Starting my oak savanna this spring, need advice

[Chipdasqrrl]

Starting this Spring, I’ll be creating a ~5 acre oak savanna and I have some questions. I’ve decided to go with planting only regular White oaks because that is the only type of white oak that is native to my area in Northern Michigan. In the future I will be maintaining the savanna with fire.

1. What do you think the spacing should be? I’m thinking either 30x30 or 40x40 spacing.
2. Should I plant any other types of trees or bushes in the savanna?
3. What kinds of NWSG do you think I should plant? I was thinking either pure big bluestem or switchgrass, or some other type of mixture. I will probably have to frost seed.
4. What kinds of forbs should I plant?
5. How big should I let the oaks get before burning the savanna?
Any other advice?
Thanks

 

[weekender21]

I was watching one of Dr. Grant Woods YouTube episodes recently. He manages several oak savannas on his "proving grounds" property in the Ozark's. He mentioned that most of the oaks in the savannas they burn are chestnut oaks. He said the bark on those trees was thicker than other oak species and tolerated fire better. They specifically mentioned not burning white oaks.

I have no experience burning either but something I thought might be helpful.

 

[Chipdasqrrl]

I was watching one of Dr. Grant Woods YouTube episodes recently. He manages several oak savannas on his "proving grounds" property in the Ozark's. He mentioned that most of the oaks in the savannas they burn are chestnut oaks. He said the bark on those trees was thicker than other oak species and tolerated fire better. They specifically mentioned not burning white oaks.

I have no experience burning either but something I thought might be helpful.

I watched that episode as well just yesterday, Grant explained that the first fires in that particular area were extremely hot due to the dead cedars being burned, and the chestnut oaks were able to survive it because they are extremely fire tolerant compared to other oaks.
I believe all oaks in the White oak family are fire tolerant, it’s just that some are more tolerant than others. Regular white oaks are moderately fire tolerant, so they should work in my situation. I will certainly try to keep the fires from getting too hot for the white oaks though.
Thanks


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[j-bird]

I would suggest planting a mixture of oaks if you can (red and white). You don't want all your eggs in one basket. I would also plant the oaks heavier than you intend and then simply remove the weaker ones over time to maintain the sunlight level you will need. As for shrubs....I would simply look at what is native in your area that is beneficial to wildlife and plant them in little bunches here and there. As for the grass...I am really only familiar with switchgrass....and man does it burn hot! Also the switchgrass I have the grass actually gets 5 feet tall or so...so I am not sure if that creates the savanna you are looking for or if you want something a little shorter... When I envision a savanna - I envision a shorter native grass....but that's just me. With the forbs...again just add what is native in your area. The soil may provide some for you as it is. I get lots of ragweed (giant and common) naturally....as well as some different flowers and the like.

Sounds like a very interesting project....

 

[THE LLC]

I was watching one of Dr. Grant Woods YouTube episodes recently. He manages several oak savannas on his "proving grounds" property in the Ozark's. He mentioned that most of the oaks in the savannas they burn are chestnut oaks. He said the bark on those trees was thicker than other oak species and tolerated fire better. They specifically mentioned not burning white oaks.

I have no experience burning either but something I thought might be helpful.

He explained to me they aren't "chestnut" oaks as we know them. Unless I misunderstood him, I think they are what we know as Post Oaks. "Chestnut" is a local Ozark name for post oak. At least that's how I took it.

 

[OkieKubota]

I know less than 4” diameter white oaks don’t handle even cool burns very well...I have killed a bunch with just leaf burns in the woods...

 

[THE LLC]

Which is EXACTLY what I intend to do on April 22!!! That and a bunch of sweetgums, maples, sparkleberry, cedars, etc., etc.

