THE LLC
Well-Known Member
LOLOL. I love it. Problem is, the greatest majority of people (and hunters, too, even though they want admit it), believe exactly opposite of what Ronald Reagan said in your sig line. It's a mental issue, believe me.
When to throw in the towel?
- Thread starter PineSapJunky
- Start date
LOLOL. I love it. Problem is, the greatest majority of people (and hunters, too, even though they want admit it), believe exactly opposite of what Ronald Reagan said in your sig line. It's a mental issue, believe me.
PineSapJunky
Well-Known Member
I jumped at the chance to lease the 800 years ago due to the fact it allows me better access to the backside of our 1200 acres. Up to this point the locals who hunted it for free knew it was tough getting back there and helped themselves to our place. Furthermore upon walking the backside of our property I found a meth-house used for cooking meth on our land!!!! They would traverse through the 800 and setup shop on the backside of our 1200. It has cut down on a ton of sketchy people driving around. Unfortunately where I live we aren't necessarily known for our monster deer or abundant numbers but we do have them. Most folks who have that kind of disposable income to hunt with me have enough to have their own place or can go the same distance in the opposite direction and hunt some prime delta ground. Be rural and mostly low income around us you don't have the best crop of candidates to choose from. Furthermore everyone has 5-20 acres they live on and "hunt". I'm really the only person in my neck of the woods really trying to accomplish something. I throw in the 1200 acres on top to entice people but ultimately I end up getting taking advantage of. I am beyond blessed have this in my backyard of all things. I just wish I had neighbors like most everyone here. It would be fun
Drycreek
Well-Known Member
Slightly different tack here, but ain't it a damn shame that America has bred a bunch of lazy folks in the last couple of generations. I guess that's why socialism is getting lots of attention right now. Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now and try to think pure thoughts............it's not gonna be easy though, 'cause I'm a natural born pessimist.
MarkDarvin
Well-Known Member
Well that's the root of it all. This guy's camp is no different from anyone else's. People are naturally predisposed to piss away extra time and money they have in their lives as they get it. That's why camps fall apart as old duffers hang it up and new duffers don't pick it up.
I'd consolidate my efforts down to a property that gives me 5-6 spots to hunt and under high fence so I know I'll always have deer and be free of the folly of free resources.
PineSapJunky
Well-Known Member
I actually have two ponds/small lakes on the place. You can go out anytime during the season and limit out on wood ducks. Even now and again you might catch one of the bigger species. None the less it's fun and gives the dogs something to do. The big perk for my place is the turkey hunting. For our area there's not many places that can top mine
THE LLC
Well-Known Member
I wish I had 10,000 acres (preferably in north-central Kansas) and about six guys off this forum to help take care of it. Bout guarantee we'd grow the next world record. LOL
Chainsaw
Well-Known Member
Your dilemma Pine Sap is something we all face in one way or another. Given only the three options-Continue as you are-give the lease up and deal with unknowns--keep the lease in your name but sublease it to a known like-minded group, the last seems most attractive and continue as you are seems the least attractive. In your sublease you can throw in an access clause to give to access to the back side of your property. If it were me and I chose that route I would take on projects to put my own land into a better state including improving back acreage access and protection with the assumption that eventually the 800 lease and sublease plan could run out.
I have had opportunities to buy other adjoining properties here that I declined on. Buying them would have likely created even better hunting here. However there are still blinds, and stands, and fences and gates and drainage culvert pipes and a large lime pile and a dozen other projects sitting in the storage que waiting to be setup/implemented meaning the 605 acres my wife and I have is probably more than I can manage anyway so it probably was best that the property size was kept down to what it is. We really only need a few great deer to hunt and finally the current acreage is providing such so what would have been the point of owning and/or caring for even more land? Applying that question to your dilemma seems to me to make the decision easy.
