ATF Review... Please don't say it won't affect you....

[DocHolladay]

The BATFE is asking for comments about the bump fire stocks and their legality. Whether you like them or not, you might want to go to the video, click the GOA link in the description, and leave a comment about how you feel. They talk about the proposed change around the 13 minute mark, but I will paraphrase it for you.... The BATFE is looking to propose a new "law" that bans ANY DEVICE THAT CAN INCREASE THE RATE OF FIRE OF ANY SEMI-AUTOMATIC FIREARM(your favorite deer rifle, carry pistol, favorite .22, AR-15, AR-10, AK-47, favorite shotgun, etc). This is a bump stock, binary trigger, 3-gun triggers, etc. The way it is worded, it can include your finger or a belt loop.... If passed, the BATFE will have to set an arbitrary “standard rate of fire”.

What is a standard rate of fire for a semi-automatic firearm? 1 round per second? Perhaps 2 rounds per second? What the ATF is attempting to do is to scrap the actual law governing what defines a semi-auto, which is defined by mechanical operation, and redefining a semi-automatic by how fast it fires. See where this can lead? It is a slippery slope and does more harm than good to all firearm enthusiasts, whether you like a bump stock or not. You have until January 25th to comment. Keep it civil and clean. Any cussing or rude comments and the ATF will kick your comment out without even considering it or reading it all. There will not be a grandfather clause for this.

 

[THE LLC]

LOL. Like they give a crap what we say. That's not how government works.

 

[DocHolladay]

There have been more things thrown out by the peoples comments than you know. Don't complain about it if it happens and you didn't say a word. Just so you know, the NRA has helped spur this on.

 

[DrDirtNap]

So the NRA is OK with this?


Sent from my iPhone using Deer Hunter Forum

 

[DocHolladay]

The NRA made the suggestion for "devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations," through the BATFE(they opposed a Bill through Congress), which led to this "comment time" and I haven't seen anything from them against this as of late. Knowing them, they will let it slide through and then make up some story about how they tried to fight it. They can be hypocritical most of the time.

 

[Mennoniteman]

Sorry Doc, I always value your opinions highly, but on this one, I don't think bump stocks should be legal. I understand your comment about the slippery slope, but I feel something needs to be done about bump stocks. Just my humble opinion. Respectfully, Allen

 

[DocHolladay]

I don't like them either, but if someone wants to buy one, I won't stop them. I don't want anyone telling me that I can't have something that is legal because they don't like it. If they want to ban or Regulate bumpstocks, fine, but don't try to lump other items in with them via shady wording. Bumpstocks have been produced/modified by one company or another since 1996 and not much has been said about them or did most people really care, but let a madman go on a rampage and now everyone cares. It doesn't really matter what the weapon is or can be, someone is going to abuse it at some point. Cars, knives, baseball bats, guns, alcohol, drugs, Tide Pods, etc. 1 bad person using a product makes the other 200,000 good people look bad. Guilty by association. The wording is what is going to hurt everyone if not careful. They will try and word it where it includes items that don't need to be included. They have the propensity to word it where that can say that a 3.5lb trigger is a device that alters the firearm, see where this can go? My AR has a 3.5lb trigger in it and I am looking to get one for my other AR. I want to say that it is hard to make a point without sounding angry or mad about it, so don't think I am mad or angry here...

Laws have to be passed to regulate firearms, not BATFE regulations. Everything in the past that has controlled firearms in some way, were passed by an Act of Congress. The BATFE just makes sure everyone follows them. The National Firearms Act(1934), The Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act(Clinton Assult Weapons Ban), the 1986 Hughes Amendment, The Gun Control Act of 1968, etc... All laws passed by Acts of Congress. The BATFE is overstepping bounds.

Here are a few clips from a Nov 15, 2017 article in the Washington Post-
"Republican lawmakers punted the responsibility to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, which in turn says it cannot regulate bump stocks unless Congress changes the law."

"The law is very clear, and it does not currently allow ATF to regulate such accessories,” Michael R. Bouchard, former ATF assistant director and now president of ATF Association, wrote in the letter..."

This is what was presented in Congress and the BATFE seems to be following suit/copying from Congress. According to Congress.gov, the bill(HR3999) is in a "Summary Progress" at the moment. This is a 1 page Bill/Amendment that was introduced! How many times have you seen Congress introduce a 1 page Bill/Amendment?? 1 PAGE!!

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/3999/text
" To amend title 18, United States Code, to prohibit the manufacture, possession, or transfer of any part or combination of parts that is designed and functions to increase the rate of fire of a semiautomatic rifle but does not convert the semiautomatic rifle into a machinegun, and for other purposes."