 

[Chipdasqrrl]

I would suggest planting a mixture of oaks if you can (red and white). You don't want all your eggs in one basket. I would also plant the oaks heavier than you intend and then simply remove the weaker ones over time to maintain the sunlight level you will need. As for shrubs....I would simply look at what is native in your area that is beneficial to wildlife and plant them in little bunches here and there. As for the grass...I am really only familiar with switchgrass....and man does it burn hot! Also the switchgrass I have the grass actually gets 5 feet tall or so...so I am not sure if that creates the savanna you are looking for or if you want something a little shorter... When I envision a savanna - I envision a shorter native grass....but that's just me. With the forbs...again just add what is native in your area. The soil may provide some for you as it is. I get lots of ragweed (giant and common) naturally....as well as some different flowers and the like.

Sounds like a very interesting project....

I know that Red oaks can tolerate some fire, but do you think they would handle frequent fire?
I think I want to stick with the larger spacing not only to save $ on buying cages, but I assume that some oaks won’t make it and I want to have some open areas as opposed to the entire area being covered in oaks. So I will let the weak ones die out on their own and not replant them.
Thanks


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[Chipdasqrrl]

And I am also going to have to make a decision on what I want the understory to look like. It feels like I have to choose between planting a lot of tall grasses that the deer will use for cover, or shorter grasses like little bluestem that i believe will make for a beautiful park-like setting. This would also make a lot of wildflowers visible...
I don’t know... what do you guys think?


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[dogghr]

While mature oaks, ie, 20+ yo thrive on fire, young trees will prob be destroyed with burns. Especially if you are going to burn a hot native grass amongst them. Possibly might clear good area around each tree for a cool burn within them. And natures fire that once promoted mature oak forests only typically occurred every 10 years or so.. Research old growth eastern forest and the effect and advantage fire can have on oak but not the age or frequency you seem to be planning. Quite honestly, your children will be the ones to enjoy the savanahh, not so much you. But thats not a bad thing.
Some don't realize the sand dunes of western MI were created by intensive/abusive logging after the Chicago fire a century ago in the effort to provide timber to rebuild the city. They are not a natural occurance in that area.

 

[Chipdasqrrl]

While mature oaks, ie, 20+ yo thrive on fire, young trees will prob be destroyed with burns. Especially if you are going to burn a hot native grass amongst them. Possibly might clear good area around each tree for a cool burn within them. And natures fire that once promoted mature oak forests only typically occurred every 10 years or so.. Research old growth eastern forest and the effect and advantage fire can have on oak but not the age or frequency you seem to be planning. Quite honestly, your children will be the ones to enjoy the savanahh, not so much you. But thats not a bad thing.
Some don't realize the sand dunes of western MI were created by intensive/abusive logging after the Chicago fire a century ago in the effort to provide timber to rebuild the city. They are not a natural occurance in that area.

You’re right, the oaks won’t end up doing much for me, but I will certainly enjoy creating a diverse understory. You make a good point on clearing around the trees to prevent them from being burned.
I know exactly what you’re talking about with the sand dunes, I’m surprised to hear that anyone on the forum knows about it. It’s a neat piece of history. The area was also hit with some devastating wildfires around the time of the Chicago Fire.


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[j-bird]

When I think of mid-western oak savanna - this is what I envision... (stolen from the internet)


I see a mixture of both tall and short grasses...lots of forbs and wild flowers mixed in...different aged and different types of oaks and even some shrubs like you mentioned. So I think with a little planning you can certainly develop this. IF this is what you have envisioned. You simply have to plant the shorter grasses in the areas where the oaks are planted. I would put in some winding areas of the taller grasses and toss in some brush/shrub coverts around and simply plan on mowing around the oaks/shrubs prior to any burning if possible. I would avoid "blocks" and straight lines....those are not natural.

Now this isn't all cover and it isn't all food, but based on what you described this is what I had in mind. The deer will use the taller forbs, grasses and even shrubs for food and cover and as the oaks mature you then create a seasonal food source.

I wouldn't make the oaks a plantation type plating...but I would certainly plant maybe double what I expected to survive...or simply build on the oak planting as time and funding allows...again you want a staggered age as well. It's far easier to remove a tree than it is to get one of a usable size.