I have had opportunities to buy other adjoining properties here that I declined on. Buying them would have likely created even better hunting here. However there are still blinds, and stands, and fences and gates and drainage culvert pipes and a large lime pile and a dozen other projects sitting in the storage que waiting to be setup/implemented meaning the 605 acres my wife and I have is probably more than I can manage anyway so it probably was best that the property size was kept down to what it is. We really only need a few great deer to hunt and finally the current acreage is providing such so what would have been the point of owning and/or caring for even more land? Applying that question to your dilemma seems to me to make the decision easy.
Cap'n
Active Member
To me it’s a no brainer. How often do you get to chose your neighbors. In this case you do. Lease the 800 to someone that you can control. Stop working that land. Let the guys leasing it do it if they want. That keeps the outlaws off your perimeter. You don’t lose money, you chose your neighbors and you can concentrate your money and efforts in to making your land the best it can be.
PineSapJunky
Well-Known Member
Its amazing to me the length people will go to try and get what you have. At the start of this post I referenced 800 acres that adjoins my family's 1200 acres that I was thinking about letting go. Over the years I have became great friends with a group of guys who live out of state. They've been looking for more land recently to add to their existing 600 acres so naturally I thought it would be a good fit. Since I had already paid the lease for this year I showed them a copy of the check and they essentially reimbursed me my money. I wasn't looking to make any money on the deal I just wanted to know who my neighbors would be. So here they are excited about having an additional 800 acres to hunt. They went about putting up feeders and getting things ready for this season. Late August, early September I get a call from the landowner (who I had a good relationship with) wanting to know who I had hunting with me this year. I told him some friends from Louisiana were. At that point he got upset stating he didn't want "no coonasses" on his place. He also stated he had been told that I was charging them a fortune that these guys had already been ran out of other clubs for killing everything that moved. Up to this point the landowner has never cared who I had hunting this place. He then proceeded to tell me that I had my run and it was time for someone else to be able to hunt his place and that I would need to get all of my stuff out within 2 weeks because he had someone else lined up. I tried reasoning with the man but it was useless.
Fast forward to this past weekend. It was my first weekend home since hunting season was open. Just out of curiosity I drove around and noticed 5 different trucks all with local Mississippi license plates. I noticed one so I stopped and waited (it was close to when most folks get out of the woods). I local hunter who I knew and at that point respected came out. I talked to him for a few minutes and he informed me that him and about 8-10 other guys all pitched in to lease the place. He then told me that he heard I had been making money off of them guys from Louisiana for a couple of years. At this point I'm pissed. Everyone of those guys who chipped in to lease that place had approached me about joining that place. Since they didn't like my rules at the time or the price they declined. So now worse case scenario has happened. Instead of having good neighbors who respect the land I now have a heard of local brown and downers who will hunt every waking minute. Furthermore a couple of them run deer dogs during the season. My reputation has been ruined, I've got more hunters surrounding me more than ever, I'm out $8k since I paid the guys from Louisiana back and the owner said he doesn't see where he needs to pay me back since I was making $15-20k a year off these guys for the past 6-8 years. So now what do I do? Get an attorney and push the issue. It really has turned ugly. All over something that is supposed to be relaxing and rewarding.
Fast forward to this past weekend. It was my first weekend home since hunting season was open. Just out of curiosity I drove around and noticed 5 different trucks all with local Mississippi license plates. I noticed one so I stopped and waited (it was close to when most folks get out of the woods). I local hunter who I knew and at that point respected came out. I talked to him for a few minutes and he informed me that him and about 8-10 other guys all pitched in to lease the place. He then told me that he heard I had been making money off of them guys from Louisiana for a couple of years. At this point I'm pissed. Everyone of those guys who chipped in to lease that place had approached me about joining that place. Since they didn't like my rules at the time or the price they declined. So now worse case scenario has happened. Instead of having good neighbors who respect the land I now have a heard of local brown and downers who will hunt every waking minute. Furthermore a couple of them run deer dogs during the season. My reputation has been ruined, I've got more hunters surrounding me more than ever, I'm out $8k since I paid the guys from Louisiana back and the owner said he doesn't see where he needs to pay me back since I was making $15-20k a year off these guys for the past 6-8 years. So now what do I do? Get an attorney and push the issue. It really has turned ugly. All over something that is supposed to be relaxing and rewarding.
