William Allis
New Member
I am from WNY and wonder if anybody in my area is using Throw and Grow. Would like to know your mix, planting dates and success.
Bill
Bill
Throw N Mow thread...
- Thread starter OkieKubota
- Start date
David
Active Member
I'm reading and thinking about this subject. I have tons of questions. one in particular.
how can the thatch created by the previous crop being rolled/crimped both supress weeds and benefit the planted crop. I understand the benefits of moisture retention, temperature reduction, pH, earthworms, etc.....but seems to me that would by default also promote the native seed bank.
granted most of what I read is from ag related articles and the famrers probably have a smaller weed bank than my plots.
I have fallow fields adjacent to my plots and I have plots planted on top of recently converted fallow fields which contain millions upon millions of seeds.
i would compare it too the mulch around my fruit trees. it helps alot, but the weeds grow like crazy in the mulch. the main reason the mulch helps reduce weeds is only because it's a great target for herbicide application. now a weed mat.....those babies work!
how can the thatch created by the previous crop being rolled/crimped both supress weeds and benefit the planted crop. I understand the benefits of moisture retention, temperature reduction, pH, earthworms, etc.....but seems to me that would by default also promote the native seed bank.
granted most of what I read is from ag related articles and the famrers probably have a smaller weed bank than my plots.
I have fallow fields adjacent to my plots and I have plots planted on top of recently converted fallow fields which contain millions upon millions of seeds.
i would compare it too the mulch around my fruit trees. it helps alot, but the weeds grow like crazy in the mulch. the main reason the mulch helps reduce weeds is only because it's a great target for herbicide application. now a weed mat.....those babies work!
Mennoniteman
Well-Known Member
Throw-n-mow isn't supposed to replicate mulch, it's supposed to work as a weed mat. And a seed bank that's buried/undisturbed won't have a high percentage of germination. Also, throw-n-mow is a type of no-till, and there's still no system of no-till that works with zero herbicides, that's the holy grail of organic and no-till researchers right now, so most people still need to apply some glyposate along with the throw-n-mow planting. The rolled/crimped process turns into mulch the following year and benefits your soil that way once you do a second throw-n-mow on top of it and the first throw-n-mow is now partly decaying. So, to summarize, throw-n-mow is supposed to replicate a weed mat with just enough sunlight getting through to germinate the seeds that were previously broadcast on top of the ground.
When throw-n-mow is functioning properly it can't be beat, but the times it fails you feel like just taking a stick and going out and beating the ground.
shawn cox
Well-Known Member
I have used a lot of throw n very successfully. To me the benefit of throw n now is to benefit the soil but it will also benefit you by not disturbing the soil to expose a whole new level of the weed seed bank. The thatch or rolled and crimped plant material will protect the ground from drying out therefore promoting the seed you put out to germinate. Yes you will have some weeds germinate but not even close to how it would be if you tilled the soil. After several seasons of doing a throw n mow on a plot with proper ph, you will really notice a decline in how many weeds you will have to deal with.
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Mennoniteman
Well-Known Member
In plots that I want to throw-n-mow that have a bad existing broadleaf weed problem I'll start with small grain (fall planted if possible, or spring oats), then when the small grain is 4-8" high in mid-spring I'll hit the broadleaf weeds in the small grain with 24 oz. per acre of 2,4-D. That's a cheap, yet very potent herbicide that will kill everything except the grain. Then after that, if there's any weeds left I'll hit it with glyphosate right before the throw-n-mow brassica planting in mid-summer for a fall plot.
USC country
Member
We tried tnm with corn into rye on this part of our plot. It worked but we are going on 2 weeks with no rain so we haven’t been able to get the second round of fertilizer down. We have a tractor with a disc but we don’t have a planter. We used an earthway seeder on another section that we disced and got nice rows. It takes some walking but it really wasn’t that bad. You just have to fill it up at the end of each row. Next year we will try to use the seeder in the rye and see what happens. We really just wanted to see if the corn would grow in the rye. We did spray this field but held off on the fertilizer hoping we will get some rain in the near future.
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What’s the difference in thatch and duff?
I’ve read this on various msg boards and I heard it from Grant Woods on the Wired to Hunt podcast — that you should burn off any clippings/duff to allow for better seed to soil contact, for TnM. I thought this was the very thing that was supposed to be left to decompose and feed the crop and earthworms!?
I’m asking, not to be obtuse, but because I’ve been doing TnM for several years with very inconsistent results and I want to get better.
I’ve read this on various msg boards and I heard it from Grant Woods on the Wired to Hunt podcast — that you should burn off any clippings/duff to allow for better seed to soil contact, for TnM. I thought this was the very thing that was supposed to be left to decompose and feed the crop and earthworms!?
I’m asking, not to be obtuse, but because I’ve been doing TnM for several years with very inconsistent results and I want to get better.
MarkDarvin
Well-Known Member
Spelling. That's it.
