How old is this buck?
- Thread starter Lukeduke1588
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T-Max
Well-Known Member
Shoot him if you want him, but don’t consider it culling.
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Lukeduke1588
New Member
Appreciate the feedback! I’d like to let him walk if there’s a chance he’ll be bigger next year. I just can’t determine his age and don’t want to take out a young buck with potential.
Dogshooter
Member
Doesn’t look over 3 to me.
Lukeduke1588
New Member
Thanks for the reply!
yoderjac
Well-Known Member
First, why would you want to "cull" any buck? If you are thinking genetics, forget it. This podcast will bring you up to speed on the science: Culling Bucks for Genetics
95% of the time when someone says they are "culling" a buck, they are looking for a way to justify shooting it. Our hunting culture has changed since I was a kid. Back then, it was considered shameful to shoot a doe and manly to shoot a buck. Deer numbers were low and there was nascent science being applied to hunting and wildlife management. As deer numbers climbed over my lifetime and the QDM culture was pushed, it because fine to shoot a doe and shameful to shoot a young buck.
Shoot any legal deer you want, as others have insinuated, don't fool yourself. Letting young bucks walk, when done on sufficient scale, will increase the number of more mature bucks available to shoot. Culling does is an effective technique to manage deer populations to keep them inside the biological or cultural carrying capacities. It takes out the doe, her offspring, and their offspring...on and on... "Culling" a buck takes one deer out of the habitat having a very tiny impact. It has no impact on the genetics as the podcast makes clear, unless you are hunting in a high fenced operation.
Shoot the deer because you want to shoot it if that is what you want to do. If you are trying to increase the number of mature bucks and operating on sufficient scale, let that young buck walk. If you are working on a small property, without coordination with neighboring properties and you want the meat, shoot it. If you don't someone probably will.
I hunt on 2 properties. We are part owners of a pine farm that is about 400 acres and have another adjoining that is cooperating. Even with that we are undersized for QDM, but we are still trying. On that property, our experienced hunters let young bucks walk (We let new hunters shoot any deer). I have another property that is only 16 acres. I prefer to shoot a young buck over a doe on that property. It is in an area where there is plenty of room for herd growth given the BCC. I get more meat for the same amount of dressing and butchering work from a young buck than a doe.
One property has a management objective. The other is small and recreational.
Drycreek
Well-Known Member
“Cull“ means different things to different people. Maybe you can’t change genetics with culling and maybe you can, depending on your circumstances , but that’s not the point as I see it. What is the point is this: Is that buck ever going to be a “trophy” ? Probably not as I see him at least four, probaly five or more. Look at how his neck flows into his brisket with no brisket hump. His body is square, no narrowing at the “waist”. He’s no youngster ! If you have no history with him, it might be hard to tell his age, but those body characteristics don’t fit a two or three year old. If he’s not going to amount to much antler wise and you like venison, by all means take him out. Everyone has finite resources where deer food is concerned, especially in winter. He’s another mouth to feed, so “cull” him and let a buck with more potential take his place at the dinner table. That’s what “culling” means to me, it has nothing to do with changing the genetics. The genes are the genes.
A young buck with potential. Notice the “step” at the brisket and the “waist”. Notice also that his hips are larger than his shoulders.
A young buck with potential. Notice the “step” at the brisket and the “waist”. Notice also that his hips are larger than his shoulders.
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yoderjac
Well-Known Member
Shoot him and eliminate 1 moth to feed. Shoot a doe and eliminate many mouths to feed for years to come.
GivingBack
New Member
I am going to agree with Drycreek, that is not a young deer, at least a 3yo, certainly mature enough to show some potential if he has it. And I agree this is not about improving genetics, let's save that argument for another thread. Culling is not a bad word, I have already seem a couple posts on my short time on this board where a hunter asks a perfectly reasonable question if an effort to try and learn and the first response he gets from "seasoned" hunter is to pounce on the guy for using the term "cull". Come on guys, we are supposed to be here to help each other, not hammer the guy so he never asks another question... Luke, its a good question, and I say this about whether or not to shoot it: Only you can decide what type of management tactics you want to follow, are you trying improve the number of bucks in the area? or are you trying to grow trophy size mature bucks? Either way there is one thing that never changes and Drycreek said it, "Everyone has finite resources where deer food is concerned" so every deer that you have is eating and if none of them are good enough for you then deciding which ones to get rid of is your next step. There are a lot of well educated people out there that can help you with that decision, but I will say about the buck in question that if a 3-4 yo buck hasn't shown potential by now he needs to go to make room for another buck that might. And yes, Yoder is correct about shooting does, you do need to shoot some of them, but... last time I checked Bucks don't have babies, so if you are looking replace a lesser buck in your herd with a potentialy better buck, you may want to think it over.
