Doe harvest/ ratio question

[Kwood]

I own 135 acres in an extremely high deer density, but also extremely high hunting pressure area in West Central, IL.

On average we harvest 2 bucks (goal is 4+) and one doe per year. I don’t know our exact deer density but I can tell you I saw 25+ antlerless deer and 4 bucks yesterday while hunting.

While we have lots of bucks around, we are not 1:1, or even 1:2. I’d guess more like 1:4.

With all the pressure around us I’ve always resisted shooting does. This year it seemed we have more than ever. Most hints this year I’d see 10+ in a 3-4 hour sit.

Should we be taking more? Does it make a difference on a smaller property?

Curious your thoughts?


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[Chainsaw]

I don't know it if it makes any difference on a small property versus a larger one. If one is sitting in fields ten deer sightings is not an excessive amount; in the woods it is a lot but not necessarily a problem. What is too many really boils down to do you have enough food on the property to support whatever is there. The spring browse survey tells you that. And of course if you have a recurring browse line on the edge of every field and throughout your woods there is too many deer for the property. It is really impractical for one landowner with a small property to correct the situation once it gets too far to one side.

If the woods is full of invasive plants mostly that is yet another sign of too many deer. If you are in doubt, take a dozen random pictures of in the woods places and post them and ask for comments. From a dozen close up in the woods pictures it would be obvious if the population is out of sync with the property. A true four to one ratio is of course out of sync but again deceiving; seeing four does to one buck is pretty normal except in the rut peak and not necessarily indicative of the actual population.

Seeing 29 deer in a days hunt is definitely not an indicator of a low population (very obviously) and a close look at your browse available and plant makeup in your woods is very important.

 

[Kwood]

I can say this, there is food for days. Prime example is our 3 acre soybean plot in our bottom. It still has plenty of beans to last the winter.

We also have 2500+ oak trees planted in 2000 as a conservation program and majority are dropping acorns.

Farmers north and south still have 40 acres of beans un cut.

Food isn’t an issue.


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[Kwood]

Moreso wondering if does could be pushing bucks out.


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[g squared 23]

Deer can't just eat beans. They need native browse to be about half or more of their diet. They could be crushing the surrounding cover and leaving a barren wasteland of japanese bush honeysuckle and autumn olive, which is common across central Illinois. Check the browse line.


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[Kwood]

Understand, g. I guess I’m more just saying I don’t believe they are hurting for food. I could be wrong.

I am more curious if a large percentage of does will push out bucks for good bedding area?


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[X-farmerdan]

Just a couple questions out of curiosity. Understanding your small acreage isn't a good indicator, I'll ask anyhow. Over the last five years have you or could you have killed more bucks? Do you think the buck population increasing or decreasing? Can you take the question to a bigger area? Around you, do you have a sense of the answers for say a mile radius? And as a final look, how about in the county where you hunt? Can you find the number of bucks reported killed and the number of antler-less? If the management unit is different than the county, the same questions. One more - what's the opportunity to kill does? How many days and does it vary with year? If so, how has it varied over the last five years?

 

[Elkaddict]

I too am interested in this topic. I think we need to follow our instincts from year to year. Our cameras surveys suggested a 2:1 ratio. Since snow started piling up, we’ve seen 30+ deer at a time in one of our plot complexes. Counting 50% of fawns and the young bucks that virtually live in the plots suggests a 3:1+ ratio (but doesn’t take into consideration mature bucks in lockdown or which are largely nocturnal). We have almost no acorns this year which also makes guessimating actual numbers more difficult because we are feeding far more than the usual resident deer. Our challenge is the larger numbers will strip the plots bare in the next 5 or 6 weeks. Fortunately, our browse is in excellent shape. My instinct is we need to kill 6-8 does but will need outside help to kill more than a couple (I won’t let anyone hunt when I’m not there). Shortly after acquiring the property, we hired a consultant who expressed the view that shooting too few bucks was not consistent with getting bucks to to reach their highest potential. Over the hundreds of properties he’s consulted on, he felt turn over ultimately benefitted long term goal of improving buck size (assuming they’re reaching maturity). I won’t knowingly shoot deer less than 41/2 and hope to establish that as a rule. Bottom line is keep records, monitor all available food sources and follow your instincts.

 

[Kwood]

X, I have never to my knowledge passed a 4+ year old while bowhuntjng. Neither has my dad. I will pass anything I believe to be 3 and under.

I routinely pass multiple does per sit. Sometimes 10+.

Friday I saw 30+ deer on my property in 3 hours of walking and sitting. Zero had antlers.

I saw 4 bucks later that evening just off our property. One of my target bucks.

Trail camera surveys would show in the course of a year I can typically identify 15-20 unique bucks. A lot are just passing through. We aren’t hurting for deer and there are lots of bucks around. I just wonder if the masses of does are pushing some bucks out for good cover.


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[Chainsaw]

Very, very few mature bucks are shot outside of some form of the rut phase here; during the rut phase bucks go where the does are here. The only thing "wrong" about too many does is if there is no food to feed them or there are too many does compared to bucks because the bucks have mostly been shot off. Other than that lots of does draws lots of bucks here and I like it. Send the masses my way.

