Recreating a Deer Woods

[Chainsaw]

Thanks for posting that Dave. It answered a lot of my questions. I always wondered why there were so many apples on the side of the road. I have also taken a love to releasing these trees. I have 10-12 in my main food plots and I think you just connected the dots. My FIL saved a few when he cleared the 5 acres(25 years ago) that borders the plot I cleared. Behind what he cleared and on the side of what I cleared are huge rock piles. I also found two horse shoes while clearing my plot. The trees I cleared were also smaller in diameter than the apple trees in most cases. I think that entire area was probably once pasture dotted with apple trees. The trees I released were on there way out and were completely covered up by cherry, elm, and maple. My FIL didn't even know they were there and certainly never saw an apple on them. I walked by them for years without hearing them cry for help. I don't know how long a wild apple lives but these trees were here long before me and now will be here long after me.

You are welcome Jeremy and thanks for the post. The great thing about those apples you released is they give for years and years with minimal maintenance and apples are only a part of what they give. If you can stand a partner in March/April (after snow melt) hunting apple trees give me a call. I really get a kick out of finding them where they seemingly do not exist the rest of the year. And absolutely your area in the day was pasture as well. I'm not sure how long these apple trees live either but I'm not cutting any to find out either! It is almost a guarantee that a day hunting apples will find some that have thus far gone unnoticed.

When snowmobiling the Hill it makes me shudder to see so many apple trees barely hanging on unnoticed and left to quietly disappear as the years go by. I can't help think what great trees they could be with only an hours chainsawing.

 

[Elkaddict]

Dave, thanks for the apple history. It makes a lot of sense. I wish I could find away for our 100+ apple trees better survive late spring freezes. We had almost no production this last year. It's a huge loss of potential food.

 

[dogghr]

Thank you dogghr. You may have some apple trees; seeing them is a funny thing. You may not have any but I can tell you with certainty if you see one, spend a lot of effort around it because there just about never is only one;usually there are six to twelve where there is one. In March here the bark sticks out fifty or seventy-five yards away. Blossoms help also but not all of them in the woods blossom. Anyhow March thru early June here is when we find them easily and mark them.

Annually I mark the ones that need releasing. Then when I do releasing I concentrate on the largest bunches rather than the three or four here and there. Your property may still have some on it but they may be hidden due to advanced succession. It's doubtful that you would miss any you have but it is possible.

I had two oak trees for years;now overnight I have five or six. I never would have believed I didn't see them before now. They were always there for sure.

Give some pointers and maybe some pics on finding apples in the woods please. I really can't believe some don't exist here. Would really appreciate it. Love your and Chummers threads. Very similar to my land minus the 10 feet of snow. Thanks.

 

[Chainsaw]

Tom, good to hear from you. Apples are fairly abundant here every year because of the sheer number of the trees we have. Some years the frost hits when the blossoms are out and it surely puts a hurting on a lot of the trees. Recently while researching causes of apple failures I noticed that cold temps affect pollination. I see that as a daylily hybridizer all the time. Some pollen is more fertile than others during colder temperatures. So what that says and this is new to me apple wise is that frost is not the only thing affecting our pollination. Most apple pollen likes 60 to 70 degrees BUT THERE are apples that have more powerful pollination ability at colder temperatures. So maybe the trick is to plant those types into your mix. Forget about what makes great apples because they really all have their day and concentrate on what apples make the most powerful cold weather pollen. A Google search shows which varieties are cold weather pollinators.Also apparently apple growers mix crab apples into their orchards due to their stronger cold weather pollination characteristics. maybe a shot of better pollen producers could change your apple trees for the better. Remember this stuff is new to me;I'm still learning every day.

I have always thought it was the frost that determined our crop or lack of but apparently there are other factors such as temperature even above frost temperature. I should have known that from my flower hybridizing but just had never put it together. DUH!

 

[Buckly]

The dates you gave and the reasons for the apple orchards make perfect sense to me. I have old maps from my place that date back the late 1860's and there are clearly marked areas that say orchard. I always wondered why they wanted apple orchards back then and now I know. Most of that original orchard is gone now but, not all and I'm sure the 100's of wild apples I have are the descendants. The land was pretty much all cleared pasture back then as I have seen aerial maps from the late 20's that show all open ground. Even 50 years ago when I was a kid there was much open land. That certainly lead to great apple propagation.

