Regarding culling

[Baker]

I understand there are lots of opinions and beliefs about culling. Some believe you can actually shift genetic traits within a herd. Others view it more as an overall population strategy. And there seems to be unlimited opinions on the age to start culling . I have no interest in trying to convince anyone of anything.

I will share that we don't consider removing a deer till he is at least 4 and frequently they get older. The buck in the picture represents the bottom end of deer we remove from the farm. Best guess he's 6 though he could be 5-7 ??? . We tried to get him last yr but never saw him excepting on camera.

To me the question a deer like this represents is whether you would prefer to shoot this deer [ killed w bow ] or a youngster that a) you can never be sure what his future potential would have been or b) would most likely not

 

[Baker]

Last clause didn't post? b) should state that any youngster shot as cull would most likely not be this well developed.

Apology for pic quality. I didn't take it.

 

[boot]

http://deerhunterforum.com/index.php?threads/cull-bucks.9/

I think its all about the hunters preference, to a lot of people that buck would be a dream buck to shoot and thats fine. And many land managers would like to shoot this buck under the belief that a dead buck can't spread his genetics, I think it all comes down to personal opinion and hunting and land management goals

 

[j-bird]

Baker - first of all you are one of the few folks that I think use the term "culling" in it's proper context. I see and hear so many folks using it in a free range situation where it simply isn't the intensely managed situation that you have. Far too many folks manage or hunt 50 acres or even a couple hundred and try to use the term as some sort of justification for shooting a young buck and in my opinion it's simply a bunch of BS in that situation. I personally don't think you can significantly impact antler genetics in the average free range situation unless you have a lot of cooperation in those efforts. I don't want to get into the whole "fence" issue - that isn't the basis of your post here, but it can't be ignored either. It is the mechanism in which you can reach the level of control that you have. The thing is that you have an intensely managed situation where you do control the inputs and outputs of the deer you have and as such you have to weigh how those inputs are utilized.

In your situation I think you are doing the right thing by giving the deer every chance to express it's antler potential. Your "cull bucks" would be a true trophy by many, many standards. I may NEVER see a buck like that on my farm in my lifetime. There are so many things we still don't know about deer and only the data you have on your deer can support or refute your concept of shooting them when they are smaller based on antler performance. I would assume that some sort of general rule could be created in your situation where you can create some sort of curve that relates age and antler score to their future potential. Something like a deer at age 3 should measure close to X to reach a score of Y by age 5 and if that deer at age 3 doesn't meet X he more than likely will never reach Y - and thus time to put him on the cull list and not "waste" 2 or 3 more years on him.

IF that could be established - then, and only then would I consider "culling" those bucks earlier to provide more resources for the remaining deer. I personally would need a decent amount of data to define those "minimums" and they may not help much either. Without the data to support some sort of "potential curve" your guessing and better off letting the deer reach true maturity and then decide. It's still not going to be a science, but more of a guideline. Obviously even in your condition you have other inputs into that curve to consider as well. Dry years, wet years, and the availability or changes in what is available to those deer, and even the number of deer can certainly impact them as well.

Even your deer are not cattle (at least that I am aware of) - they are not ear tagged and handled and measured and weighed and all those things. They may not be free range deer, but they are not cattle. So my opinion is that if I was in your shoes I would continue to allow the deer to reach maturity unless you see some sort of obvious deficiency earlier. I would think you would have no shortage of hunters willing to harvest your "cull bucks" based on the above picture.

I don't know if I answered your question or not. If I had data to develop a guideline and he fell below that early - shoot him. If you don't have that data and guideline - then you let him reach maturity and then decide unless there is some sort of grossly obvious issue.

 

[dogdoc]

Well I am one that doesn't believe "culling" to be effective in changing genetics of a free range herd but if that is what you call a "cull" buck then I wanna go hunting with you

Very nice buck--I would be very proud to display that on my wall. If that was hanging on my wall then every other buck hanging on my wall would be considered a genetically inferior with that one the true monster!

todd

 

[OkieKubota]

Baker if that deer is on your Louisiana Property then I truly do believe culling is what you are doing. That deer only has a limited amount of space to him and if you kill him he is completely out of the future gene pool. The problem is I am sure that buck has bred a bunch of does in his lifetime so you may be dealing with genetic issues from both buck and doe fawns thrown by him. If he was a wild free range deer then there is less of a problem because his offspring can relocate but in your situation that is impossible so "what happens in the fence, stays in the fence"...