If only mature bucks are shot in an area, the buck to doe ratio shouldn't get too out of hand. Still though we shoot at least as many does as bucks and often twice as many does to make up for others that don't. EDIT- does shot most years but not the year or years after a major winter kill of course.

 

[Kwood]

That may be what we need to do. At least take a doe for every buck. Problem is most neighbors would should a 1 or 2 year old buck without thinking twice.


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[X-farmerdan]

X, I have never to my knowledge passed a 4+ year old while bowhuntjng. Neither has my dad. I will pass anything I believe to be 3 and under.

I routinely pass multiple does per sit. Sometimes 10+.

Friday I saw 30+ deer on my property in 3 hours of walking and sitting. Zero had antlers.

I saw 4 bucks later that evening just off our property. One of my target bucks.

Trail camera surveys would show in the course of a year I can typically identify 15-20 unique bucks. A lot are just passing through. We aren’t hurting for deer and there are lots of bucks around. I just wonder if the masses of does are pushing some bucks out for good cover.


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I guess i was trying to understand the dynamics of the population. It's bigger than just what happens on your 135. I would assume (and you know what they say about that), the situation is similar on the surrounding habitat. So, if does are pushing bucks off your property what's to stop the does on adjacent property from pushing right back? It's complex. It just sounds to me like nobody is shooting enough does for a healthy and stable population - if that means anything or for whatever it means. It seems to me your strategy is backwards. Based on your observations and beliefs, you should be killing twice as many does as bucks.

And, if everybody around you is shooting any buck they see, but you are seeing the same number of bucks year after year, what does that mean? Then, too, a large doe population relative to the number of bucks of any age certainly changes the necessary buck movement patterns, doesn't it?

You asked for thoughts. That's all I have. And no answers....

 

[SwampCat]

If your early camera surveys show anything close to a 1:2 buck:doe rario - you should be fine. This time of year, bucks have been killed, and they are more pressure sensitive - making them less visible. Also, this years fawns should not be considered when calculating buck:doe ratios. I would not be too concerned that the does are running the bucks out of the prime bedding ground.

 

[Chipdasqrrl]

Where I hunt, I can go days at a time without seeing deer so I am no expert here. However, it is my understanding that for every deer that is eliminated from the herd in a given area, another will generally take its place. It wouldn’t be as significant with deer as it would be for other animals like coyotes, but I think removing some of the does could result in more bucks moving in.


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[Bigeight]

My thoughts are to keep doing what you are doing. There is always a balance of killing deer and keeping pressure low. I think on 135 acres you have been doing a nice balance for how your property fits into the neighborhood. That amount of acres you aren't going to do that much to "manage" the herd. So, just do what you think helps you with your personal goals with the property.
You killed a huge buck already, are chasing a 6 yr old buck still , and one that probably +/- 200" that you managed to hold on your property 2 consecutive years.
I wouldn't change a thing.

 

[Kwood]

BigEight. I like your perspective. Plus, “keep doing what you are doing” is a lot easier!


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[Chainsaw]

That may be what we need to do. At least take a doe for every buck. Problem is most neighbors would should a 1 or 2 year old buck without thinking twice.


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If your neighbors aren't carrying shooting the doe load then the coming years are fairly predictable. We have seen the results of that here and as they say "it wasn't pretty". The impact to the natural woods in this area is severe and the woods likely will never be the same again. As we kept enough pressure on the does and cut a lot raising our browse levels,our property was affected the least amount but it definitely was negatively affected. The population advance was not so bad when there was say up to fifty deer per square mile but after that it grew to stupid highs very quickly; We were shooting 25 to thirty does a year for a while and there was no end in sight. Finally seemingly overnight most other people starting shooting does and then on most properties the population became very low and non-managed properties were barren of browse and full of invasives.

If each property owner does his share every year then it doesn't take so much pressure to keep things under control. It is so important that us on the forum that are aware of what is to come help our neighbors learn the basics of population control because there is no legal way we can do it alone for an entire area. Converting their thinking to shooting a doe is better for them than shooting 1 or 2 year old bucks is the only way I see to keep what happened here from happening in your area.

 

[Mennoniteman]

Would you agree that it's a fact that you have more does than you need to replenish the buck population for those killed every year? If so, you probably should be removing some, because excessive doe numbers will push out your bucks. The bottom line is that you really don't need all of those does on 135 acres, even if food isn't an issue, having way more does than you need to replenish your herd is counterproductive to putting large antlers on your cabin wall.

 

[Kwood]

I would say we have 20+ does at least 1.5 or older that use our deer as a major part of their home range.

I don’t know how many bucks are killed around us each year. Tons of pressure. That said, I’d guess more does than what I takes.


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[Chainsaw]

Would you agree that it's a fact that you have more does than you need to replenish the buck population for those killed every year? If so, you probably should be removing some, because excessive doe numbers will push out your bucks. The bottom line is that you really don't need all of those does on 135 acres, even if food isn't an issue, having way more does than you need to replenish your herd is counterproductive to putting large antlers on your cabin wall.

I agree that too many does or too many deer ruin a habitat and twenty does is way more than is needed on 135 acres. However too many does pushing out the bucks during the rut; I'm not on board with that. Are there any scientific studies that substantiate such?

As an aside I can remember when a local bar had free drinks for women on a Wednesday night; there were more guys there on Wednesday night than the whole rest of the week combined.