Read up on carbon to nitrogen ratios. It'll help explain the risks and benefits of thatch management. Heavy and high carbon duff can be hard on heavy and high carbon crops that follow. Couple ways you can go about it to avoid troubles.
1. Grow a blend that has high and low carbon varieties in it.
2. Alternate between low and high carbon crops.
Soybeans love growing in duff. Corn needs extra nitrogen. If your duff is accumulating faster than you're decomposing it and it's causing you problems, you're growing too heavy of a carbon mix.
Crimson n' Camo
Active Member
We shouldn't clump all the native "prairie" or field species together and label them all as "weeds". A weed is any plant growing where we don't want it to be....not any plant that isn't store bought. If you're on a year round program where you plant summer and winter then you could call the things that come from the seed bank "weeds" if you didn't want them competing with your planted crops. Hopefully you're planting a well rounded rotation. However, if your just planting fall cereal grain plots and such then you shouldn't look at the native summer species with the same eye as the year round cropper. They are not just all "weeds". I don't do much of squat in the summer anymore. Right now I have between 25-30 different native summer species growing in my field and probably 15-20 of those are being hammered by the deer. It a nice balanced mix of grasses and broadleafs with a smattering of legumes. Its producing loads of organic matter in a nice balanced mix that won't bog down the system. Its providing the deer with tons of quality forage and its also protecting and recycling my nutrient bank that I've built up over the last 8-9 years. We've all come a long ways in changing our mindset since this whole movement began....and most anyone participating in this thread likely see planting food plots in a whole different light than they did in the past.....but generally speaking we've still not come around to seeing the whole picture with "weed" and native plant specie management. Many still look at it the same way they always have even though they see much of the other aspects of foodplotting with a completely different perspective.
KSQ2
Well-Known Member
I like the idea of this, but most of the places I plant in the fall, I try to get in and out as quickly as possible. It seems the biggest drawback to me would be getting nitrogen down. That's one reason why I've always tilled, to incorporate the urea I've spread. I've read of many of you waiting until it rains to get the nitrogen portion of your fertilizer applied, that's not very feasible in my situation. Am I wrong on this?
MarkDarvin
Well-Known Member
Use ammonium sulfate. It's a lower nitrogen content, but it'll sit there on the surface until it's rained in, no loss like urea sitting on the surface.
George
Well-Known Member
You can't buy better plants for deer food and crop rotation than plants such as lambsquarters and pigweed.
G
Elkaddict
Well-Known Member
I’m in northern Catskills, not WNY. I’ve played around with it with mixed results. Going to do a couple more plots this year. I find I need to throw double the seed and plan on far slower germination. Still, it does work. I think you need to go into it with different expectations than normal planting.
George
Well-Known Member
catscratch
Well-Known Member
Olive, pigweed, locust, marestail, sericea... they all rank about the same to me. I'll let you guys guess if it's a favorable or spawn of hell ranking.
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George
Well-Known Member
I think for the sake of this conversation we should separate redroot pigweed from palmer amaranth and water hemp.
Dr. Jim Bio maybe
G
Dr. Jim Bio maybe
G
dogghr
Well-Known Member
Bear, deer, and bird love my pigweed for food and cover in the fall even with the ground covered in acorns. In addition its a great screening cover. But I guess like anything it could get out of control for some. Selective spraying or mowing for either cool or warm season plant succession is the key.
If one has what they deem as invasives, then you should evaluate as to why that plant can grow there so profusely. Often it is problem with the soil, but more often it is a mismanagement by man and what he perceives as the optimum choice of plants. I've showed with my Buffalo plot how weed issues such as thistle, is nonexistent there, whereas my adjacent more "perfect" clover plot deals with that thistle growth. Plants are fulfilling a need in an area often because our manipulation of the forests, fields, or soils is actually helping to promote that influx. And rather than deal with our inept treatment of the land, then we jump on some chemical or mechanical alternative that is expected to be our savior, and yet we end up still frustrated because the issue continues since we never acknowledged the actual original problem. It may be anything from poor soil management to poor timber control, to poor planting choices or even a lack of, or too much , water retention abilities of the soil.
Something always grows, just look at an abandoned asphalt parking lot. Nature is never static and doesn't bother to ask man his opinion.
If one has what they deem as invasives, then you should evaluate as to why that plant can grow there so profusely. Often it is problem with the soil, but more often it is a mismanagement by man and what he perceives as the optimum choice of plants. I've showed with my Buffalo plot how weed issues such as thistle, is nonexistent there, whereas my adjacent more "perfect" clover plot deals with that thistle growth. Plants are fulfilling a need in an area often because our manipulation of the forests, fields, or soils is actually helping to promote that influx. And rather than deal with our inept treatment of the land, then we jump on some chemical or mechanical alternative that is expected to be our savior, and yet we end up still frustrated because the issue continues since we never acknowledged the actual original problem. It may be anything from poor soil management to poor timber control, to poor planting choices or even a lack of, or too much , water retention abilities of the soil.
Something always grows, just look at an abandoned asphalt parking lot. Nature is never static and doesn't bother to ask man his opinion.
