then growing a deer herd is compromised. We shouldn't really start removing the excess men [ should we? ] so moving down the food chain to coyotes etc. may be the only option to salvage whatever recruitment possible. But in my mind coyotes aren't the real problem.Mans harvest strategy is. This complicated by small land holding and land fragmentation which make effective deer herd mgt. practically impossible . A difference between my situation and others might well be that I have been able to control the impact of man...in Mexico thru scale and in La thru dictatorship. With mans predation controlled, populations have increased in spite of other predators.

A second consideration I keep coming back to is habitat. I'm convinced without reservation that habitat can be managed to enhance fawn survival in spite of any population of predators . Such has been my experience. However it has to be on a scale to meaningfully impact enough deer to create critical mass. A well managed couple hundred acres here or there in otherwise weak landscape doesn't get you there. Again, in a compromised circumstance predator removal may make sense.

Regarding habitat I think we can all agree that prey species respond very quickly to enhanced habitat. Create the right ground cover and rats mice rabbits etc will flourish. This creates easier and more bountiful meals for coyotes year round . This principle is why I believe mountain lions don't destroy our herd in Mexico. Using the numbers Dogghr posted earlier if they are true we wouldn't have any deer on our ranch. 4 years ago while doing a survey we counted 10 lions. However because our habitat is so robust the javelina population flourishes and all the studies down there verify that javelinas are the preferred food for lions...easier to catch, less danger thus less attention to our deer. I will repeat and say again we hardly ever lose a buck except by bullet or old age once we identify it at 3 or 4.And we have a bunch of them. Can anyone else say that? Whats the difference?


I appreciate and agree that if faced with circumstances a posted by others here, predator control makes all the sense. I focused on coyotes. Here in La. we do thin coons as I know they impact turkey nesting. Flooding is a bigger problem for our turkeys but I can't do anything about that. I believe we are all in agreement that each location is unique proposing fine tuned strategies to meet individual goals.

 

[Native Hunter]

Now that dogghr has encouraged me in this thread, I'm finding it hard to stop posting on this subject. I might as well get the real things I want to say off my chest, so here it is:

What most people overlook is the real, underlying reason that predator worship is being pushed down the throats of American society by the cultural elite. It is yet another way to ruin hunting in order to discourage new hunters and make as many old hunters as possible just throw in the towel and give up. The goal = replace the hunter and his GUN with the predator...

If this can be done, it discourages more gun ownership and also discourages rugged individualism - the two biggest obstacles they have in their goal to disarm society and make everyone dependent on them for everything - transforming everyone into just a bunch of doped up, pill dependent zombies, who need pizza insurance, pet comfort pigs, and software that tells them where and when their lap dogs pooped.

Go ahead and fall for it if you must, but don't expect to see me at the hemp party....

 

[Native Hunter]

I've enjoyed this thread! I applaud folks that speak with passion and clarity. I have learned a few things as well. Come to find out I'm a snowflake with my management practices. I also very narrowly avoided being a wolf [ maybe predator? ] worshipping govt hippie. I started college to be a wildlife biologist and I guess just by the grace I avoided that horrific moniker . I might still be a brainwashed modern man.

Its been a tough year for me. I was accused of being deplorable by a woman running to represent me in the highest office of the land. On another hunting forum I learned I am immoral because I'm going to watch the super bowl . [ I like football...who knew?] On this thread I may well be considered brainwashed, a snowflake, and barely avoided being a [predator] worshipping govt hippie. DANG!

For my 63 years, growing up hunting fishing and yes...trapping I always have been self confident self assured and thought I knew myself well. Now I'm confused, insecure and unsure what to do.I don't know who I am anymore. My ego is crushed and my self esteem has plummeted. Should I become a vegan and join PETA?

To be read only with sense of humor


Now back to the spirit of the thread.

