butyrac in clover question

Discussion in 'Food Plots for Wildlife' started by Petreaux1, Aug 27, 2019.

  1. Petreaux1

    Petreaux1 New Member

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    Location:
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    Hardiness Zone:
    9a
    New to deer hunting / farming/ food plots so this may be a very basic question but I can't seem to find it on Butyrac label. Area 9a, South Mississippi, planted 1 acre Durana in April in effort to do perennial clover plot. Clover came up nice but so did weeds. Got behind on weeds by June(like 2 feet tall weeds, now I know how fast weeds grow) but have since mowed 3 times this summer to approximately 6 inches. At 6 inches I was just nipping the tops off a little of the clover but passing over most of it. Sprayed clethodim for grasses Aug 3 and that seems to have worked now I want to hit broadleafs but Butyrac 200 label says do not spray when above 90 degrees. Clover is now covering approx. %70 of field, but buried by (if my rookie weed identification is correct) smartweed, puncturetine/sandspur, broom sage, and miscellaneous weeds. Normal planting dates here are Sep 1st to 20th but the temps wont go consistently below 90 till mid/late September. I have extra Durana seed and want to overseed the bare areas . Question 1: How long after spraying Butyrac do I need to wait before overseeding with more clover?? It seems that next year I would spray for weeds in Spring so not have to worry about high temperatures and get ahead of weeds but this year I am a little stuck: I have a nice clover patch but it is buried by weeds. Question 2: Since clover seems to be looking good even though it is late August, can I spray this weekend even though temps will be near 90? Or should I just mow now and spray Oct. 1? Pictures are from before first mowing, june 23, tall weeds are much shorter now but the low growing ones seem to be thicker and choking out the clover. My mowing is not affecting low growing weeds . Thanks in advance for any and all advice!
     

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  2. X-farmerdan

    X-farmerdan Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    South Mississippi? Do you ever get a frost?
     
  3. Petreaux1

    Petreaux1 New Member

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    Yes, most years will get frost.
     
  4. DrDirtNap

    DrDirtNap Active Member

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    Location:
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    I’m in North MS and I fight the same type of weeds. Butyrac is only partially effective especially on those larger broadleaf weeds. In your situation mowing is still probably your best option. Not sure how long you’ve had clover in that field but it might be time for for some crop rotation to clean up some of those weeds with other herbicide options. That’s been my experience anyway.


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  5. X-farmerdan

    X-farmerdan Well-Known Member

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    I struggle recommending application of herbicides to annual broadleaf weeds at the end of their lifecycle. Still, here in Virginia, we probably have at least 60 frost-free days left. Even so, assuming a herbicide is in order, you are facing what I think of as insurmountable odds. Just because you have a weed, and a herbicide that might be effective, doesn't mean that it will be!

    The 90-degree rule is there because at that temperature and above, you can spray the herbicide, but it's unlikely to be able to get into the weed in sufficient quantities that would cause its demise. That's because, not just the target plants, but most other plants shut-down in order to preserve moisture. The critical cells close and circulation of water comes to a near standstill.

    The other problem is the size of the weed, and not just the size of the weed above ground, but below ground as well. I think if you read the butyrac label, somewhere it will say it's most effective on weeds 3 to 4 inches tall. At this stage, the root system and the vegetative size of the plant are in balance. So, a dose on the leaves gets into all the root system, a necessary requirement for your objective. Today, at this stage of the game most weeds have huge root systems that probably dwarf the topside of the plant.

    The odds of success aren't good.

    There's always an exception and, surely, someone will come along and tell their great success story doing what I just said probably couldn't be done! But, everyday somebody wins the lottery!

    Mowing is a good option. Mowing helps sunlight reach the clover and keeps the weeds from going to seed. Evaluate the situation in the spring, and, if a herbicide is warranted apply is then. Hopefully, if your soils are fertile and productive, you spring clovere will be thick and lush enough to crowd out weeds that have any idea of invading the patch.
     
  6. X-farmerdan

    X-farmerdan Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
  7. Petreaux1

    Petreaux1 New Member

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    Thanks very much for the replies. Plot history is last summer was 8 foot tall weeds/brush, abandoned food plot , not sure how many years abandoned. Did the bushhog, soil tested, limed, disced , smoothed, fertilized, and planted Biologic oat/clover/brassica fall plot mix. Was my first time ever on tractor or planting . Brassica crowded out everything else and took off. Monster success, near 2 foot tall, %90 coverage, almost no weeds. Deer wouldn't touch it. They walked through searching to nibble on tiny little who knows what in bare spots between Brassica. Disced Brassica under in February and again in March, fertilized and planted clover April 1. Clover was coming up well, got busy at work , couldn't go see for 7 weeks and by June 20 weeds had taken over , 2 feet tall.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2019
  8. SwampCat

    SwampCat Well-Known Member

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    You might try overseeding the areas you want end of Sep and then bush hogging one more time. The cut weeds would act as a throw n mow plot, then - and most weeds should be at the end of their life cycle and the clover will be on the verge of coming on with cooler temps on the horizon
     
  9. Petreaux1

    Petreaux1 New Member

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    Clover plot with broadleaf weeds problem. On half of plot I want to test try Butyrac (since I already bought it), but cant seem to find this answer : How long after I spray Butyrac is waiting period to overseed with more clover seeds? Thanks in advance.
     
  10. X-farmerdan

    X-farmerdan Well-Known Member

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    Butyrac - 2,4db has a half-life of seven to 10 days. The problem is, the chemical structure after the breakdown. It is, 2,4d. It will persist in the soil at active herbicide levels for another 7 to 10 days. Armed with that information I think 10 days is a minimum and 30 days if you truly want to be safe.

    I didn't find a label for verification of my thought.