Our deer lease is a really weird study for me. The area is just rank with Big 6, 7, and 8 point bucks. I have hunted there since 1998 and in the beginning years we killed a few bucks with more points than the 6,7,and 8 rule we have now but over the years the deer are all definitely starting to lean to less than 8 points now with Big, Mature 6 point bucks being the norm rather than the exception. I know some guys really like "Big 6's" but I really am not 1 of them. I have killed my share of these but the next year we have more. I would venture to say that we have at least 15 big mature 6 point bucks on our 1500 acres right now whereas back about 10 years ago we only identified 1 and I killed that one. Have you ever noticed a wild deer area that the bucks had a tendency to all be cut from the same mold like that? We run about 30 trail cameras on the property and it is the same all over it. We did get a picture of 1 10 pointer this year and several of the guys want to get him but I have been trying to tell them he is a 3.5 yr old buck and it might be best to let him walk...not my choice though. If he walks out in front of them he is done...

 

[catscratch]

I've hunted the same properties for decades. I've watched genetic trends change or shift over the yrs. I've watched an area heavy with perfect 10's and 12's, start growing points towards the inside of the rack. Had every deer in the area with short brow tines start getting long brows. Watched very symmetrical racks start to get lop sided or funky on one side. The patterns shift naturally. There wasn't much hunting pressure for a long time, not enough to matter anyway. I don't cull either. I just shoot whatever buck makes me happy, or eat tag soup. Point being, I'm not sure that culling bucks actually has an affect on the frequency of any particular genes. Nature seems to be in charge more than most would like to believe.

Baker, I'm always interested in your posts. You have (in my opinion) unique opportunities with deer and habitat management. You seem to make good choices and the results are fantastic. Even your cull bucks are cool!

 

[Turkey Creek]

I wouldnt cull for merely genetic reasons on a free range herd. With that being said I have a deer that is a minimum this year of 3.5 yrs old and he has a pretty poor rack for his age class. If some one wants to fill a tag with him this year I wont have any regrets. Simply because it opens up a slot for a potentially better deer to utilize the resources that deer is currently using.

 

[Baker]

My point with this thread is this:
Would you rather remove a young deer [1-3 yrs old ] believing you might somehow change the incredibly deep and diverse genetic composition of a herd [ free range or not ] .....OR.....let him mature where he may be be plenty big enough to satisfy most hunters? It's that simple.

I am in total support of anyone shooting any deer that rings his bell.

My opinion is this: { again with no interest in changing anyones mind!}
Culling to impact genetics is an impossibility under almost all circumstances...free range, hi fence island, ...
Culling is the most misunderstood abused aspect of deer mgt. Its usually just an excuse to shoot something
Nutrition especially long term nutrition is how you shift antler quality per age group
Age is always your friend

 

[OkieKubota]

So...are you saying that deer farms have no control over what type deer they produce as far as antler genetics no matter who mom or dad is?

Can a deer with the Genetics to be a big main frame 6 or 8 with more food and age can become a mainframe 12? (not talking about added stickers and base junk)

 

[Baker]

So...are you saying that deer farms have no control over what type deer they produce as far as antler genetics no matter who mom or dad is?

Can a deer with the Genetics to be a big main frame 6 or 8 with more food and age can become a mainframe 12? (not talking about added stickers and base junk)

I don't consider deer farms when discussing deer mgt. The deer farms I am familiar with have 100% control over every aspect of the deer including 100% control over breeding. Nor do i consider smaller enclosures { 1-200 acres ish } where bred does are released or pen raised bucks are released.

Your second question is more complex. Can a 1-3 yr old 8 pt become a buck with 10-12 pts. Sure it happens all the time. If a buck has a genetic disposition to be an 8 pt though at maturity then optimum nutrition simply offers him the possibility to be a bigger 8 pt. Annual nutrition does have an impact on annual antler growth and racks respond accordingly up or down. # of points a buck grows can vary materially in mature deer . I contend that most deer herds do not express their full genetic potential because nutrition compromises them.