I am in whole hearted agreement that if anyone wants to shoot predators to improve fawn recruitment get after it! Far as that goes if someone wants to shoot/trap predators for fun/profit whatever I'm good with that too. I've only shared my experience. I manage property in 2 different countries and do have a healthy deer population along with all predator/prey species endemic to their respective areas. I do no purposeful predator management and see no negative effects from it. I've also seen deer populations increase from~ 1 deer per 100 acres to requiring significant female removal for control. { we trapped and removed 125 last year }That in an environment that I propose has as high or higher a predator population as anywhere in North America. Even in La. once we converted weak forest land to lush whitetail habitat populations took off, granted with a lower but nonetheless existing predator population.

Whats the difference between my experience and what others are reporting here? Why do some struggle with deer numbers and recruitment where others have quality recruitment and herds at or exceeding healthy numbers?

A starting point might be the predator at the top of the food chain: Man. If man is, thru predation, exceeding the biological availability of the resource then growing a deer herd is compromised. We shouldn't really start removing the excess men [ should we? ] so moving down the food chain to coyotes etc. may be the only option to salvage whatever recruitment possible. But in my mind coyotes aren't the real problem.Mans harvest strategy is. This complicated by small land holding and land fragmentation which make effective deer herd mgt. practically impossible . A difference between my situation and others might well be that I have been able to control the impact of man...in Mexico thru scale and in La thru dictatorship. With mans predation controlled, populations have increased in spite of other predators.

A second consideration I keep coming back to is habitat. I'm convinced without reservation that habitat can be managed to enhance fawn survival in spite of any population of predators . Such has been my experience. However it has to be on a scale to meaningfully impact enough deer to create critical mass. A well managed couple hundred acres here or there in otherwise weak landscape doesn't get you there. Again, in a compromised circumstance predator removal may make sense.

Regarding habitat I think we can all agree that prey species respond very quickly to enhanced habitat. Create the right ground cover and rats mice rabbits etc will flourish. This creates easier and more bountiful meals for coyotes year round . This principle is why I believe mountain lions don't destroy our herd in Mexico. Using the numbers Dogghr posted earlier if they are true we wouldn't have any deer on our ranch. 4 years ago while doing a survey we counted 10 lions. However because our habitat is so robust the javelina population flourishes and all the studies down there verify that javelinas are the preferred food for lions...easier to catch, less danger thus less attention to our deer. I will repeat and say again we hardly ever lose a buck except by bullet or old age once we identify it at 3 or 4.And we have a bunch of them. Can anyone else say that? Whats the difference?


I appreciate and agree that if faced with circumstances a posted by others here, predator control makes all the sense. I focused on coyotes. Here in La. we do thin coons as I know they impact turkey nesting. Flooding is a bigger problem for our turkeys but I can't do anything about that. I believe we are all in agreement that each location is unique proposing fine tuned strategies to meet individual goals.

It's great that we agree on everything Rusty! Thanks for sharing.....

 

[SwampCat]

Where I live in Arkansas - We had a lot of deer in my neck of the woods ten years ago and then the population started to decline. We had two years of drought back to back - we had a year of almost no fawn recruitment due to sixty days of flooding in May and June. And through that adversity, the antlerless harvest regulations stayed the same. At the same time, fawn recruitment was decreasing across the southeast. I think it was a combination of things - not just the coyote. Whatever the reason for the decline, we were left with a reduced deer population and a fawn recruitment of less than .5. Low fawn recruitment means something is killing your fawns in the first four months of their life. When you have a low fawn recruitment and a low deer population - itis difficult to reverse the trend. We quit shooting does. I did everything to my land I could think of to help. But it didnt help the recruitment numbers but we did start seeing a few more does after a few years. Besides hunting and fishing - I manage my land for wildlife - thats it. I have time to employ different management techniques. Why would I provide all the food and cover I could and ignore predation. My coyotes have hogs, coons, and a few deer to eat. We have very few rabbits, rats, turkeys, quail, or even snakes. My coyotes dont have many options if they want to eat meat.

As Baker indicated earlier on his ranch out west - there are all types of predators - but all types of prey species. Dogghr has mentioned a number of times they have a high deer density at his place. If I had a high deer density in my general area, or had a smorgasbord of prey species - I would probably be proclaiming that predator removal was unnecessary. I didnt feel compelled to actively pursue coyotes ten years ago when we had lots of deer. As serious deer managers on our own property, I believe most of us would do all we could to improve a bad situation.