    An excerpt from a material safety data sheet is below.

    ENVIRONMENTAL FATE

    In soil, the compound is broken down by the action of soil microbes to the product 2,4-D. The half-life for the parent compound (2,4-DB) is seven days. 2,4-D is also a powerful herbicide though it too has a relatively short persistence in soil (up to 50 days depending on soil type, microbial activity, temperature and other factors) (4). 2,4-D has been detected in groundwater in at least five states and in Canada (5). Because of the risk of groundwater contamination from the whole family of 2,4-D related compounds, special advisories are required on the labels of end-use products containing 2,4-D and related products (including 2,4-DB).
    There is no specific information available about the parent compound 2,4- DB in surface water or in groundwater.

    In plants, the compound 2,4-DB is degraded to 2,4-D which is then broken down further to less toxic materials. In plants tolerant to the herbicide, the breakdown from 2,4-DB to 2,4-D is very slow (1).
     
  11. Petreaux1

    Petreaux1 New Member

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    Thank you for the reply. I will spray as soon as temps go below 90 which is looking like late September. Thanks again farmerdan
     
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  12. MarkDarvin

    MarkDarvin Well-Known Member

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    If you’re not beach dry, I might try throwing forage barley, forage oats, and sunflower into it and then scalp it with your mower as short as u can.


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  13. Mennoniteman

    Mennoniteman Well-Known Member

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    That spraying below 90 degrees doesn't mean the time of year, it means the time of day. Just spray in the morning when the dew is wet before the sun gets hot.
     
  14. Petreaux1

    Petreaux1 New Member

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    Update to post, 30 days later , no rain, hottest and driest September since 1953. On Sep. 21st I went up and half the plot was mostly weeds so I disced it under and seeded Durana clover into dry dusty dirt. The ground was hard as a rock and bone dry. I disced it 4 passes and then 3 passes with homemade drag to smooth it out, then 1 more pass w/ drag after seeding. The other half had %65 clover %35 weeds. The clover was actually looking pretty good considering drought and heat- very small leaves but nice green color. So I just mowed this half, no butyrac for now. Approximately 40 days since last rain w/ more drought forecast. Next trip up will be Oct. 11th to bowhunt and spread 0-20-20 . Next rookie question: if I were to fill my 25 gallon sprayer and hit this 1/2 acre plot say 8 times (200 gallons water) would it help or is it just waste of time? Thanks in advance, ....gotta ask to learn.
     
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  15. Lewi B

    Lewi B Active Member

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    Waste of time.
    Someone will be along and give you the formula for an inch of rain per acre but it is tremendous!!!!
     
  16. Mennoniteman

    Mennoniteman Well-Known Member

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    That's good thinking, there are no dumb questions. Warren Buffett says "the key to success is going to bed a little smarter each day". Driving over a dried up plot with an ATV 8 times to spread 200 gallons of water will do more harm than good with the tire damage done to the drought dormant plants. Now if you have good access to water and let 200 gallons run onto 300 square feet of your best clover area without driving on it that would be 1" of water and it'd make a definite difference to that clover. Irrigation is not a myth, it's a popular farming practice, but you should have a well and a hose to make a real difference while still being cost and time efficient.
     
  17. Petreaux1

    Petreaux1 New Member

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    Thanks guys. I looked it up: 1 inch rain per acre =27,154 gallons which weighs 226,000 pounds!
     
  18. MarkDarvin

    MarkDarvin Well-Known Member

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    I would take a step back and re-read what you just posted.

    Hot, dry, dead, hard -- ground. I'd work around those issues before worrying about weeds or food. You can cure your hot/dry/dead/hard ground by keeping it covered with living and dead plants. Focus on getting some drought and heat resistant stuff growing that will keep the sun off the soil when it's alive and after. Durable live and dead plants will carry you a lot further in dry conditions vs worked or sprayed ground. That residue and living plants will also help get what rain you do get into the soil.

    Once you get that figured out, then go at it with some plants you can manage with a mower (things you can mow-kill) or manage with life cycles (like barley ending it's life cycle on it's own before fall planting). If you can get to that point, droughts, floods, heat, and weeds won't be such a devastating issue.
     
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  19. Petreaux1

    Petreaux1 New Member

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    Location:
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    Post update:Got 552,000 lbs of water per acre! (2 inches rain) last 4 days with more coming next week. pic 5.jpg Left half disced and seeded Durana clover Sep 21. Right half is spring planted clover with weed issues that was mowed 3 times since June. pic4.jpg pic1.jpg Left side clover seems to be coming up after rain. pic3.jpg pic3.jpg On right side, lotta weeds but plenty clover is there,didn't spray Butyrac , did overseed bare spots. Considering 21 days ago it was a rock hard dusty desert I am happy to have something growing. As always any advice is much appreciated.
     

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    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
  20. Petreaux1

    Petreaux1 New Member

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    Location:
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    Hi Guys, my first attempt at perennial Durana clover is doing well, 8 inches tall in most places. It started doing good in December then really took off in January. The grasses that were there Oct.1 were still there Feb. 1, they didn't die over this very mild winter. I hit it with clethodim 8 oz per acre Feb 1 and March 1. It did pretty good on the grasses in spots but didn't kill it all. Question: The clethodim label says "max 16 oz per acre per season per year" which I am already at 16 oz.. Does anyone know can I hit it again without damage to clover?. On the broadleaf side I sprayed Butyrac 1.5 quarts per acre Feb 8 . It did kill a good bit of the broadleafs but now I see the weed in photo below coming in kinda strong. Also a few other broadleafs coming up. I can't seem to find maximum times per year I can hit clover with Butyrac on the label??. Any info on how often and max per year ya'll spray Clethodim and Butyrac would be much appreciated.
     

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