Video - Dog Hunting for Deer in N Florida

Discussion in 'Deer Hunting' started by EBOutdoors, Jan 6, 2018.

  1. SwampCat

    SwampCat Well-Known Member

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    It is a dying sport. I love to hear a good dog race. Shrinking hunting properties and the ever present quest to grow trophy deer has spelled the death of dog hunters. A lot of non-dog hunters have no idea of the dedication and knowledge of the area that is required to successfully kill deer using dogs. Most are not killed ahead of the dog - but sneaking away or sneaking back in as soon as the dogs pass.

    Enjoy your bit of history while it lasts.;)
     
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  2. Drycreek

    Drycreek Well-Known Member

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    The only issues I ever had with running deer with dogs is the tendency of some guys to take "Hail Mary" shots that resulted in wounded deer that weren't recovered, and the safety aspects of shooting through the woods with a background that changes by the second. You can say the same about deer drives though and that tradition is still practiced in lots of states.

    Anybody here ever hunted rabbits behind a pack of beagles ? About the same except the target is bigger. I've always subscribed to the notion that a deer doesn't much care how he's killed, it's us humans that make that distinction.
     
  3. dogghr

    dogghr Well-Known Member

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    Maybe a big difference is me and the other hunters are not driving around the field in our trucks while talking with radios while tracking the dogs with their collars while some dude stands on cab of his truck to shoot a rabbit that has been headed off by a vehicle driving considerable faster than a rabbit can run. At least bear and coon hunters get out of their truck and climb the mountains where the dogs have bayed their prey. I think there is a difference but what do I know.
     
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  4. Native Hunter

    Native Hunter Well-Known Member

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    By deer drives, I assume that you mean people driving deer to other people.

    I see a lot of difference in dogging and a deer drive. You could conduct a deer drive on a very small piece of property without having to trespass on the next property. The hunters could choose to make sure they stay on their side of the property line. You can't do that with dogs.

    As for rabbits and beagles - yes, except that you can rabbit hunt on a smaller property without trespassing on another property. I've already said that if no trespassing is going on and everything is legal - I'm fine with it.

    The issue is not how the deer is being hunted. The issue is trespassing and property rights.... However, I agree with dogghr and cringe thinking about the trucks, radios, etc.... I can tell you that it isn't for me, and I would quit hunting altogether if that was my only choice in hunting.
     
  5. Drycreek

    Drycreek Well-Known Member

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    When I was around dogs running deer, it was in a National Forest and tracking collars hadn't been conceived yet, much less invented. It goes without saying, or should, that I don't condone anyone tresspassing on someone's place no matter what kind of hunting they are involved in.
    Again, I would never condone tresspassing no matter the reason. If you will go back and read my post, you'll see that my comparison to drive hunting was the shooting at running deer and the safety of shooting at said target not being aware of who might be behind it. I've personally seen that happen on the one hunt that I was on in Kansas where the outfitter had us "pushing"deer in the middle of the day. This was with rifles, much less safe IMO than the shotguns and buckshot used by the only dog hunters I was around. Needless to say, that is not something I'll do again. I was more concerned about my safety than I was about killing a deer.
     
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  6. dogghr

    dogghr Well-Known Member

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    I was going to respond back but the ad for ladies bikinis on the page made me forget what I was going to say!!:) Enjoy the hunts. To each their own.
     
  7. Hoseman

    Hoseman Member

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    I live and hunt in the most prolific deer hound hunting area in the country in SE VA. The hunting atmosphere in our area would be very foreign to most members here as 90% or more of the gun hunting is done with hounds. We have a 6 week archery season followed by a 6 week firearms season where most people are members of large clubs that control the vast majority of the land both private and leased company land. The clubs have thousands of continuous acres and we have very few problems. We usually hunt blocks that are 1-3 thousand acres at a time and members draw stands in the woods, swamps, cutovers or fields and the standers are spread out for safety. We have one hunt in the morning and one hunt in the evening and do not truck hunt. When a dog leaves the area they usually do not leave our land but if they do it is on to an adjoining hunt clubs land and we catch their dogs and they catch ours if need be. GPS collars have helped immensely.

