Archery, will it ever be the same again?

[Deadeye]

From my perspective in the grassy plains of KS (where deer rut in the wide open all the time), that firearms during this time would decimate the older age class. Combine that with the "meet demand" tag management currently being used and the trophy class deer would dissapear very quickly.

For me and this scenario it isn't so much keeping big bucks for "my season" as much as sound management to keep any big bucks at all. I think every part of the country is different. Rifle hunting in big woods or mountains may have a very different outcome than rifle hunting treeless pasture.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

But would it?
Wouldn't the same approximate number of Hunters that are "first legal buck then go home" type hunters still remain the same?
Could they perhaps score on a Mature Buck by Chance? Of Course they could, but would there be a Significant Change?

Every Year it seemed growing up in Pa with our 2-week Season there would be a First Time Hunter luck into a Big Buck their first time out ever hunting. That does and will continue to happen, but for the most part Meat Hunters are Meat Hunters and they just want their Buck whatever size it is.

 

[catscratch]

But would it?
Wouldn't the same approximate number of Hunters that are "first legal buck then go home" type hunters still remain the same?
Could they perhaps score on a Mature Buck by Chance? Of Course they could, but would there be a Significant Change?

Every Year it seemed growing up in Pa with our 2-week Season there would be a First Time Hunter luck into a Big Buck their first time out ever hunting. That does and will continue to happen, but for the most part Meat Hunters are Meat Hunters and they just want their Buck whatever size it is.

I'm guessing it would matter. KS is a trophy destination. MUCH of the land is leased by out of state hunters or outfitters. Hunters willing to pay big $$$$ to hunt a trophy usually aren't meat hunters...

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[Deadeye]

.

SC is a good example because their “management” is at the far end of the spectrum and very different from northern, midwestern and even most southern states.

Long rifle seasons and extremely liberal bag limits on bucks (and does for that matter) has ensured a low age structure. My brother in law killed a 168” buck there in the 90’s and his brother killed one not much smaller. The potential is there.

I don’t think rifle season during the rut leaves older bucks vulnerable, I think it leaves all bucks vulnerable. If every two year old in the neighborhood is killed then there are no three year olds the following year and no four year olds the next.

Archery season or no season during the rut would obviously increase the chance a buck advances but bag limits are definitely part of the equation. SC is the perfect storm for a low age class deer herd. Almost forgot, add baiting to the list.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I do know that SC has Changed their Regulations from what they once were. My SIL bought a license there two years ago to hunt on property his friend bought there. That was the year things changed.

Prior to that the State was broke down into 4 Zones I believe and in the West Zones you could take I believe 5 deer, but in the East Zones it was Unlimited. That changed to a Limit but a Resident got all the Tags when they got their license and a Non-Resident had to buy theirs and they were limited to 2 Bucks and 5 Doe I think it was and the Residents got 5 Bucks and 10 Does.

My Numbers May be way off as I'm pulling from a 2 year old Memory.

The Buck Tags were also broken down into Any Size Buck and Trophy Sized Buck with 4 points of more on one side.

How that has Changed the Hunting I have no idea. I would think going from All You Want to a limit of 5 would be a step in the right direction, just like Florida did this year.

 

[Deadeye]

I'm guessing it would matter. KS is a trophy destination. MUCH of the land is leased by out of state hunters or outfitters. Hunters willing to pay big $$$$ to hunt a trophy usually aren't meat hunters...

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Good Points.

 

[OkieKubota]

All you have to do is look at what the average buck looks to be from the states that are a free for all with rifles for months of the year to what the states that have a structured shorter rifle season look like. Oklahoma has worked itself from being a state where myself and 11 other hunters were all actually trying to get the same small 6 point buck in late November of 1979 because it was the only buck we knew of in a 3 square mile area to being able to try to take a minimum 4.5 year old buck now...and it is easier to get that 4.5 year old buck than it was that buck way back in 1979 because Oklahoma has used sound game management practices to get us there including short rifle seasons at tale end of the rut in late November. Oklahoma wildlife department now seems to want to expand that season to begin a week earlier and be 1 week longer. This will have a negative impact on what deer are carried over into next year. I am not just a bowhunter (can I even use that word...lol) but I also enjoy hunting with the rifle. I have never felt “cheated” because I am not hunting peak rut with a rifle and many years my only deer are killed with one since I had no luck with bow but I still never lowered my standards because the rut is over...those deer are still there.

Liberal seasons with lots of rifle pressure keep the age structure low on normal sized properties not somehow like islands unto themselves by being cut off by high fence, waterways, swamps or perhaps property between an interstate and a big river. I share my border with 8 full time living here neighbors and 8 other property owners who only come in for deer hunting. A simple week earlier rifle season will cause the age structure in this area to drop considerably...it may not do it on every single parcel of land but it will here...

 

[SwampCat]

All you have to do is look at what the average buck looks to be from the states that are a free for all with rifles for months of the year to what the states that have a structured shorter rifle season look like. Oklahoma has worked itself from being a state where myself and 11 other hunters were all actually trying to get the same small 6 point buck in late November of 1979 because it was the only buck we knew of in a 3 square mile area to being able to try to take a minimum 4.5 year old buck now...and it is easier to get that 4.5 year old buck than it was that buck way back in 1979 because Oklahoma has used sound game management practices to get us there including short rifle seasons at tale end of the rut in late November. Oklahoma wildlife department now seems to want to expand that season to begin a week earlier and be 1 week longer. This will have a negative impact on what deer are carried over into next year. I am not just a bowhunter (can I even use that word...lol) but I also enjoy hunting with the rifle. I have never felt “cheated” because I am not hunting peak rut with a rifle and many years my only deer are killed with one since I had no luck with bow but I still never lowered my standards because the rut is over...those deer are still there.

