It's time for sex checking

[Native Hunter]

Right now in my area is a good time to check your persimmon seedlings to determine their gender. It's really easy to tell the difference by the flowers, and this thread will have some pictures.

My thoughts are summed up below:

• It can take about 10 years or more before a persimmon starts producing flowers. It does seem to me that males show their sex a few years before females. So far, all of the ones that have been slow to flower have eventually shown themselves to be females for me. That may not hold true everywhere, but I'm starting to suspect that it might.
• I have both native seedlings and some seedlings I set a few years ago that I got from the NWTF. So far I have had an unusually high number of females from the seedlings I set. From what I am told, this is unusual.
• I've also noticed that when a female starts bearing persimmons it will be slow at first. After a couple years of bearing, the crop starts increasing significantly. Of course, with seedling trees there is a lot of variation from tree to tree in characteristics - just like if you plant apple seeds. Today I noticed that a tree that started bearing sparingly two years ago was simply loaded with flowers. This tree will likely have a bumper crop this year.
• You can topwork a persimmon even before you determine the sex. One advantage of doing this is getting a tree with the characteristics that you want. I have done this myself, but I also enjoy waiting for the tree to reveal its gender. I like a few trees around that are not topworked, and I like the variety that adds. Unless I want a specific variety at a specific place, I generally just wait and leave the females alone and topwork the males I want changed.
• Keep in mind that my pictures below are of flowers that have just emerged, and they will get much bigger as they develop. However, you can already tell the sex at this early stage.

This is the female flower. Female flowers occur individually on very short stalks. Individual female flowers are just a little bigger than 1/2 inch when fully developed. The flower has an oval shaped corolla with 4 lobes, a pistil with 4 inserted styles, a calyx with 4 large teeth. The flowers in my picture as very small right now, but you can still easily tell they are female.

These are the male flowers. Male flowers are arranged in small clusters of 2-3 on short branching stalks. Keep in mind that if you see more than one flower side by side, it is definitely a male. Individual male flowers are about 1/3" long, and have a corolla with 4 lobes, a calyx with 4 teeth, and several stamens.

This is a tree that just revealed this year that it is a female. I was very happy, because it is such a nice, big tree I didn't want to cut the top out of it. I think this is one of the NWTF seedlings I got a few years ago.

This is an example of a nice sized female that has been bearing for three or four years now. This one is loaded with flower this year.



This is a tree I topworked last year. I was a male at the edge of one of my plots. I changed it over to a Dogdoc female, and it is growing great. The graft is at the ribbon. All that growth in one year.

This is a smaller tree that revealed it's a female this spring. That's a wild cherry standing by it to the right. I have gobs of wild cherry, so will probably cut it and open the space up for the persimmon.

You think you have found everything, and then you find another persimmon. This is a native seedling that I found today at the edge of a plot where I cleared some brush. I marked it with ribbon and will clean out around it now. I think there is a good chance this is a female. It is about 40 feet from a big native female, so I suspect it is coming off the same roots. However, we will watch it and go from there.

That's it guys. Hope you enjoyed. Get out there and get to checking.

 

[Mitch123]

Awesome information Native. Don’t have any persimmons now, but in the process of growing some. Will be very helpful information down the road.

 

[weekender21]

Great information, thanks!

I planted quite a few last October and they took a big hit this winter. I'm in 6b as well but the elevation and snow doesn't seem to help. I'm probably right on the border of where I could expect them to survive. I'm looking forward to see how the surviving trees do over the next few years.

 

[TreeDaddy]

Thank you for posting, Steve
great info

bill

 

[lakngolf]

Great as always Native.

 

[dogghr]

Thanks Native good info. I thot you just bent them over to ck. Seriously I assume my one female persimmon planted last year has done anything but it is leafed out. I'll ck this weekend.
I was mad last year as I was explaining to a guy at walmart that asked me, that they were good for deer and you had to have male and female to produce. While I was walking up to do a deal on some trees, he grabbed the only male I had sat out and stuck it in his truck! At any rate I got the remaining female and some apples and chestnuts for nearly nothing, but I secretly hope both of his die. LOL. I think he had KY plates. Thanks again.