    I also bow hunt and still hunt during the seasons quite a bit and enjoy all methods. I often hear people say they would not enjoy hunting deer with dogs but I have never taken a guest who hasn't tried it before and he not beg me to take him again after witnessing it for himself firsthand. If hound hunting was banned in our area, half of the deer hunters would never buy a license again. It is part of the community and the way things have been done here for generations. It is exciting and the social portion of the hunt is a big part of it as well.

    The problems are happening in areas which are not as rural as our area or areas where it was very rural twenty years ago but there is more development recently. These once large tracts have been subdivided and the clubs do not have control of big, continuous chunks of land. And then there are outlaws that turn out dogs on 50 or 100 acres knowing full well their dogs will be on someone else's property ten minutes after releasing them. All of this is causing friction and understandably so. I do not have a solution but am sure there are regulations of some sort coming in the future. One thing that may help would be minimum acreage requirements. Common sense and respect are not a given in today's society as a whole and unfortunately it applies to the hunting community as well.
     
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  8. catscratch

    catscratch Well-Known Member

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    All for different styles of hunting; drives, dogs, stalking, stands, food plots, ag, rut, funnels, etc. I did tons of drives when I was a kid (always the pusher with a dog and a quail gun). It was a blast! I would try a dog hunt for deer in a heartbeat. I might or might not like it... won't know until I go.

    I'm all for all of it. The thing that concerns me is what everyone else has already hit on... trespassing. Dog hunters in general have a reputation of not recognizing boundary lines for their own sake. Coon hunters that run creeks all night, coyote hunters that drive back roads all over the county, etc. Not saying they all do it, it's just the reputation that has developed for whatever reason.

    I like your video. It looks like a neat experience.
     
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  9. pinetag

    pinetag Active Member

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    I agree with your sentiments Hoseman. As a native Virginian, I grew up dog hunting and did not start bow hunting/ML hunting until I was in college, where a buddy introduced me to those methods. I have since transitioned to where I almost exclusively stand hunt because that is my enjoyment and has been part of my hunting progression. I think every hunter goes through some sort of progression in their life. Now that I am in the process of purchasing land, stand hunting will be all i do. This past season was the first year where I was not a member of a hunt club that ran dogs during gun season. I was ok with that.

    I think I am one of the few in the middle on this issue because I can see both sides of the argument. The honest hound hunters simply want to retrieve their dogs and get back to hunting whereas stand hunters don't want their hunts interrupted by a hunting style that was forced upon them (especially when it's not legal to run in that season). Don't get me wrong, there are the guys who use "right to retrieve" as an excuse to hunt/trespass on another's property but I think overall this is a small %. Unfortunately, all it takes is that small percentage to give the perception that all hound hunters trespass or retrieve unethically. How does the saying go..."Perception is reality"?

    I think there needs to be some sort of compromise because the issue is going to get worse as the large tracts of land that used to exist get subdivided and you have more individual landowners. It's simple math. More landowners = more opportunity for conflict. If some regulations can be put in place to make these incidents fewer, then I'm all for it. A contiguous acre minimum is probably a good start to helping resolve some of these conflicts!

    I don't want to see hound hunting eliminated because it is a fun method and can be very effective and safe if done correctly. I have some great memories with my dad and grandfather of hunts where the dogs were coming our way and my heart was pounding! Me and my dad celebrating my first successful hunt as a young kid! Time spent socializing after the day's end playing cards in the clubhouse and telling stories! Maybe an "occasional" drink? There is an enjoyable social aspect to it for sure.

    I believe your last statement sums up the problem. Courtesy, politeness, and common sense would go a long way in solving this issue.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
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  10. Eric