Mennoniteman
Well-Known Member
I feel your pain, I've often tried to help someone and come out the loser. However, the owner definitely needs to give your money back since he didn't keep his part of the bargain, hopefully you had something on paper.
For myself, when it comes to my personal reputation and stories that someone may put out about me, I always say if that's the type of person that I am I deserve it, but if that's not the type of person that I am, nobody will believe it and the false rumor will quickly die.
For myself, when it comes to my personal reputation and stories that someone may put out about me, I always say if that's the type of person that I am I deserve it, but if that's not the type of person that I am, nobody will believe it and the false rumor will quickly die.
wbpdeer
Well-Known Member
Sorry to see this turn out bad for you. #1. I would want the landowner to have the fact that I was not making any $$ shown to him. I do believe the locals that paid him to get you off the land lied to him and he took what they said "Hook, Line & Sinker". Prove to him you didn't make a profit. #2. I would get a lawyer to get my $$ back where I paid for hunting rights that he denied - "Fraud" is when you take $$ for something and they don't provide it. #3. You need to do your best to forget that land and protect your land. I lived in south GA for three years in the late 1970s and I know from hunting with clubs that dogs on a deer's tail will not stop at anything to pursue their prey.
Game cameras will be needed to prove they are running dogs on your land. Get those cameras high and concealed. It takes a cool head to win a hot game. Keep your activities to yourself and don't tip your hand.
The landowner may calm down and come to realize you were not guilty of what the leasing jumping locals claimed.
Point #1 and #2 are clearly possible. #3 is the bad news. I fear your land and you will have bad experiences ahead with the new rift raft.
I am still trying to figure all of this out...you paid the lease for this fall hunting season to the owner or you knew how much it normally was for each year so you went ahead and sub-leased the place for that amount and was going to pay the owner but he declined because he didn’t agree with what you were doing?
I am a member of a deer lease and I know if I was to pay the lease and then have someone else pay me and hunt my spot there because I am only after a big deer at home the landowner would run me out on a rail because every hunter he lets on he has vetted. He doesn’t want people he doesn’t know or done the leg work on using his place...
I also see you have 1200 acres of land to hunt. I own 90 acres here at home and 25 acres where I grew up. At our 90 I have 8 hunting neighbors on my east line. 1 who has several hunters on my north, 3 on my west side and 2 to the south. I just make our place into what the deer want with my chainsaw, a little dozer work, some seed and lime, and my sweat. I get upset a bit when I hear the neighbors hunting with rifles during archery only but when it’s gun season I just do whatever I can to not push any deer and keep those does happy. Sometimes I get the biggest deer using the place and sometimes a neighbor or neighbor acquaintance does. I don’t show my neighbors what I got and they don’t talk to me about what they got. As long as we are all legal I am good...the thing is to make yourself the best hunter out there and just simply outhunt everyone else...
I am a member of a deer lease and I know if I was to pay the lease and then have someone else pay me and hunt my spot there because I am only after a big deer at home the landowner would run me out on a rail because every hunter he lets on he has vetted. He doesn’t want people he doesn’t know or done the leg work on using his place...
I also see you have 1200 acres of land to hunt. I own 90 acres here at home and 25 acres where I grew up. At our 90 I have 8 hunting neighbors on my east line. 1 who has several hunters on my north, 3 on my west side and 2 to the south. I just make our place into what the deer want with my chainsaw, a little dozer work, some seed and lime, and my sweat. I get upset a bit when I hear the neighbors hunting with rifles during archery only but when it’s gun season I just do whatever I can to not push any deer and keep those does happy. Sometimes I get the biggest deer using the place and sometimes a neighbor or neighbor acquaintance does. I don’t show my neighbors what I got and they don’t talk to me about what they got. As long as we are all legal I am good...the thing is to make yourself the best hunter out there and just simply outhunt everyone else...