 

[Native Hunter]

Thanks Native good info. I thot you just bent them over to ck. Seriously I assume my one female persimmon planted last year has done anything but it is leafed out. I'll ck this weekend.
I was mad last year as I was explaining to a guy at walmart that asked me, that they were good for deer and you had to have male and female to produce. While I was walking up to do a deal on some trees, he grabbed the only male I had sat out and stuck it in his truck! At any rate I got the remaining female and some apples and chestnuts for nearly nothing, but I secretly hope both of his die. LOL. I think he had KY plates. Thanks again.

Yep, that guy was my moonshine runner. I asked him to clean out all the persimmons in West VA while he was there.

Good luck buddy and show us some persimmon ovaries soon.

 

[ng270]

Great info! Thank you. How long do the flowers usually last? I won't get to my place until the first weekend of June, so I'm guessing I'll be a little late?

 

[Native Hunter]

Great info! Thank you. How long do the flowers usually last? I won't get to my place until the first weekend of June, so I'm guessing I'll be a little late?

No, it won’t be too late then. Also, in the center of the female flower is where the persimmon forms. So where a flower gets pollinated there will be fruit developing. Best wishes.

 

[Native Hunter]

Here you can see how the flowers change over time. I took these today. Top pic is the male flowers. They are opening up. They look like little urns. The next pic is the female. You can see that it is enlarging.

 

[ng270]

Glad to hear it. I have one persimmon that fruits every year, but all of the branches are too high for me to see the flowers. So those pics help a lot. I suspect most of the young trees I want to check are too young to flower yet, but I want to keep tabs on them. Thanks again.

 

[Native Hunter]

One more thing I want to mention. When you topwork a persimmon, it can take a really long time for the grafts to take and to see green tips. It is much slower than topworking apples. I have seen apple leaves in less than a week. None of my persimmon grafts this year showed green tips before 15 days. Some were 28 days, and I even noticed two today (at 29 days) that were not showing any green the day before. So, don't give up too soon on persimmons.

This was one of the early ones that showed green at 15 days. You can see that the leaves are coming on out really well now. These could grow 4 to 5 feet this year.

This is one of the slow ones. At 15 days it was showing nothing, but you can see that it now has green tips. I've never seen one die once they start greening up.

The next thing will be for me to add cane poles for bracing the first year. A hard wind storm can break off new grafts before they have a time to heal and harden. That job will come in a few weeks from now. Best wishes with your persimmons.

 

[ng270]

So I am thinking that these are male flowers, correct? That was my initial thought, but when I looked at the mature tree that I know bears fruit, the flowers looked very similar, from ground level. But as I said before, none of those are down where I can reach them or see them really clearly.


I did find one flower that I am sure is female; of course that tree is growing out the side of a cedar on my boundary and has very poor structure. And the pictures I took of it are extremely blurry, but didn't notice until too late to go back and retake.

 

[Native Hunter]

So I am thinking that these are male flowers, correct? That was my initial thought, but when I looked at the mature tree that I know bears fruit, the flowers looked very similar, from ground level. But as I said before, none of those are down where I can reach them or see them really clearly.
View attachment 12260

I did find one flower that I am sure is female; of course that tree is growing out the side of a cedar on my boundary and has very poor structure. And the pictures I took of it are extremely blurry, but didn't notice until too late to go back and retake.

Yes, those are male.

Also, keep in mind that occasionally, although not often a tree can have both male and female flowers. I have personally never seen one but know they exist. They call those a "Perfect" tree.

 

[Native Hunter]

Update:

First Pic shows persimmons forming.

Second Pic shows new grafts taking off great.