 

[dogghr]

Dang it. I'm writing up on bears yet you guys just won't let me walk away. I can't agree with the agenda mentioned. I know there are threats but I'm just not built that way. I think man can be just as guilty of choosing his love for anything Including the almighty deer, that he will rationalize anything else to achieve that goal whatever it may be, and I understand that. But more than one animal was created and while we may be their managers, we must accept all that is created regardless how a select few may choose to over emphasize their importance.
There are partial quotes on here of studies yet no mention of the results as the studies continue for subsequent years as deer numbers lower themselves after that first year of predator removal. And I'm sure the friends I have who do some of this research are not imagining the ability of a female coyote to increase litter production as needed. And I know them well enough to know they have no hidden agenda. That certainly is not unique at all in many animal groups. Don't deer produce or even abort their young dependant on health of the doe? You bet she does.
So what do we as hunters do? We deem how many deer should exist on our property, in our state, or across the country when in reality perhaps the habitat is meant to only support what it is choosing. Seriously may not affect much with our management on our 50 or 100 or 1000 ac which is just a small speck. Maybe 5 deer/sq mile is normal. Maybe 100 could be. Meanwhile we have completely changed the landscape as it once existed yet expect that changed landscape to support the deer numbers that we want.

Maybe the deer don't need to be the density we deem it should be. Maybe nature has understood that and tries in its inherent God given ways to manage it accordingly. And that management can and does include many avenues of weather, disease, predator including man.
We have tremendous responsibility as God appointed managers and to assume that any animal should not exist is to ignore all natures intricacies. Yea I know we are trying to increase deer numbers, but no one has answered me yet. In reality most, if not all, who despise the coyote would lose no sleep if they never existed any more. Now what are you doing with the next predator that takes its place? Do you thing die offs, or disease, or malnourished animals are better than the death caused by a predator? Not in my mind.
Given a chance, a predator can make you a better hunter, and if you aren't capable of out hunting him, well then just maybe you are just not the apex you think you are. Don't tell me landscape doesn't affect the predator/prey relationship. That's like telling me small fish don't hide in structure to keep the large bass from eating them. Do the work and not the shortcut.

I've seen and live in an area where kill anything as much as you want. I've seen arguments to keep certain practices with farming or industry that were destroying certain animal groups in the name of protection of lifestyle. I enjoy and embrace some of the most diverse animal populations today that has existed in my lifetime. I enjoy the deer, but on my land, and my landscape, I simply unashamably enjoy the eagle , hawk, coon, bobcat, bear , and even the coyote. I watch all with awe and try to learn how they function and what niche they may have in my world even when I find it complex or frustrating. I don't expect to change many minds... but there may just be that one person. And I am kinda a hippie just for the record.

 

[Mennoniteman]

I never asked a coyote where he was from before I shot him. But I've just learned from this thread that after I shot all of my own, all my neighbors coyotes ran over to my place and I shot all of those too. I think these are great genetic traits! Let's see if we can somehow introduce these genes into some trophy bucks

 

[Baker]

I never asked a coyote where he was from before I shot him. But I've just learned from this thread that after I shot all of my own, all my neighbors coyotes ran over to my place and I shot all of those too. I think these are great genetic traits! Let's see if we can somehow introduce these genes into some trophy bucks

Grown many trophy bucks?

 

[SwampCat]

I never asked a coyote where he was from before I shot him. But I've just learned from this thread that after I shot all of my own, all my neighbors coyotes ran over to my place and I shot all of those too. I think these are great genetic traits! Let's see if we can somehow introduce these genes into some trophy bucks

I think my “trophy” bucks do just the opposite - they run over to my neighbor’s ground so they can shoot them.

 

[SwampCat]

Wildlife dynamics are ever changing - that is what makes this field so interesting. I have a degree in wildlife and worked in the Natural Reaource field for 34 years and have pretty much been invloved in it full time on my own place since I retired five years ago - and I swear, I think I know less about it now than I did twenty years ago. Probably the one thing I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt - is just because something is one way on one piece of property doesnt mean it is the same way on another. I have two pieces of property, in the river bottoms of the same river, eight miles apart - and the dynamics indluencing the wildlife on those two properties is as different as night and day. Where I feel a need to increase my deer herd and my fawn recruitment on my home ground, that is not the case on my land eight miles away - even though there are more coyotes there and fawn recruitment is the same - or maybe lower - if anything. I have seen the same scenario everywhere I have been.