Chainsaw
Well-Known Member
That's awful!! Besides a couple of good neighbors we also have brown its down guys both near and bordering us. They hold large drives and don't even take time to followup on wounded ones. Once in a while they shoot a great deer but enough monsters steer clear of them and sometimes I think their sloppy hunting actually makes ours better. However running deer with dogs is illegal here and if legal it would be a real problem.
I'm with Mennoniteman on the reputation concern, the truth eventually comes out and shame on whomever made up the story that you were making money on the lease with the Louisiana group. The landowner is being quite unreasonable here--what a bummer deal all around!
I'm with Mennoniteman on the reputation concern, the truth eventually comes out and shame on whomever made up the story that you were making money on the lease with the Louisiana group. The landowner is being quite unreasonable here--what a bummer deal all around!
PineSapJunky
Well-Known Member
I'm don't think they would intentionally turn dogs out on my place but since a dog can't read it will be hard to stop them. Dog hunters use this to their advantage. I've caught dogs before on my place and a trip to a neighboring humane society (especially ones that charge you to get your dog back) is worth my while. Couple that with the lose of their tracking collar and it adds up quick for the hunters. It just the added headache involved now. Hearing the dogs turned loose. I like my piece and quiet and since I only bowhunt the chance of me sticking a mature buck while being ran by a dog is slim to none.
PineSapJunky
Well-Known Member
Things are a little down here in the deep south. I pay him early in the year. Normally around late February or March for the upcoming year. He charges $10 per acre for a total of $8k. It's been that way for years. The way it works down here is normally one guy pays the "lease" and then he forms a "club" where each member pays dues. These dues can exceed the total amount of the lease if you include feed, plots, fertilizer in the dues (think turn key operation). Since these guys are my friends I wasn't going to make a dime off of them so i showed them what I paid to the landowner and they essentially reimbursed me for what I already paid for the year. This place has been a revolving door of folks since I've had it. With most people only hunting one year. I have never had to tell him who was hunting the place. He just wanted to make sure I had liability insurance out on it.
Out of towners especially Louisiana folks are looked down upon here as outsiders stealing from the locals. They aren't given the consideration into how much they help the local economy. Plus there's no win for someone to spend that much money to just blow the place to hell then leave. I find the locals are harder on the wildlife then people who live out of state.
I didn't really think of it as "sub-leasing" since I wasn't making any money on the deal plus I still could hunt it anytime I wanted. What it came down to was a bunch of locals got their feelings hurt that some folks from Louisiana were hunting the place and they couldn't so they got the landowner all fired up with lies to get him to yank the lease from underneath me. These guys will ruin the place in less than 3 years. You can kiss the turkeys goodbye (probably the main reason why they wanted it). They just take and never give back. Furthermore into why the landowner doesn't feel like he should pay me back is because I took down all of the gates and posts to the place. When I leased the land in the beginning there were none and he didn't seem inclined to out any up. So I put up 8 gates out of my own pocket. He also claimed that he has spend thousands of dollars fixing a washed out road that I didn't maintain. I produced an email stating the culvert to cross the creek had washed away during a flood years ago and that I had replaced it with another larger one (once again at my expense) only to be washed away again the following winter. It needed a bridge. So in the meantime I used a shallow water crossing and made sure all of the work I needed to do on a tractor was done before the winter rains came in. To the point. It's just a mess. I'm pissed/frustrated/ hurt/etc. My wife tells me to just let it go and it isn't worth the trouble. I want to fight it.
Your wife is smart...the only reimbursement I see the owner owing is what you paid him especially if you paid him and the other new guys paid him as well...we have people on our lease who have been there so long they built cabins and we do our own road work because we are the only people who use them. They will not be paid for them nor will any road work be reimbursed because we understood only hunting rights were involved. Plots are always just write offs because if we didn’t plant the landowner would not either and I don’t plant any plots down there anyway because all my wife and I have ever hunted was the deep woods...I don’t get a ton of joy sitting on a field but put me in a stand that I can see 50 yards max in a bunch of producing white oaks and I can hardly contain myself...really big deer may occasionally visit a food plot in daylight looking for a doe but they will always visit deep woods white oaks day or night...wind direction and how long you can sit are the only limiting factor!