Native Hunter
Well-Known Member
Well spoken, and welcome to the forum.
yoderjac
Well-Known Member
If you think my intent was to pounce on him for using the word "cull", it was not. It was to help him and others from falling for the old myth that shooting a buck that has small antlers (whether or not he will ever be a trophy) improves the antler size of future deer in the herd through genetic manipulation. The science says otherwise. Which is why I pointed him to the MSU deer lab podcast.
I come from a state were baiting is illegal and supplemental feeding creates more risk than benefit. In states where supplemental feeding and baiting are the norm, there is probably a different perspective.
You are also right that "culling bucks" has a different connotation to different folks. In general, it simply means removing select bucks from the herd without regard to why. So, the real question here is Why?
If I'm removing an older buck that has no potential to produce big antlers, instead of removing a younger buck with potential, it certainly means there is one more buck for next year that could be a "shooter" whatever your criteria is for that. In an area where the lack of quality food is a limiting factor, it certainly means one less mouth to feed. However, the key words here are "Instead of". If I shoot a doe instead of either of those bucks, I have the same number of "shooters" for next year and I have many less mouths to feed for future years.
I've got no issue with anyone shooting any buck because they want to. And as you guys say, "culling" has different connotation in different places. Here I hear it used most often by well intending folks who think they are improving the genetics of the herd, or by folks looking or an excuse to shoot a buck because it is not socially acceptable to shoot a young buck just because you want to.
Drycreek
Well-Known Member
Some of the “science” is not gospel to me. If you remove one deer from the herd here, you remove one deer. I don’t shoot many does because I don’t have many does. It’s the rare doe here that raises twins to the point that they breed. Coyotes are the problem, we are eaten up with them. So…..if I see a buck I want to shoot, and I’m fairly discriminatory, I’ll shoot him. Having said that, I don’t use the same criteria on each property I hunt. One property has lots of does and that’s where I will take one or two. The other two don’t have many does so I won’t shoot any there. We have one guy, and he is the actual lease holder, that will shoot one (or two) in a heartbeat. Us hangers on don’t complain because we can’t. Thankfully he has a busy work schedule and doesn’t hunt that much. I’m virtually the only one out of the five of us who is really gung ho about management, I introduced food plots and it has increased our deer sightings but we still don’t have many does. I wish I could trap for coyotes there, but all the neighbors have dogs and I don’t want to stir crap because I’ve been there and done that ! Besides that, I’m too old and it’s hard for me to get down on my knees and up again. I know the “science” says that trapping won’t thin out the coyote population. Tell that to all the dead ones that I used to trap !
yoderjac
Well-Known Member
Science should not be gospel to anyone. An open mind is required to change my opinion when new data is uncovered. Science is never static. You seem to be in an interesting and unique situation. I'm not saying culling bucks is never required, but the situations where it is are few. Having more bucks than does is certainly unusual, but not unheard of. I'm actually starting to see similar trends at my place. Since coyotes have taken up residence, our recruitment had clearly declined. By letting small bucks walk, except of new hunters, has certainly increased our buck numbers.
I struggle with the coyote situation. Right now, our position is to shoot them if you want to, but we are not making any concerted effort to remove them. I was talking with a USDA biologist that had just finished a study on coyotes. There is some evidence emerging that removing certain classes of males at the wrong time of year can actually cause females to produce more pups and more female pups. They can range so widely in such a short time that any long-term control would need to be practiced over a very wide area.
On thing I have been contemplating is intense short-term management. I think knocking down the population, even if temporarily, right before fawning may be helpful with recruitment.
From a habitat perspective, avoiding long narrow strips of good cover can be helpful. Does are encouraged to fawn in that heave cover and it becomes very easy for coyotes to hunt these strips.
Nature is complex.
Drycreek
Well-Known Member
I think the reason that we have lots of does (and fawns) on the one place is that it’s adjacent to a 960 acre property that almost nobody hunts. It’s also pretty thick cover. Our place is pretty thick too, and it’s much longer than it is wide, there fore it hunts bigger than it actuall is. Coyotes don’t do well in thick cover, but does with fawns do. We also have lots of pigs and lots of rabbits. Tiny pigs are an easy catch for coyotes, they are very vocal and they are always on the move. I have seen a group of pigs on camera,easily identifiable by their colors, then a few days later a couple are missing. Several pictures one after the other verifies to me that they weren’t just out of view. That’s a theory, but a pretty good one I think. The other two places don’t have as much cover. We kill every coyote we can, but it ain’t helping much.
yoderjac
Well-Known Member
Ok, now I'm confused. I thought your previous post said you don't shoot many does because you don't have many. This one says you have lots of does. Am I missing something?