 

[Chummer]

You are welcome Jeremy and thanks for the post. The great thing about those apples you released is they give for years and years with minimal maintenance and apples are only a part of what they give. If you can stand a partner in March/April (after snow melt) hunting apple trees give me a call. I really get a kick out of finding them where they seemingly do not exist the rest of the year. And absolutely your area in the day was pasture as well. I'm not sure how long these apple trees live either but I'm not cutting any to find out either! It is almost a guarantee that a day hunting apples will find some that have thus far gone unnoticed.

When snowmobiling the Hill it makes me shudder to see so many apple trees barely hanging on unnoticed and left to quietly disappear as the years go by. I can't help think what great trees they could be with only an hours chainsawing.

I would love to find some more. I have a few more that I have not released because they are on the property line. I think I will release them this winter. I have not done it yet because one guy that lived on that line shoots deer all year. He is gone and a nice elderly couple bought his place for a summer retreat. PERFECT new neighbor! I am going to try and go up for some snow showing this weekend if you are looking for something to do. With all the rain tomorrow followed by cold it should be easy walking. Probably won't even need snow shoes. On the seedlings, now that I know what I am looking at I have found a few trees from 3' to 10' around the edges. I have staked and tubed them. They are slow growers for sure. I even have one growing the field that looks like it has been brushed hogged for years and keeps sending up new growth. It has some will to survive, I tubed it this year and it put out 3' of growth in a drought, can't wait to see what it does next year. My guess is it has a large root system and will take off.

 

[Chainsaw]

I would love to find some more. I have a few more that I have not released because they are on the property line. I think I will release them this winter. I have not done it yet because one guy that lived on that line shoots deer all year. He is gone and a nice elderly couple bought his place for a summer retreat. PERFECT new neighbor! I am going to try and go up for some snow showing this weekend if you are looking for something to do. With all the rain tomorrow followed by cold it should be easy walking. Probably won't even need snow shoes. On the seedlings, now that I know what I am looking at I have found a few trees from 3' to 10' around the edges. I have staked and tubed them. They are slow growers for sure. I even have one growing the field that looks like it has been brushed hogged for years and keeps sending up new growth. It has some will to survive, I tubed it this year and it put out 3' of growth in a drought, can't wait to see what it does next year. My guess is it has a large root system and will take off.

This weekend sounds like a possibility depending on the depth and condition of the snow. We'll see what the weather brings us. Went out without snowshoes today, it was a bit slow going. There's nothing like spring when the snow has just left;of course it is walking now that keeps one in shape to really enjoy the open ground when it comes.

 

[Elkaddict]

Tom, good to hear from you. Apples are fairly abundant here every year because of the sheer number of the trees we have. Some years the frost hits when the blossoms are out and it surely puts a hurting on a lot of the trees. Recently while researching causes of apple failures I noticed that cold temps affect pollination. I see that as a daylily hybridizer all the time. Some pollen is more fertile than others during colder temperatures. So what that says and this is new to me apple wise is that frost is not the only thing affecting our pollination. Most apple pollen likes 60 to 70 degrees BUT THERE are apples that have more powerful pollination ability at colder temperatures. So maybe the trick is to plant those types into your mix. Forget about what makes great apples because they really all have their day and concentrate on what apples make the most powerful cold weather pollen. A Google search shows which varieties are cold weather pollinators.Also apparently apple growers mix crab apples into their orchards due to their stronger cold weather pollination characteristics. maybe a shot of better pollen producers could change your apple trees for the better. Remember this stuff is new to me;I'm still learning every day.

I have always thought it was the frost that determined our crop or lack of but apparently there are other factors such as temperature even above frost temperature. I should have known that from my flower hybridizing but just had never put it together. DUH!

Thanks for the additional info. I'm anxious to get your keen eye on our apples trees. We've seen 4 falls now and we've gone from extremes of no aplles to loosing sificant branches because there were so many. Also, we have some I've never seen apples on. I'd love to find away to increase production. On good years, the trails around apple trees are silly.

 

[Chummer]

Thanks for the additional info. I'm anxious to get your keen eye on our apples trees. We've seen 4 falls now and we've gone from extremes of no aplles to loosing sificant branches because there were so many. Also, we have some I've never seen apples on. I'd love to find away to increase production. On good years, the trails around apple trees are silly.

I have one of those trees. It is in a perfect spot, is the best looking of all the trees I have, and has had one or two apples a year on it. No explanation. Last year all the trees were loaded and that one still had two apples. It even blooms the same time as the tree right next to it that has lots of apples. I would love an apple doctor to explain that tree.