But here is the more interesting aspect. Deer genetics respond to the environment just as human genetics or any mammal. Asian populations are now physiologically larger than their historical ancestors etc.What that means in the deer world is that a fawn born to a mother on superior nutrition starts having an epigenetic response to the environment. Extrapolated over a generation or two this epigenetic response causes shifts in genetic expression 'allowing' a physiological response in kind. Bodies get bigger. Antlers...an accessory also get bigger. The reciprocal is true as well.

Think of it this way. Why are Fla Key deer so small, and mid west deer much larger. Easy to say different sub species, but in the long run it is natures way of responding to the nutritional profile of the environment.

 

[j-bird]

Free range deer - he lives. we don't control the environment and other aspects enough to even consider otherwise. Just because he isn't what I want, doesn't mean he will get past someone else.

I see deer genetics in a free range population like trying to convert the taste of a pile of salt by trying to replace one grain at a time with sugar - and you have to consider you can only replace 1/2 the pile......so how much true impact can you have?

 

[OkieKubota]

I don't consider deer farms when discussing deer mgt. The deer farms I am familiar with have 100% control over every aspect of the deer including 100% control over breeding. Nor do i consider smaller enclosures { 1-200 acres ish } where bred does are released or pen raised bucks are released.

Your second question is more complex. Can a 1-3 yr old 8 pt become a buck with 10-12 pts. Sure it happens all the time. If a buck has a genetic disposition to be an 8 pt though at maturity then optimum nutrition simply offers him the possibility to be a bigger 8 pt. Annual nutrition does have an impact on annual antler growth and racks respond accordingly up or down. # of points a buck grows can vary materially in mature deer . I contend that most deer herds do not express their full genetic potential because nutrition compromises them.

But here is the more interesting aspect. Deer genetics respond to the environment just as human genetics or any mammal. Asian populations are now physiologically larger than their historical ancestors etc.What that means in the deer world is that a fawn born to a mother on superior nutrition starts having an epigenetic response to the environment. Extrapolated over a generation or two this epigenetic response causes shifts in genetic expression 'allowing' a physiological response in kind. Bodies get bigger. Antlers...an accessory also get bigger. The reciprocal is true as well.

Think of it this way. Why are Fla Key deer so small, and mid west deer much larger. Easy to say different sub species, but in the long run it is natures way of responding to the nutritional profile of the environment.

Didn't say 1-3 yr old deer...said BIG main frame 6 or 8... 1-3 yr old wild free range deer don't meet that requirement with me so the buck is going to be at least 4.5 year old. Genetics to be a mainframe 10-12 are not there...I would use the photo of the deer your hunter killed in this thread as an example. The deer doesn't have the genetics to mainframe 10 or 12 even though he could get all the food and age he could ever hope for in your enclosure and he is even spared the stress of being hunted hard, dogs or coyotes chasing him...etc...

The Florida thing is easy...the further north and colder the climate the deer have evolved to retain weight and bulk to retain heat and fat to make it through winter.

The opposite is true of the Florida keys deer...smaller and lighter frames to help shed heat. Less intake because processing and burning calories in food creates internal heat...

 

[Baker]

OK, I may have misunderstood your question. If a deer is genetically coded to be a 6 or 8 pt...big or not...he will not become a 10 or 12 pt. We can agree on that. I also agree that the deer in the photo does not have the genetics to be a 10 or 12 pt. We have pics of him from the past couple of years and he retained the general look you see there though on a high nutritional plane. He was hunted for the last 2 yrs we just never saw him. He did have to deal with dogs which frequent the farm and lord knows we have abundant coyotes, bobcats, rattlesnakes, water moccasins, not to mention an abundance of other bucks keen to pick a fight . Find them dead from fighting every year.

My only point with this thread is the question: Would you rather shoot this deer as a youngster believing you make any impact in the genetic diversity of a deer herd or let him grow older where he will invariably be a more attractive harvest?

