Layering mast trees.....

[j-bird]

Has anyone out there intentionally layered mast trees. What I mean by this is we can "layer" food plots buy having some plants provide food at a higher physical, while another does the same at a lower height. I am considering trying to do something similar with mast trees. I have a fruit/nut orchard so to speak where I am considering planting mast producing shrubs at the base of taller mast producing trees. Say planting plums under an apple or DCO under a sawtooth or hazelnut under a chestnut. My thinking is that I can take advantage of more space within my "orchard" by essentially have 2 plants in one location. Many of the trees are already in cages so to add a shrub inside the cage seems like a decent idea to take advantage of the 4 to 5 feet off the ground where the tree is being protected and provide some yet additional diversity. Just an idea I am tossing around and looking for some thoughts.....

 

[Mennoniteman]

Has anyone out there intentionally layered mast trees. What I mean by this is we can "layer" food plots buy having some plants provide food at a higher physical, while another does the same at a lower height. I am considering trying to do something similar with mast trees. I have a fruit/nut orchard so to speak where I am considering planting mast producing shrubs at the base of taller mast producing trees. Say planting plums under an apple or DCO under a sawtooth or hazelnut under a chestnut. My thinking is that I can take advantage of more space within my "orchard" by essentially have 2 plants in one location. Many of the trees are already in cages so to add a shrub inside the cage seems like a decent idea to take advantage of the 4 to 5 feet off the ground where the tree is being protected and provide some yet additional diversity. Just an idea I am tossing around and looking for some thoughts.....

It sounds like a neat idea, although, all trees, shrubs, and other plants are in competition for sunlight, water and nutrients. Therefore, the best way to get a tree to do well is to give it space from other plantings. Sunlight wouldn't be a problem but you might be robbing your primary trees of water and nutrients.

 

[catscratch]

Nature does what you are talking about on our place.
Burr and Pin oaks dominate the forest.
Chinkapin are tall but not as tall as Burr. They form then first layer out towards the edge from the bigger oaks.
DCO then grow at the base of the Chinkapin.
After that is grass and shrubs.

I have a persimmon and chestnut growing in the same cage. The persimmon is growing vertically and the chestnut is growing more bushy. I can take pics tonight if you want.

 

[dogghr]

Well it does occur to some degree in nature. And if you mean a transition from low to tall front to back then I think can be good idea. But if intention is to have low growing beneath tall, then I think long term that is not good idea. Trees compete for moisture and sunlight like any plant. And oaks will produce more abundantly once they mature if the tree has no immediate competition and can crown as opposed to upward growth. Example is huge mast producers that sit in field without other trees to compete. Now, shade tolerant trees will perform well beneath an understory, but at the expense of the larger tree. Trees such as RO and WO will grow more vertical to reach sunlight away from competition and produce signifacant less crowning thus reducing optimum hard mast production That's why they were fire dependant for their numbers in the virgin forests, as fire destroyed the less tolerant understory, reducing competition. Now obviously reds and whites can take 20-50 years to reach full maturity and most of us may not be around to care.

 

[j-bird]

Nature does what you are talking about on our place.
Burr and Pin oaks dominate the forest.
Chinkapin are tall but not as tall as Burr. They form then first layer out towards the edge from the bigger oaks.
DCO then grow at the base of the Chinkapin.
After that is grass and shrubs.

I have a persimmon and chestnut growing in the same cage. The persimmon is growing vertically and the chestnut is growing more bushy. I can take pics tonight if you want.

No need for a pic Cat.....

 

[catscratch]

No need for a pic Cat.....

I might do it anyway. I'm always looking for a reason to get out and check things out.