    Eric New Member

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    As someone who grew up deer hunting with dogs in SE Va and has now transitioned to still hunting with bow, muzzleloader and guns, I feel like Pinetag and Hoseman, I have a similar take on this issue. I am sympathetic toward dog hunters however, the technology and practices used by those groups have created this conflict and they refused to reasonably address them. First of all, most dog hunters speak of the tradition, social aspects, comraderie, excitement of dog hunting. All of those aspects are also part of still hunting - they are not unique to just dog hunting. Anyone who has hunted in areas where dog hunting is NOT allowed will talk about the same things that they cherish as well. The "hunt" is almost secondary anywhere you have hunters. So if dog hunting went away, those aspects would not go away. Also, the technology now with tracking collars, GPS collars, bark collars that tell you which dogs are actually chasing deer, handheld radios, etc etc. fail to meet the definition of "FAIR CHASE" in my opinion. I believe state agencies and legislators will address these issues soon because they give an unfair advantage to "hunters." Also, there is a safety issue with dog hunting with guns - especially with buckshot here in SE VA. If you look at the hunting accidents each year in Va, the majority of gun related accidents involve dog hunters. The only other accident that comes close to having the poor safety record of dog hunters are hunters who do not use safety harnesses when treestand hunting. I would like to also address the right to retrieve laws in Va, some dog hunters obey the laws and follow them as written - no guns, must cross the property on foot. However it only takes one member of a hunt club to carry his gun or to drive through someones farm lot to forever ruin that trust. And that has already happened in many places and that trust wont be rebuilt overnight. Also, one issue that many people don't understand is that if a hunter kills a deer and it runs across the property line, (s)he cannot go retrieve it without permission, however that dog hunter can go get his dog without permission. That promotes trespassing and wasteful hunting. Another issue I would like to address is the health of the deer herd with dog hunting. Many hunters across the nation have issues with EHD. If you run deer with EHD you have essentially killed that deer without ever firing a shot. When a deer is infected with EHD, it has a fever that is deadly most of the time. If that deer is run by dogs, then the mortality rate greatly increases. Many dog clubs choose to not shoot deer when they know they have a EHD outbreak, but too late, the damage is done. Also, the wounding rate of deer with buckshot is tremdous. Unfortunately it is not calculable. Most deer hunters do not know at what distance to humanely shoot deer with buckshot (or in the case of this video rifles -300yds!!!) and most cannot judge that distance in a split moment when a deer pops out running. Therefore many deer are shot, wounded, run for upward of a couple miles, lay down in the water (usually) and die some days later. So why I may be sympathetic to dog hunters because I killed my first 30+ deer that way, it is not a humane way to hunt and the conflicts with landowners and other hunters outwieghs any likely solution. My honest opinion is that the end of an era is coming soon.
     
  11. Chainsaw

    Chainsaw Well-Known Member

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    All hunting styles are fully humane if good common sense and respect for the quarry are present. Not having been on any dog hunts in recent years since the advent of all of the so-called technological improvements, I'm really not in position to judge whether the new era dog hunts are less fair chase than those of yesteryear. I can tell you though that without a doubt a good single still-hunter in the day normally killed more deer than 6 guys driving deer or dog hunting deer day in and day out. Does that mean that because the single still-hunter was able to kill more deer than an average group of dog hunters that the still hunter was not fair chase? I don't really think that hunting deer with dogs is not fair chase; Once the hunt is on, when those deer know that they are being pursued they really show their stuff. Sure a lot get taken on those hunts but many more likely make fools of the pursuers.

    However I do not disagree that the lack of safety being referred to is exaggerated. Moving "standers" is not a safe practice for sure.

    The issue of trespassing of course is completely unacceptable. Even one time is too many. For that reason I too see the dog hunting as a fading deal that will continue to get smaller and smaller at least here. Here we do not have deer hunting with dogs that I am aware of; we do however have coyote hunting with dogs. There simply is no way to contain the dogs on a single property and more and more people do not accept the intrusion as most used to. The coyote hunters use tactics similar to the video on deer chasing; They do kill a lot of coyotes but I certainly would not call it not fair chase. The coyotes win quite often and most of the coyote hunter groups here are a great group of ethical sportsmen. However that is not the issue; trespassing is.
     
  12. Gator

    Gator Active Member

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    Only reason deer go nocturnal after the rut is because of the hounds constantly chasing them. Nothing better than a late season hunt on unpressured bucks coming to food.
     
  13. Gator

    Gator Active Member

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    I know here in Virginia that every single year there's an "accidental shooting" from guys running dogs. Every single year! Mix in an occasional house, car even horse last year. Yeah I want yahoos running around my house shooting at running deer with no idea of what is beyond that deer!
     