I also read all the time about providing better cover to increase fawn survivability. But coyote pictures increase three fold on my home ground during fawning season. I believe that is because I have provided good fawning cover compared to neighboring lands - and a higher density of does utilize my land than my neighbor’s lands - making my land more attractive to predators. If I didnt provide as good of fawning cover - would there be fewer fawns birthed on my ground - and fewer fawns preyed upon because my ground would be less attractive to coyotes? If coyotes are spending three times as much time on my ground in June as they did in February - does that mean they are spending much less time on my neithbor’s land? - potentially increasing fawn recruitment there? I try to improve my land for all types of wildlife - rabbits, rats, even honey bees. Because my land is so attractive to wildlife - does that attract more predators? When removing the coyotes which may result in higher reproductive rates - which means an overall younger coyote population - so theoretically - those younger coyotes are less efficient hunters. I kill a lot of hogs on my other property - and have just recently read a study suggesting that hunter killed hogs left in the woods could be aiding in elevating the the coyote population by providing an easy, abundant food source. So is it better to not kill my hogs to lower the coyote population - or maybe with the abundant dead hogs, the coyotes wont eat as many deer. When I catch two coyotes and hang them on the fence and coyote pictures drop to nothing - is that because I caught the two regular coyote visitors on my land or is it because coyotes take notice of their dead relatives and avoid the place for awhile - like hanging dead crows in the garden and the others steer clear. These, and a hundred other things I question. And I often come across folks who have never seen my place - but seem to know what it takes to manage my land.

If I knew the answers to all the questions - life wouldnt be nearly as interesting.

 

[dogghr]

I agree with most of that Swampcat, especially the last line, that is a mouthful. I do disagree with removal of coyote makes the remaining ones less effective. Most any study along those lines show when the hierarchy is disrupted, the less dominant then work harder to be the alpha and that leads to more game loss. I've seen that on my own place and why I have the respect of my grey bearded alpha and I think why he would walk thru a bedding area without hardly a sniff of the does laying there as I described in my first post.
I really do agree with most of what everyone has posted on this thread. But I especially want the newby, that is bombarded by how the predator is destroying all his work to realize there is somewhat a balance in the web and that there are other ways to help circumvent the issue if they don't or can't shoot or trap predator.
They are a real problem in many areas of the country and if a property has the fawning and bedding cover adequate then predator removal is much more effective when done. I certainly know predators don't sit around the campfire with their prey singing KumBaYa and they can be a factor in management .
I appreciate the civility of all these comments and have really enjoyed all the opinions and hopefully I didn't sound too gruff on some of my late night tirades. Its snow and zero deg so off the farm to drop some trees for midwinter snacks for my deer. Luckily was a great hard mast this year because its been a nasty one. Maybe I'll see a coyote searching for mice in the snow.

 

[Mennoniteman]

Grown many trophy bucks?

Nothing like the pictures that you post. In Pa 150 is a trophy buck. I've grown some of those. I'm impressed with what you are doing in Mississippi and enjoy your pics.

 

[H20fwler]

If I'm hunting turkey/deer/ducks and I see a coyote....I'm coyote hunting every time. Feral cats and yotes never get a pass here.

 

[Drycreek]

I guess I'm somewhere to the right of middle on this subject. I don't want to see all the coyotes and bobcats extirpated in my little corner of creation. On the other hand, I don't want to see three or four coyotes each time I go deer hunting. I KNOW that coyotes prey on fawns, but I don't know to what extent. I do know that following three winters and springs of trapping on my small place the fawn survival was much better. I started seeing more twins into deer season than in previous years. Average rainfall, my foodplots, native browse, etc. pretty much stayed the same, so I'm betting that coyote removal had something to do with that.

Regardless, I will continue to shoot them anytime I can because I know they will never be scarce around my place.