 

[Chainsaw]

Give some pointers and maybe some pics on finding apples in the woods please. I really can't believe some don't exist here. Would really appreciate it. Love your and Chummers threads. Very similar to my land minus the 10 feet of snow. Thanks.

Dogghr, I wish there were concrete pointers to locating apple trees. It's like hunting sheds;one must know what they look like and dedicate their time to searching that and that alone. Once ones eyes are trained for apple trees they can be seen at fifty miles an hour driving down the road even if they are mixed with a hundred other trees and are fifty yards or even more from the road.

As to tips I have only two and they aren't rocket science. Bring pink or orange tapes with you to mark them when found and of course search for apple trees when they are in bloom. They are easiest to find in late March and April as well as bloom time.

The other tip (observation) I have is that where there is one apple tree there is often more and sometimes many more. Spend lots of time in different times of day where one was found to find others. Mornings and afternoons are the best light to find them. They blend in more at noon type light.

Apple trees grow throughout a property but are easiest to find around openings and are often close to the old rock walls and fields. The apple trees in big timber may be shaded out and small or even have died off and fallen already. Often I find them on slopes--south slopes as expected but also on north slopes! The most important tip as alluded to is that they seem to grow in bunches; find one and hang to that area fully believing there are more.

 

[George]

It is a special thing, your stash of ancient apple trees. My first property bought in Michigan 1989 had an overgrown interior fence row separating marsh from tillable. Amongst and under the crumbling ancient willows, ash and box elder were a row along the fence of unspectacular under story trees with some leaves where ever the sun came through. I figured that they must be apples, down came the acer negundo and out popped the fruits in subsequent years.

My shoes are MSR EVO Ascents 22" with the tail wing extensions for 30". I was calling them wings but they are tails. These things have been making the morning lap through the forest with me and I really like them. The first day out I was sinking a bit but now I have a worked trail. Snow conditions have changed and I can now float over unbroken ground. These are my running shoes and I can sprint in them rather well. The foot bed swivels with the toe cleats.





G

 

[Chainsaw]

Great find on the apples and the shoes Geo. I'll bet you were one happy camper when those apples on your Michigan property started producing.

Thanks for the details on your snowshoes;they look to be a top notch shoe for very serious snow trekking. The removable/addable tail feature is awesome for new snows and those side rails must add extra stability as well. One of the on-line reviewers told how they hiked up MT. Marcy in the winter and had eighty mile an hour winds on the peak; he really liked the stability the side rails gave him. That says a lot about the shoes.

Now running in snowshoes is a bit beyond what I could handle at this time and so is a winter "stroll" up MT. Marcy. Still though, when it is time to update my starter shoes I'll shall seriously consider the upgrade to the MSR EVO Ascents with tails.

 

[Chainsaw]

Getting back to the theme and introduction into this thread RECREATING A DEER WOODS. In attempting to specifically define the goals I am wrestling with the term quality deer management because quality land management really precedes quality deer management or at least quality land management for deer sets the stage for quality deer management. Further can we have quality deer management or quality land management without first managing people, with people being us the hunters on this property and our neighbors and really the whole town? So for now I am not going to confuse myself any further by attempting to categorize my efforts as quality deer management, quality land management or people management. To recreate the deer property aimed at here we will just move on with recreating this deer property using tasks aimed at improving the property from the deer’s perspective. So no goals JUST A MISSION which is simplistic yet more than a pie in the sky kind of thing; the mission is;-

-CREATE AN ENVIRONMENT THAT ENABLES MORE DEER TO BE BORN HERE AND HAVE A CHANCE AT LIVING THROUGH TO MATURITY.

-SHAPE THE PROPERTY SO IT ENCOURAGES MORE DEER TO CHOOSE TO LIVE HERE OR AT LEAST TO SPEND AN INORDINATE AMOUNT OF THEIR DAYLIGHT TIME HERE.

-ACHIEVE A SAFE LANDSCAPE/ ENVIRONMENT TO ENCOURAGE THE YOUNG AND MATURE ADULT DEER THAT LIVE OFF THIS PROPERTY BUT IN THE GENERAL NEIGHBORHOOD TO CHOOSE THIS PROPERTY AS A PERCIEVED SANCTUARY TO SPEND THEIR DAYS DURING THE FALL MONTHS.