 

[j-bird]

Keep in mind this is in an orchard setting or that is at least my plan. I can understand the competition, but it would primarily be between the tree and the shrub alone. Sunlight should be pretty much a non-issue but water could be a bigger issue.....more so for the shrub. The tree will have a greater root system to reach further out and down. Just an idea I have been toying with......I would essentially grow the tree first for a few years and then plant the shrub that way the tree had a chance to develop and to essentially create the space for the shrub. I am even considering doing this with browse species of shrubs as well as as a spin on the same concept. I guess I see it more more like a vertical mast plot if you will. Most of the trees (especially my fruit trees) will be limited to semi-dwarf rootstocks. The sawtooth oaks I have and even the SWO I will be planting may eventually get too big.....but I think there may be some possibilities with this concept.....if not.....I have been wrong before....

 

[rlb165]

J-bird, some people who practice permaculture do something called "food forests". What you're talking about seems kind of similar.

https://permaculturenews.org/2011/10/21/why-food-forests/

 

[catscratch]

I don't listen well. The shorter tree in front is a chestnut, the taller in the back is a persimmon. Both planted from seed at the same time. Orchard setting and both are growing great.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[Fish]

Jbird, thinking outside the box is always a great idea. Im definitely curious.

Is this for long term? Or are the shrubs assumed temporary until the trees consume them?

I am a little unsure about both existing in the same ground for more than a decade. The tree will eventually out compete the smaller shrub. Water, nutrients, and sunlight. Any more insight on this?

 

[Native Hunter]

Has anyone out there intentionally layered mast trees. What I mean by this is we can "layer" food plots buy having some plants provide food at a higher physical, while another does the same at a lower height. I am considering trying to do something similar with mast trees. I have a fruit/nut orchard so to speak where I am considering planting mast producing shrubs at the base of taller mast producing trees. Say planting plums under an apple or DCO under a sawtooth or hazelnut under a chestnut. My thinking is that I can take advantage of more space within my "orchard" by essentially have 2 plants in one location. Many of the trees are already in cages so to add a shrub inside the cage seems like a decent idea to take advantage of the 4 to 5 feet off the ground where the tree is being protected and provide some yet additional diversity. Just an idea I am tossing around and looking for some thoughts.....

My thoughts:

• To some extent, what you are talking about does occur in nature, but everything that occurs in nature is not always good - sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't. There is a big difference in an understory tree or shrub growing a few feet away from a canopy tree compared to one that is competing for the exact same space.
• A small shade tolerant shrub like hazelnut or tree like paw paw would be the most likely candidates for this method you describe working out well. These species have evolved in close quarter situations similar (although not always exactly the same) as you are describing. However, even considering that, it may not be the best situation.
• The ultimate size of the species within your cages will be hard to judge, and the close root competition will eventually be an issue for one or both species. If the trunks grow together (or shrub limbs start rubbing tree bark) it could cause issues as well.
• Small trees growing underneath and in extremely close proximity to taller trees will naturally develop a leaning trunk and no limb structure on the shaded side. So what you end up with is a leaning trunk (already an undesirable situation) plus the heavy weight of the limbs that develop on the sunny side. Uprooting or breaking from wind or ice damage is more likely in these situations.
• Spacing out the species and taking the ultimate size of each into account, along with shade tolerance of each is the best bet for success. This way, each set of roots can develop in a wagon wheel pattern and grow healthier due to lack of close competition.
• Trees are different from food plot species in many ways. A food plot species being choked by another species will likely die out and be gone within a few months. Mast trees being stressed can hang on for decades, yet not be productive due to stressful and competitive growing conditions.
• Even if you change your mind later and remove one of the species, the one that is left could be disadvantaged by a lopsided root structure developed early in life.

I'm not downing you idea. But you said you were looking for thoughts. Those are mine.

Good Luck........

 

[j-bird]

J-bird, some people who practice permaculture do something called "food forests". What you're talking about seems kind of similar.

https://permaculturenews.org/2011/10/21/why-food-forests/

Thanks for the link.

I don't listen well. The shorter tree in front is a chestnut, the taller in the back is a persimmon. Both planted from seed at the same time. Orchard setting and both are growing great.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Thanks Cat - I think a persimmons and a chestnut may be even in more direct competition than I am shooting for, but looks like time will tell in your case.