I've struggled with Bergmans law for years. It is not linear geographically and seems to have many holes in it even though there is a loose and general truth to it. Anecdotally we take 250-300 lb deer in La. which are comparable to deer much further north. The average size of the bucks we take in Mexico is 220 with some ranging up as heavy as 265. [ all live weights ] I am not a scientist thus unencumbered from the scientific method. Accept my thinking as such. But I find the nutritional plane theory having as much validity in determining whitetail deer weights as Bergmans Law.

 

[Baker]

Here also is another fascinating ...and yes scientific study ...to consider regarding genetics. Dr. Harry Jacobson had a buck [ named Oscar I think ] that was a very average 140-150" 8 point at his best . That buck thru off more 170" bucks than any other known buck in history during his life at his time. That is no longer true today but calls forth a couple of interesting findings. One, and obviously, the doe plays a significant role. That said though, many of the does were wild caught Mississippi does. Secondly, there may be genetic coding in a buck that is repressed or dormant [ my words ] that simply isn't expressed in that specific deer but shows up in his progeny.

 

[dogghr]

I don't think one knows a bucks true potential until the is a 7 yo. A lot of variables from genetics to habitat to stress as mentioned. Not sure why so many focus on the buck genetics when the doe is half or more the contributing factor. And even that is mute as genetics involve multiple generations each contributing to a bucks or humans makeup. Would I shoot your buck? Yes. But not in any effort to be really able to control those genetics in a free range herd. Those genes are already there and being filtered by natures way already. Cool thread


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[W33kender]

My point with this thread is this:
Would you rather remove a young deer [1-3 yrs old ] believing you might somehow change the incredibly deep and diverse genetic composition of a herd [ free range or not ] .....OR.....let him mature where he may be be plenty big enough to satisfy most hunters? It's that simple.

I am in total support of anyone shooting any deer that rings his bell.

My opinion is this: { again with no interest in changing anyones mind!}
Culling to impact genetics is an impossibility under almost all circumstances...free range, hi fence island, ...
Culling is the most misunderstood abused aspect of deer mgt. Its usually just an excuse to shoot something
Nutrition especially long term nutrition is how you shift antler quality per age group
Age is always your friend

 

[W33kender]

Cull shmull. That is a stud deer. Lol.

 

[Gator]

Our deer lease is a really weird study for me. The area is just rank with Big 6, 7, and 8 point bucks. I have hunted there since 1998 and in the beginning years we killed a few bucks with more points than the 6,7,and 8 rule we have now but over the years the deer are all definitely starting to lean to less than 8 points now with Big, Mature 6 point bucks being the norm rather than the exception. I know some guys really like "Big 6's" but I really am not 1 of them. I have killed my share of these but the next year we have more. I would venture to say that we have at least 15 big mature 6 point bucks on our 1500 acres right now whereas back about 10 years ago we only identified 1 and I killed that one. Have you ever noticed a wild deer area that the bucks had a tendency to all be cut from the same mold like that? We run about 30 trail cameras on the property and it is the same all over it. We did get a picture of 1 10 pointer this year and several of the guys want to get him but I have been trying to tell them he is a 3.5 yr old buck and it might be best to let him walk...not my choice though. If he walks out in front of them he is done...

I believe this happens because all of the bucks with genetics for more than 6-8 points get shot at 2 or 3 years of age whereas nobody is shooting the big 6 so he keeps breeding for several more years. I know the doe carry half the genes, but over time with the big 6s getting so much more breeding opportunities, it starts to add up and make a difference.

 

[OkieKubota]

I believe this happens because all of the bucks with genetics for more than 6-8 points get shot at 2 or 3 years of age whereas nobody is shooting the big 6 so he keeps breeding for several more years. I know the doe carry half the genes, but over time with the big 6s getting so much more breeding opportunities, it starts to add up and make a difference.

I totally agree...

Everytime we get a 9 or a 10 point on camera everyone starts slobbering all over it and I am saying "the buck is only 3...lets let him have a couple more years". I killed a stud 5.5+ 8 point down there last year and we had a 3.5 10 point and a 3.5 9 point killed even though we have much older 6, 7, and 8 points running around...