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  14. E_308

    E_308 Well-Known Member

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    I have always though it would be an interesting hunt. Reading the old stuff by Roosevelt and others makes it sound fun. That said with limited large tracks I am glad it is not legal in my state. The coyote hunters already think they (and their dogs) have a free pass.
     
  15. X-farmerdan

    X-farmerdan Active Member

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    I don't know why. I hunt with dogs and I hunt without dogs. My son, some 25 years ago asked why we do one so different than the other. When you're stand hunting you are hunting deer on the deer's terms. When you are hunting with dogs you are hunting deer on your terms.

    I enjoy the challenge of the former and the joy and comradery of the other.

    Here in Virginia hunting with dogs will slowly strangle itself with the expense of the dogs, land leases, this general disenchantment with the sport. Where we hunt with dogs, there's little conflict. The majority of small landowners who are not part of the chase know when the dogs are running are hit their parcels filled with hope and a little "free-rider" involvement! No problem. Enjoy it while you can. By the way, in Virginia, if you want to hunt where the dogs don't, go west of the Blue Ridge and there are two seasons ahead of the one where dogs are legal. Contrary to what you might hear, our state is very accommodating!

    When I saw the thread title I got excited. I thought it was my dog hunting video!
    This goes fast! Compresses a couple hours into seconds. You can slow it down by changing the replay speed in YouTube.


    It's described by BayEagle in the Virginia Deer Hunting forum...
    http://www.vahuntingforum.com/showthread.php?tid=10432&page=2

    BayEagle.jpg
     
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  16. X-farmerdan

    X-farmerdan Active Member

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    I read Pinetag and Hoseman....and you. Pinetag and Hoseman, I thought, had reasonable responses. I don't agree with all of their opinions, but I can't accept your assertions and opinions offered as facts.

    You write, "I am sympathetic toward dog hunters however, the technology and practices used by those groups have created this conflict and they refused to reasonably address them."

    You cannot be sympathetic and critical at the same time. What technology and what practices? Do you not use technology? And you think your practices are far superior? Perhaps they are. Let's make a list and then we can vote.

    Your write, "First of all, most dog hunters speak of the tradition, social aspects, comraderie, excitement of dog hunting. All of those aspects are also part of still hunting - they are not unique to just dog hunting. Anyone who has hunted in areas where dog hunting is NOT allowed will talk about the same things that they cherish as well. The "hunt" is almost secondary anywhere you have hunters. So if dog hunting went away, those aspects would not go away. "

    Maybe. I do it both ways and find the two experiences much different. I like both. Stand hunting is filled with tedium. Hunting with dogs has the potential to be filled with enthusiasm and action. Just my opinion. But, don't assume for me, I'd be just as happy if one style went away. You say the elements dog hunters enjoy wouldn't go away if hunting with dogs was abolished. The excitement of hunting with dogs would disappear, wouldn't it?

    You write, "...would like to also address the right to retrieve laws in Va, some dog hunters obey the laws and follow them as written - no guns, must cross the property on foot. However it only takes one member of a hunt club to carry his gun or to drive through someones farm lot to forever ruin that trust. And that has already happened in many places and that trust wont be rebuilt overnight. Also, one issue that many people don't understand is that if a hunter kills a deer and it runs across the property line, (s)he cannot go retrieve it without permission, however that dog hunter can go get his dog without permission. That promotes trespassing and wasteful hunting."

    As long as we're throwing around unsubstantiated assertions, I'll offer my own. You say some dog hunters obey the law. I'd say most all dog hunters obey the law. When you say it only takes one member of a hunt club....you reveal your true nature. You wish to paint the entire population with the faults of one individual and I hear a lot of that in this thread. I would contend that individual will be a thorn in your side regardless of what type of hunting you manage to insert as the best way. If you have evidence -- and not hearsay about which group is more law abiding, I'm listening.

    EHD? And dog hunting? Show me the science.

    The wounding rate with buckshot is tremendous? Show me the statistics.

    We can have a civil debate about how to control the level of deer population, but I doubt use of buckshot and EHD's spread related to hunting dogs are going to be factors. If they are, show me where it's been scientifically elevated to a possible cause of population decline.