Jbird, thinking outside the box is always a great idea. Im definitely curious.

Is this for long term? Or are the shrubs assumed temporary until the trees consume them?

I am a little unsure about both existing in the same ground for more than a decade. The tree will eventually out compete the smaller shrub. Water, nutrients, and sunlight. Any more insight on this?

Fish - the shrubs would be for as long as they could/would survive. I simply see the space between the ground and the lowest "scaffold" on my fruit trees and saw it is a potential opportunity.

My thoughts:

• To some extent, what you are talking about does occur in nature, but everything that occurs in nature is not always good - sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't. There is a big difference in an understory tree or shrub growing a few feet away from a canopy tree compared to one that is competing for the exact same space.
• A small shade tolerant shrub like hazelnut or tree like paw paw would be the most likely candidates for this method you describe working out well. These species have evolved in close quarter situations similar (although not always exactly the same) as you are describing. However, even considering that, it may not be the best situation.
• The ultimate size of the species within your cages will be hard to judge, and the close root competition will eventually be an issue for one or both species. If the trunks grow together (or shrub limbs start rubbing tree bark) it could cause issues as well.
• Small trees growing underneath and in extremely close proximity to taller trees will naturally develop a leaning trunk and no limb structure on the shaded side. So what you end up with is a leaning trunk (already an undesirable situation) plus the heavy weight of the limbs that develop on the sunny side. Uprooting or breaking from wind or ice damage is more likely in these situations.
• Spacing out the species and taking the ultimate size of each into account, along with shade tolerance of each is the best bet for success. This way, each set of roots can develop in a wagon wheel pattern and grow healthier due to lack of close competition.
• Trees are different from food plot species in many ways. A food plot species being choked by another species will likely die out and be gone within a few months. Mast trees being stressed can hang on for decades, yet not be productive due to stressful and competitive growing conditions.
• Even if you change your mind later and remove one of the species, the one that is left could be disadvantaged by a lopsided root structure developed early in life.

I'm not downing you idea. But you said you were looking for thoughts. Those are mine.

Good Luck........

Thanks Native - I really value your input....I know I have talked to you about of concepts before as well.....I am just too stubborn to give up I guess. I also do not mind the "negative perspective" (for the lack of a better phrase) - that is why I asked. To get as many different perspectives as possible....not all of them will be in my favor. I'm not looking for a pat on the back and a "go get'em" knowing I will fail.....there is no value in that.

Thanks to everybody for the feedback.....to be honest I may try it just for the hell of it..... Especially for the browse. I have some arrowwood seeds as well as plan on trying to get some elderberry cuttings as well.....maybe it's a bad idea, but maybe I can get it to work. As my sawtooth, chestnuts and SWO grow maybe I try some other mast shrubs as well or maybe I just plant them in an orchard type setting as well.....not sure yet. I just feel compelled to shift to more natural foods that require far less from me. I think it's better for my hunting and better for the habitat long term.....as much as I like playing in the dirt I think in some situations it may be somewhat counter productive.

 

[catscratch]

j-bird, my experiment might turn out a bust. If it is... no big deal!
I love thinking things through and trying to get stuff right the first time, but experimentation and "doing" is a lot of fun! I think you and I are both stubborn enough to "try it anyway" just to see what the hell happens.

 

[Native Hunter]

I love to experiment myself, and wish you guys luck. The good thing about it is that we aren't making life and death decisions. It's deer hunting and habit work.

Catscratch, you may be more successful than anyone thinks with your persimmon and chestnut. I took you some pictures of a beech and black gum in my yard. I built my house on a lot that was once where an old one room schoolhouse stood. We have many mature trees here, including a white oak that measures over 16 feet around a breast height.

These trees in the pics below are not that large compared to most in the yard, but they are large trees. The beech easily towers over 100 feet and the gum is close to it. The beech was loaded with nuts this year. The carving on the beech was made by school kids, who may have died of old age by now. Enjoy.