Further it is almost pointless to think that this project will ever actually be finished; new ideas, learning’s and insights with an ever naturally changing property habitat of this property and the surrounding properties call for constant tweaking. Our mission for this property though lofty is not revolutionary but is one that has already been reached by some from the QDMA forum as well as this forum. Still I welcome it as a large and challenging step to recreate a woods deer like to live in more than any other place in the neighborhood.

For some this might not be realistic but as a semi-retired person in reasonable good health at the moment our mission is fully achievable.

 

[Native Hunter]

Those are well thought out mission statements Dave.

 

[Elkaddict]

Dave, as I've thought about your mission statement, I'd add 2 things I know you're already doing: keep it fun, and share your passion with all who'll listen.

 

[Chainsaw]

Those are well thought out mission statements Dave.

Thank you Steve. I appreciate your kind words and it is completely OK if you want to try to sway me in any of my thinking.

Dave, as I've thought about your mission statement, I'd add 2 things I know you're already doing: keep it fun, and share your passion with all who'll listen.

Thanks Tom, I like your added things to the mission statement and lets further the 2nd one to Share this passion with all who'll listen and ENCOURAGE THEIR IDEAS to help recreate this deer woods.

Tomorrow we'll describe the property and it's strong and weaker points.

 

[Chainsaw]

A week has gone by since my “will describe the property tomorrow”—got side tracked by good weather. Rain and warm temperatures quickly melted away the huge amount of snow that had fallen the week before. So driven by do whatever the weather permits I went to all out cutting up and splitting firewood this week Anne and I heat with wood as one of the ways we reduce our living expenses and lose a few pounds doing it as well.

This post shows some of the firewood project and also pays tribute to the greatest of firewood trees the Ash tree. The Ash trees are dying off here as well as throughout the country. For those of you who have never worked with ash what makes it so great is that in the right amount of sun and shade it grows quickly and tall with few branches for its first couple of logs. It has the straightest of grains and splits ever so perfectly.



Here is a large piece is split in half. Notice how straight it splits. The splitter goes thru it seemingly effortless as compared to all of our other woods.



Each half weighs 75 lbs or more and will be run thru the splitter a few times to create pieces I can pick up when cold.



Two like size ash pieces split up almost fills the tractor bucket. Notice how small the center heartwood is and how it stays straight thru the log. Other wood is so difficult to work with compared to ash. Once all of the ash have died off I may switch to heating by propane if the price stays low as it is now. Handling firewood is taking more and more hours each year.



And finally we have enough wood to make the winter no matter what she throws at us.



Each of the five rows are 16 ft. by 5 ft. by 32 inches (about 8.3 full cord-the most we have ever had for this late date). It heats our now 3800 sq. ft. barn(our home) including the sun room with very little wood with temps of twenty and above; When it gets cold out though like minus twenty or twenty-five it really eats the wood up. As time and weather permits more will be cut here and there in hopes of having some left as a start for next winter. Mostly though from here on any good weather and good ground conditions will be used for habitat work. I can’t wait to get started.

 

[Elkaddict]

Dave, how long and hot does ash burn compared to oak or hard maple? How easy is it to start compared to these hardwoods.

 

[Chainsaw]

Dave, how long and hot does ash burn compared to oak or hard maple? How easy is it to start compared to these hardwoods.

Tom, according to documented papers ash is behind maple and oak but the ash, cherry, elm, and hard/soft maple gets thrown into the furnace together and the next day there is some of each still left. Because of the near perfect grain and ease of cutting and splitting the ash more than makes up for any difference in BTU's. The difference in BTU's is imperceptible to me but I'm sure it is there.

In Nov. and Dec, we often burn poplar and that burns thru quickly in comparison and leaves very little ash and no coals. A friend of mine in Connecticut burns a lot of white pine and poplar throughout the winter because some years it is what he has and that heats his house easily.

During the splitting process paper thin slices fall off of ash and maple and strings fall off elm and I put them in a five gallon pail and bring them in the barn. Within a few days each is so dry they burn like birch bark. Those slices over paper covered with full size wood from the pile and usually start the fire with one match. Outside would be different but within the protection of the furnace interior it gets just the right amount of air and up she goes.

However except for when emptying the ashes out of the furnace or a 40 or 50 mile an hour blow the fire is not restarted.It just keeps going. Huge blows will cause the wood to burn up even though the damper is automatically fully closed. When a huge blow is coming it is best to only put in a half of a day worth of wood.

 

[buckdeer1]

So different across different parts of country.Here in Kansas I have never heard of anyone finding a wild apple tree,wish we did though.Kind of glad I don't have to own that much fire wood or snowshoes either.