 

[Mennoniteman]

Thanks for explaining things, you make some very good points. I would be ok with organized militias having fully automatic weapons by special permit, and regular civilians being limited to semi's with a standard unaltered trigger, similar to the law that limits civilians to .50 caliber and smaller. But my opinion is only worth one vote, it'd be interesting to know how others feel about this.

 

[GonHuntin]

The original intent of the second amendment was so that every citizen could possess arms that would allow them to prevent a tyrannical government from enslaving citizens through unjust laws and actions. At that time, citizens could and did own the same arms as the military.

Fast forward to today and you will find that the government has, in many ways, violated the constitution, including the 2nd amendment. The National Firearms Act of 1934 clearly infringes on the rights of citizens to keep and bear arms, same with the Gun Control Act of 1968, the Hughes Amendment, etc, etc, etc. These infringements should have never been allowed to stand.

This ban, if enacted, is just another infringement on our rights. I personally have no desire to own a bump stock, but I believe we should be able to do so if we chose.......and I certainly don't want the Government telling me I can't.

If you believe that the Government should be able to restrict the types of weapons we can own, then you, by definition, are in favor of gun control and therefore do not fully support the 2nd amendment.

And, before you throw out the ridiculous " then you think citizens should be able to own nuclear weapons" argument......no, I don't believe that weapons of mass destruction would be included in the protection of the 2nd amendment.......however, when the 2nd amendment was written, private citizens did own cannons.

 

[DocHolladay]

 

[GonHuntin]

Bottom line, bad guys will do bad things and you can't stop them by punishing good guys!!!!

 

[Drycreek]

Where to start ? First, I've been a life member of the NRA for too many years to remember, and while they aren't perfect, they are the only organization standing between us and total confiscation. Yeah, I know there are other 2nd amendment orgs, but they wouldn't make a pimple on the NRA's butt.

The bump stock, IMO, was and is an ill-conceived apparatus designed only to separate people from their money. I've never even desired to try one, much less buy one. In retrospect, that was a good decision ! I can see no practical use for one, and I not only own several AR rifles, I have an AR pistol also. My primary pig rifles are ARs in 6.8 SPC, but for the life of me I can't see where a bump stock (or a full auto) would equal more dead pigs, and I like dead pigs.

Having said all that, I am in agreement that a BATFE ruling on this matter would be an end run around congress. FTR, although I don't want a bump stock, I don't care if you do. I think it's a waste and silly, but hell, I think that about sports cars, football, and a host of other things that most men like, so what do I know ?

 

[nchunter1989]

For those that say the feedback doesn't matter, there have been several regulations the ATF took feedback on & while they didn't exactly admit the feedback was why they changed their mind,it was easy to read between the lines. If memory serves I believe the "greentip"M855/SS109 ban was the last reg ATF proposed & was shot down by feedback.We have seen some innovative ideas in the firearm world in the last year or so, I believe not coincidentally,since Trump took office & Sessions got into DOJ. The 14" pump & semi "firearms" come to mind. As well as other guns being classified as pistols & able to use a shoulder brace that essentially is an SBR or "poor mans" version anyway.

As has already been stated, if anyone supports regulation on this, its only a slippery slope. When NRA came out with their statement, I was done. Gun Owners of America now get my support & funds.They seem to be the only "no-compromise" gun rights group out there.Do your research & you will see that the dems have already admitted they don't give a crap about the stocks, they just want any type of gun control.

 

[nchunter1989]

Thanks for explaining things, you make some very good points. I would be ok with organized militias having fully automatic weapons by special permit, and regular civilians being limited to semi's with a standard unaltered trigger, similar to the law that limits civilians to .50 caliber and smaller. But my opinion is only worth one vote, it'd be interesting to know how others feel about this.

What alot of non gunowners -and some gun owners I've found-dont understand is that depending on your state, if you have the cash & can get LEO approval, you can own a full auto firearm. Can you explain what I underlined? "standard unaltered trigger"?

 

[Mennoniteman]

What alot of non gunowners -and some gun owners I've found-dont understand is that depending on your state, if you have the cash & can get LEO approval, you can own a full auto firearm. Can you explain what I underlined? "standard unaltered trigger"?

Merriam-Webster; Definition of semiautomatic. : not fully automatic: such as. a : operated partly automatically and partly by hand. b of a firearm : able to fire repeatedly through an automatic reloading process but requiring release and another pressure of the trigger for each successive shot. a semiautomatic rifle.

 

[catscratch]

As said above, the constitution (through the 2nd Amendment) is based on the principle that the citizens should be armed well enough to prevent tyrannical government. I'm all for gun ownership without restrictions due to this. I'm for freedom as protected by the constitution. Freedom isn't free, it's rather expensive to be honest with you. Certain dangers are associated with a free society and once you try to baby-proof everything we are no longer free.