 

[catscratch]

I love to experiment myself, and wish you guys luck. The good thing about it is that we aren't making life and death decisions. It's deer hunting and habit work.

Catscratch, you may be more successful than anyone thinks with your persimmon and chestnut. I took you some pictures of a beech and black gum in my yard. I built my house on a lot that was once where an old one room schoolhouse stood. We have many mature trees here, including a white oak that measures over 16 feet around a breast height.

These trees in the pics below are not that large compared to most in the yard, but they are large trees. The beech easily towers over 100 feet and the gum is close to it. The beech was loaded with nuts this year. The carving on the beech was made by school kids, who may have died of old age by now. Enjoy.

Holy cow! ^^^ That is cool! Thanks for the pics. In my wildest dreams I don't imagine my experiment working nearly as well as those trees.

 

[THE LLC]

Tried to do this but my deer ate my "shrubs" to the ground.

 

[j-bird]

Tried to do this but my deer ate my "shrubs" to the ground.

I plan on planting the shrubs in the cages that protect the trees

 

[dogghr]

I love to experiment myself, and wish you guys luck. The good thing about it is that we aren't making life and death decisions. It's deer hunting and habit work.

Catscratch, you may be more successful than anyone thinks with your persimmon and chestnut. I took you some pictures of a beech and black gum in my yard. I built my house on a lot that was once where an old one room schoolhouse stood. We have many mature trees here, including a white oak that measures over 16 feet around a breast height.

These trees in the pics below are not that large compared to most in the yard, but they are large trees. The beech easily towers over 100 feet and the gum is close to it. The beech was loaded with nuts this year. The carving on the beech was made by school kids, who may have died of old age by now. Enjoy.

I swear Native, just when I think you can't one up your self. You and your Frankenstein trees. Aren't those two species shade tolerant for the most part?

 

[Native Hunter]

I swear Native, just when I think you can't one up your self. You and your Frankenstein trees. Aren't those two species shade tolerant for the most part?

LOL, it's not easy coming up with new things to keep an old mountain man like you amazed....

They are both shade tolerant - especially when young - and especially the beech. A small beech can set in what looks like a state of suspended animation for decades waiting for its chance at enough sunlight to take off.

What's interesting about this situation is that both are being shaded by a massive soft maple which towers above them. They go straight up for about 60 feet or more and then start turning out away from the heavy maple canopy above them. It is quite unusual looking.

I also find it interesting that of the original trees in this small patch of woods that these two trees are the smallest. There is another beech closer to the house that would make 3 of the one in the picture. I often wonder if this is because the two trees have been locked in conflict for all these years and have expended much of their energy fighting each other rather than growing and reaching their full potential.

Perhaps mankind could learn a lesson from this. Well, Grasshopper, that is my shot at deep thought for the day...maybe the whole week!!

 

[Chainsaw]

My take on this is that it is a good idea if you keep it not too ambitious. For example in the real world there will be plant growth under any trees grown in an orchard setting unless a stringent weed control program is in place. It might as well be clover or some other food plot type plant instead of a weed that is less helpful to the deer. It won't produce as much as in a food plot but it will pay its space as a bonus food for the deer. I would prefer clover as with minimum maintenance (annual mowing and a cleth treatment) you could get a lot of years out of it. I'm sure many guys on the forum have planted clover in their apple "orchards" and that it is working well for them. It is a proven plant for growing in partial shade. Briars might work in partial shade as well as pokeberry to name a couple. And of course in the wet spots jewel weed would be a winning secondary plant.

I have a spot I had planned to plant rye this fall under some pine trees that are trimmed high and have a south exposure; the rye won't grow all that well there maybe compared to full sun but it would be better than the grass that grows there now. And no I didn't get to it this fall. So yes as long as you don't try to grow apple trees under full canopied oaks or something similar, you are onto something constructive; there are possible winning combos that are better than what is growing on its own.