    You write, "Also, the technology now with tracking collars, GPS collars, bark collars that tell you which dogs are actually chasing deer, handheld radios, etc etc. fail to meet the definition of "FAIR CHASE" in my opinion"

    Tracking collars help keep dogs where they belong. Tracking collars get dogs out of the hunting area at the end of the day. You use a tree stand? Unfair advantage. You hunt black powder? Modern equipment? Unfair advantage. You hunt with a compound bow? Unfair advantage.

    You write, "Also, there is a safety issue with dog hunting with guns - especially with buckshot here in SE VA. If you look at the hunting accidents each year in Va, the majority of gun related accidents involve dog hunters. The only other accident that comes close to having the poor safety record of dog hunters are hunters who do not use safety harnesses when treestand hunting."

    I can't find those numbers. I looked at Appendix 12 in the Virginia Deer Management plan and I don't see any mention of dogs and buckshot as contributory causes of hunting accidents. Some, not all, of those accidents DO happen in that season, but some number happen in archery and some in blackpowder season. Most are the unfortunate result of people who have no business hunting. I guess in your mind people who hunt with dogs lack the necessary character. Google and read "Virginia Hunting Accidents." Then do a fair compilation of what happened.

    You write, "So why I may be sympathetic to dog hunters because I killed my first 30+ deer that way, it is not a humane way to hunt and the conflicts with landowners and other hunters outwieghs any likely solution. My honest opinion is that the end of an era is coming>"

    We don't need your sympathy. And if you add up the votes, you don't have them. In the end you might get your way as the general attraction of hunting declines.

    Regardless of your style of hunting I encourage all to practice sportsmanship. Obey the laws. Be safe. And stop being snarky. Both sides of this debate have developed sharp edges. I'm particularly disappointed by many of you who I respect, being critical of a practice in which you have not been involved and have only the slightest grasp of the facts. If you have research or numbers or solid evidence I'm all ears. But just because some 'elite' hunter gets his or her panties in a knot doesn't make a compelling case.

    I know I've not convinced anyone to change their positions, but this certainly has helped me understand the problem.

    By the way, I checked and I think there are more square miles in Virginia where dog hunting is prohibited than allowed. I'll have to check my math.

    Dogs May Not Be Used For Deer Hunting:
    • West of the Blue Ridge.
    • East of the Blue Ridge in Bedford, Fairfax, Franklin, Henry, Loudoun, Northampton, and Patrick counties, and Amherst (west of Rt. 29), Campbell (west of Norfolk Southern Railroad), Nelson (west of Rt. 151), Pittsylvania (west of Norfolk Southern Railroad), and the City of Lynchburg.
    • On Sunday while in possession of a weapon.
    • When hunting during archery and muzzleloading seasons and on the Youth and Apprentice Deer Hunting Weekend.
    • On many military areas. Check individual Post regulations.
    • On Amelia, Cavalier, Doe Creek, Featherfin, Mattaponi, Merrimac Farm, Pettigrew, Chester F. Phelps, G. Richard Thompson, and Ware Creek Wildlife Management Areas.
    • During the first 14 hunting days of the firearms deer season in Madison and Greene counties.
     
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  17. FL Plotter

    FL Plotter Active Member

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    Not sure what I want to end sooner....dog hunting in Florida....or the loooooong responses on this thread.

    Soooooo, what's better .270 or 30/06?
     
  18. Eric

    Eric New Member

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    X-FarmerDan Thanks for reading. I encourage some intelligent debate and conversations about this situation. I am someone who has tried to inform the dog hunting community on the opposing views because of the unique situation I am in.

    I would like to address some of the points you bring up.

    You say "You cannot be sympathetic and critical at the same time." Sure I can, as someone on the inside of dog hunting clubs in possibly the most dog hunted county in Va....I definitely can. Just like Pinetag, Hoseman and a host of others who are part of dog clubs down here. They should be the most critical of their own clubs because their hunting style and legacy depends on it. So they are the most critical of themselves and probably sympathetic to their cause as well.