For shrubs I would look into native ones offer both some level of cover and some sort of wildlife food (even if not for the deer). Consider you soils and the like as well... if I am way off base of what you have in mind then I apologize.... I'm just trying to envision what your envisioning...and sometimes that's not an easy thing to do with words.

Found this as well...figure you have seen this, but maybe not.

https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs144p2_010804.pdf

 

[Chipdasqrrl]

When I think of mid-western oak savanna - this is what I envision... (stolen from the internet)
View attachment 15397

I see a mixture of both tall and short grasses...lots of forbs and wild flowers mixed in...different aged and different types of oaks and even some shrubs like you mentioned. So I think with a little planning you can certainly develop this. IF this is what you have envisioned. You simply have to plant the shorter grasses in the areas where the oaks are planted. I would put in some winding areas of the taller grasses and toss in some brush/shrub coverts around and simply plan on mowing around the oaks/shrubs prior to any burning if possible. I would avoid "blocks" and straight lines....those are not natural.

Now this isn't all cover and it isn't all food, but based on what you described this is what I had in mind. The deer will use the taller forbs, grasses and even shrubs for food and cover and as the oaks mature you then create a seasonal food source.

I wouldn't make the oaks a plantation type plating...but I would certainly plant maybe double what I expected to survive...or simply build on the oak planting as time and funding allows...again you want a staggered age as well. It's far easier to remove a tree than it is to get one of a usable size.

For shrubs I would look into native ones offer both some level of cover and some sort of wildlife food (even if not for the deer). Consider you soils and the like as well... if I am way off base of what you have in mind then I apologize.... I'm just trying to envision what your envisioning...and sometimes that's not an easy thing to do with words.

Found this as well...figure you have seen this, but maybe not.

https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs144p2_010804.pdf

I’m thinking I want to create something like this:


You make good points, and the more randomized looking planting is something I’ve been thinking about lately but the problem is that I’ve already got about 30 oaks planted in rows. Not only is it a lot of work, but it would make me nervous to try transplanting a lot of oaks since they don’t transplant well, even though they’re all under 2ft.

I’m leaning toward a planting mixture of NWSG types, rather than to go for one of the extremes. I’m not sure which types of forbs will pop up from the seed bank after I begin burning, so that is probably a decision to make in the future - whether or not I even need to introduce any forbs



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[weekender21]

He explained to me they aren't "chestnut" oaks as we know them. Unless I misunderstood him, I think they are what we know as Post Oaks. "Chestnut" is a local Ozark name for post oak. At least that's how I took it.

I can’t confirm. They didn’t show any close enough pictures to tell. I do know Northern White Oak bark at least appears much thinner than all other oaks on my property.


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[Mennoniteman]

White oaks don't start producing for 20 years and don't reach full production until 50 years old. You might want to consider mixing in something that produces fruit faster.

 

[Oakseeds]

Perhaps this site would provide some useful information. Good luck!

https://oaksavannas.org/

 

[THE LLC]

I can’t confirm. They didn’t show any close enough pictures to tell. I do know Northern White Oak bark at least appears much thinner than all other oaks on my property.


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He explained it to me in an email that I apparently have deleted. Of course.

 

[j-bird]

I would not move the oaks.

You want to see what will come up....turn the dirt over in a small section and walk away.

I would plant a mix of grasses for sure. Just keep in mind that getting them established is the trick. Weed control is the biggest issue I had. Once it germinates I tried to mow the broadleaves as long as I could (and not actually cut the new grass)....after that then I had to go to chemicals. My switchgrass reached it mature height 5/6 feet in 2 full growing seasons.

 

[Native Hunter]

I have an oak planting but not an oak savanna. However, I do have a fruit and nut savanna. Persimmons, pears, apples, crabapples, chestnuts, hazelnuts, various shrubs, etc........ Here is what it looks like in the summer. I do maintenance in the spring and then let it go. No fire for me.

 

[TreeDaddy]

^^^^^^^^^^ a veritable Eden to habitat guys!!

bill