A long time ago I got access to a large hog hunting property and went down with a few friends and we had a blast. The caretaker of the property put out an add that stated $100 per hog killed. We didn’t have any up front cost and it was free if you didn’t get anything. It didn’t matter who I brought and we always made sure we brought every hog out and paid the man. I put our exploits on a forum and I had some guys from another state contact me wanting to go hunting. I told them I was strapped and had already been down there twice that year and wasn’t looking to go again. I told them who to contact and set it up but they wanted me to guide because I knew where hogs could be found time in and time out. They told me they would pay for my trip and hotel room so I called the caretaker and set us up and I wasn’t even going to hunt. He said sure thing...the guys showed up in the closest town and I met them there. Since it was so late we got our rooms and the next morning had breakfast and headed to the ranch. When we got there the caretaker was not there at his house so since I had been there probably 30 times hunting already we just went on out...we got to our first spot and just got out of the truck when a truck pulled up with someone I did not know in it and they asked me what we’re we doing. I told them and he said we had to pay up front and it was always that way so we followed him back to the caretakers house and the owner of the ranch and the caretaker was there. The owner said it was $250 day per hunter and had always been and I told him how it had always been for me in the past. The caretaker flat looked at me and said “I have never done that”... the guys who came from another state didn’t really like the new arrangement and I wasn’t hunting but it would cost another $250 for me to be along so I paid the hunters for not only my room and meals but theirs as well and gave them money for gas because I said it was a certain way and it wasn’t. Apparently the caretaker didn’t know the owner who lived in New Jersey would be there with some hands and was caught with his hand in the cookie jar because he was pocketing the $100 per pig and no one was the wiser...I was caught in the middle and it happened at the least opportune time. The gents from another state told me not to worry about the money but reputation for me was worth being broke for a couple more months...since that time I have been asked to guide people for various hunts but other than looking at some other properties and telling them what I would do with it and not charging anyone to do it I have no interest in these landowner, lease, sub lease, guide games...I just pay my lease money to the owner and the other lease members can do the same but my most enjoyment for hunting is this little 90 acre patch of woods we call home...I may Hunt the lease a time or 2 the rest of the year but I am after only 1 of 2 bucks that I know of and both of them are at home...
Drycreek
Well-Known Member
Pine, my two cents is worth just what you’re gonna pay for it, so take it for what it’s worth. If it were me, I’d just forget about it. IMO, the only way you can win is if you have an ironclad contract. If you do, more power to you, but if it’s your word against his, you’re probably gonna lose.
Don’t get me wrong, it would piss me off to no end also, but at this point in my life I’d just walk away, guard my borders religiously, and prosecute the hell out of anyone who transgressed. Justice will be served if what you think will happen to his place comes to fruition. You have every right to want your money back if you paid up front and didn’t get what you paid for, but going to court is gonna cost you more than it’s worth unless you have a good attorney that will do it for nothing. The landowner is aware of that too I’m sure. These days, I wouldn’t trust a jury as far as I could throw them because the world we live in now seems to be devoid of common sense and fairness.
Good luck in whatever you decide to do.
Don’t get me wrong, it would piss me off to no end also, but at this point in my life I’d just walk away, guard my borders religiously, and prosecute the hell out of anyone who transgressed. Justice will be served if what you think will happen to his place comes to fruition. You have every right to want your money back if you paid up front and didn’t get what you paid for, but going to court is gonna cost you more than it’s worth unless you have a good attorney that will do it for nothing. The landowner is aware of that too I’m sure. These days, I wouldn’t trust a jury as far as I could throw them because the world we live in now seems to be devoid of common sense and fairness.
Good luck in whatever you decide to do.