    You ask "What technology and what practices?" I am referring to the use of live GPS tracking collars with bark collars that tell you exactly where the dogs are in real time and tell you which ones are actually chasing deer. You and I both know, active hunters will only chase the dogs that are chasing deer and leave the dogs that are milling around in the woods not chasing. The bark collars tell you which ones those are. They also show you where exactly the dogs are in real time....so much for getting on a stand and staying there 1/2 a day and hope a dog runs a deer by you......ahhhh the good ole days of dog hunting....where is that? Nope its release the hounds and jump in the truck and get around in front of them as soon as possible so no one else gets there first. The practices I refer to are the legalized trespassing - in a truck through someones yard with a loaded gun. Those were illegal before and are still illegal now.....it will stop. If the dog hunting community wont police themselves, then someone will shut them down completely. PERIOD.

    You say "You wish to paint the entire population with the faults of one individual and I hear a lot of that in this thread." Speaking of the one bad apple.... My response is your community has the spotlight shined squarely on you and you are only as strong as your weakest member. Those members are making a huge black eye for you and you refuse to address them. See the last sentence in the paragraph above......someone will stop the bad apples with the rest of you unless major overhauls are made.

    You ask about "EHD? And dog hunting? Show me the science." If you are so concerned about your deer herd, have a conversation with a wildlife biologist. I know a couple - very well - ask them about it. You're right, there isn't much science on it because it takes a university to do a study like that. Its probably a Ph. D level project and those need to be funded through state agencies generally so the money is not always there. But in a private moment, any biologist will tell you they don't want to really know because it has a VERY detrimental effect on an individual deer's health.

    X-farmerdan you say "The wounding rate with buckshot is tremendous? Show me the statistics." How many shots have you taken in the last 5 years with buckshot? How many has your club taken? How many deer have you/your club killed in that time? Do you have a kangaroo court that takes $1 or cut a shirt tail when you "miss"? How many of those are complete misses. Probably not as many as you think. One buckshot doesn't make a big hole and wont necessarily kill a deer, but that infection will.

    You write "Tracking collars help keep dogs where they belong." No they don't....if they actually did then we could get rid of the right to retrieve law and many of the issues would be a mute point.

    You write "I looked at Appendix 12 in the Virginia Deer Management plan and I don't see any mention of dogs and buckshot as contributory causes of hunting accidents." I am VERY familiar with the Deer Management Plan. Ask your local CPO what proportion of deer hunting accidents are results of hunting with buckshot (and in front of dogs). Other than treestand accidents, its the number one cause of injuries. Some years its number one.

    Lastly, you write "We don't need your sympathy. And if you add up the votes, you don't have them. In the end you might get your way as the general attraction of hunting declines." I'm not giving you sympathy, but what I am giving you is some insight that the dog community and your political leadership refuse to address. See where I stand I hear many sides of this argument. I may be the only person in the State that can say that. I communicate things spoken against dog hunting to dog hunters. I also communicate issues from inside the dog hunting community to people on the other side and to people that are making those decisions. I don't have all the answers, but from my unique - and it is unique - position, I can see both sides. I know the good an bad of both. I also know all the dirty little secrets of both sides. Votes? Do you think this a popularity contest? Its not. The latest vote on fining dog owners for each time a dog trespasses was just a shot over the bow. And what the dog hunting community thought was "YAY...we won!!!" Open your eyes, you better get your act together because the next time it goes in front of the legislature, you will not be as lucky. And DGIF wont have any say in protecting you. If you go through DGIF to reform dog hunting then they will have a say. But the majority of the dog hunters don't get it.

    The following goes not just to X-farmerdan, it goes to everyone on this forum................The questions and concerns I bring up are difficult to address there's no doubt. But they need to be asked. I know biologists, dog hunters, still hunters, legislators etc may not want to know the answers to these questions because of the new set of concerns it brings up. If and when there is a link in deer mortality and EHD, then they'll close dog hunting season in those areas where EHD is widespread. If the public knew about the GPS and bark collars and how they were used, do you think they would consider that fair chase? Finally, if dog hunting goes away in Va, then it affects every single hunter ......and not in a good way. It severely hampers the financial capacity of DGIF, it also puts us in poor standing with other hunters because they say if you did not protect dog hunters, then why would you protect me?

    Address the issue at its core otherwise all hunting is in danger.
     
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