Gun restrictions and advocates assume some things; they assume my mental state and judgement will be impaired by simply owning a gun, and they assume that I'm guilty of murder before committing the crime. Owning a gun does not make someone inherently dangerous or murderous, but the instant you restrict my ability to own a firearm you are assuming that I am.

People who want to do harm will find a way. Look at other countries for examples of alternate ways to kill masses. I'm so glad that guns are our biggest worry here as I truly think bombs, explosives, gasses, and a suicide mentality are much more frightening that a guy with a bumpstock. Our society is doing very well in this respect compared to most of the world. I think we loose sight of how good we have it sometimes.

 

[Drycreek]

What alot of non gunowners -and some gun owners I've found-dont understand is that depending on your state, if you have the cash & can get LEO approval, you can own a full auto firearm. Can you explain what I underlined? "standard unaltered trigger"?

Standard unaltered triggers in the majority of ARs suck. Bigtime. Every one of mine have either Timney or Chip McCormick triggers. I like to hit what I shoot at, and milspec triggers do not help with accuracy, they hinder it. Although the video tries to make the point that altering the trigger just to make it more "user friendly " could be construed, (under the possible new ruling), to be illegal, I'm not buying that. I seriously doubt that any ATF agent could tell the difference, much less quantify it. It would take a serious 3 gun competitor to be able to take advantage of it IMO.

Still, the subject here seems to be whether bump stocks should be illegal, and whether feedback would sway the BATFE's ruling. My vote is no, and no, but we shall see.

 

[DocHolladay]

My original post was/is to get people to go and comment on the new ruling they are proposing. Their text is about bump stocks and any device that can alter the rate of fire. If it was about bumpstocks only, I wouldn't be so concerned and pushing that ya'll and everywhere else I posted this go and sign it. BUT, it is an open-ended law/regulation/amendment that can be used in almost any way the Govt and BATFE see fit. The video I posted was to prove the point I was trying to make that our "friends" in Washington can do anything they wish once it passes because of the wording.

I very rarely talk politics, it's just something I have never liked doing. The best you'll get out of me is voting and I usually have to do a little research a few days before I go to the voting booth(local, state and federal representatives). I have voted on both sides because I try and vote for the qualified candidate, not the party, even though I lean more towards republican. Two of Tennessee's best Governors(in my lifetime) were Democrats believe it or not. Now we have some Jackleg Republican in there that has gone against almost every promise he has made. I do try to keep up with things that involve my freedoms and them being restricted or outright removed. I get emails from a few sources that help keep me up to date and I do some research after I get the email to see if it's something I need to consider writing my congressmen or someone else over. This is one of those things. I wrote the BATFE a comment, I also wrote my Congressmen. I wrote my Congressmen when HR3999 was introduced back in October 2017. It's hard to keep up with all of it, that is why I don't really do politics, but I will try and fight for my/our rights, especially the first 10. If they fail to listen to me, at least I know that I got mouthy and they knew how I stood on the subject at hand. I have been told by my parents, grandparents, and others of an older generation that, if you don't vote, you shouldn't complain about it. I feel the same way. The whole, my vote wouldn't have made a difference is null and void. Especially if everyone that said that would have voted... or spoke their mind in this case.

I am an NRA member and have been happy with what they have done... mostly. They made a suggestion to have bumpstocks looked at for increased regulation(as in NFA Tax possibly), but they haven't said a thing about the wording of this new regulation that could be inbound. I have thought about asking for my money back on several occasions from them because of how they handled things presently and in the past. They stand there smiling, telling you one thing and the whole time are sliding a knife in between your ribs. Then they turn around and tell that they tried and say "Sorry, maybe next time". I was a member of the GOA and I REALLY like how they do things, but there just isn't enough people standing behind them to fund them like the NRA is. Today is January 22nd. They close the comments January 25th. Please let them know how you feel, whether you think they will listen or not. At least tell them that you don't mind Bumpstocks being regulated, but don't try and word the new regulation so that it is open-ended.


P.S.-Drycreek, I am a Geissele man when it comes to triggers... I love all brands, but I think they make the best.

 

[DocHolladay]

They didn't like the first round and they are trying again..... Whether you like/dislike, own/don't own a "Bump Stock Type Device", you need to voice an opinion. They are trying to classify the bump stocks as a machine gun and if it passes, will turn everyone that owns one(MILLIONS HAVE BEEN SOLD) into a felon with up to 5 years in prison for the first offense(the same as child pornography).Give them an inch, and they will take a mile!!! The youtube video below describes it better than I can...
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/03/29/2018-06292/bump-stock-type-devices#open-comment