Liberal seasons with lots of rifle pressure keep the age structure low on normal sized properties not somehow like islands unto themselves by being cut off by high fence, waterways, swamps or perhaps property between an interstate and a big river. I share my border with 8 full time living here neighbors and 8 other property owners who only come in for deer hunting. A simple week earlier rifle season will cause the age structure in this area to drop considerably...it may not do it on every single parcel of land but it will here...

Most states are now trying to manage deer numbers as opposed to manage for quality or increasing quantity. Farmers, car insurance companies, suburbanites, cwd management - all demand lower deer density. It is difficult to lower the density and increase the age structure.

 

[swat1018]

Most states are now trying to manage deer numbers as opposed to manage for quality or increasing quantity. Farmers, car insurance companies, suburbanites, cwd management - all demand lower deer density. It is difficult to lower the density and increase the age structure.

The problem is, most states in that situation don't know when to stop. Indiana had plenty of deer a year ago, now many parts of the state are in sad shape.

 

[weekender21]

All you have to do is look at what the average buck looks to be from the states that are a free for all with rifles for months of the year to what the states that have a structured shorter rifle season look like. Oklahoma has worked itself from being a state where myself and 11 other hunters were all actually trying to get the same small 6 point buck in late November of 1979 because it was the only buck we knew of in a 3 square mile area to being able to try to take a minimum 4.5 year old buck now...and it is easier to get that 4.5 year old buck than it was that buck way back in 1979 because Oklahoma has used sound game management practices to get us there including short rifle seasons at tale end of the rut in late November. Oklahoma wildlife department now seems to want to expand that season to begin a week earlier and be 1 week longer. This will have a negative impact on what deer are carried over into next year. I am not just a bowhunter (can I even use that word...lol) but I also enjoy hunting with the rifle. I have never felt “cheated” because I am not hunting peak rut with a rifle and many years my only deer are killed with one since I had no luck with bow but I still never lowered my standards because the rut is over...those deer are still there.

Liberal seasons with lots of rifle pressure keep the age structure low on normal sized properties not somehow like islands unto themselves by being cut off by high fence, waterways, swamps or perhaps property between an interstate and a big river. I share my border with 8 full time living here neighbors and 8 other property owners who only come in for deer hunting. A simple week earlier rifle season will cause the age structure in this area to drop considerably...it may not do it on every single parcel of land but it will here...

Yeah that's the truth. It's incredible how many spikes and other yearling bucks are killed in the LONG rifle season states.

 

[weekender21]

I do know that SC has Changed their Regulations from what they once were. My SIL bought a license there two years ago to hunt on property his friend bought there. That was the year things changed.

Prior to that the State was broke down into 4 Zones I believe and in the West Zones you could take I believe 5 deer, but in the East Zones it was Unlimited. That changed to a Limit but a Resident got all the Tags when they got their license and a Non-Resident had to buy theirs and they were limited to 2 Bucks and 5 Doe I think it was and the Residents got 5 Bucks and 10 Does.

My Numbers May be way off as I'm pulling from a 2 year old Memory.

The Buck Tags were also broken down into Any Size Buck and Trophy Sized Buck with 4 points of more on one side.

How that has Changed the Hunting I have no idea. I would think going from All You Want to a limit of 5 would be a step in the right direction, just like Florida did this year.

You're not too far off. Game zone one is in the mountains, it's always had the lowest deer density and a more regulated season. The piedmont is somewhere in the middle with a 3 month rifle season and more tags available. I think you can still legally kill 17 deer/year in that part of the state with the newer "strict" regs. You can buy buck tags and additional buck tags that have antler restrictions. The coastal areas have the highest deer density and a 5 month rifle season. At one point I believe the annual bag limit was unlimited. Either way, there were no tags and no check stations. I think tags are a step in the right direction but SC has a LONG way to go...in my opinion.

 

[Mennoniteman]

You're not too far off. Game zone one is in the mountains, it's always had the lowest deer density and a more regulated season. The piedmont is somewhere in the middle with a 3 month rifle season and more tags available. I think you can still legally kill 17 deer/year in that part of the state with the newer "strict" regs. You can buy buck tags and additional buck tags that have antler restrictions. The coastal areas have the highest deer density and a 5 month rifle season. At one point I believe the annual bag limit was unlimited. Either way, there were no tags and no check stations. I think tags are a step in the right direction but SC has a LONG way to go...in my opinion.

4 points on one side antler restriction for everyone except junior hunters might help during those loong rifle seasons?

 

[cutman]

SC has the worst deer season regulations in the country. Please don’t use us as a good example of anything related to deer management. Whatever we do, do the opposite of.

 

[weekender21]

SC has the worst deer season regulations in the country. Please don’t use us as a good example of anything related to deer management. Whatever we do, do the opposite of.

Yep


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Drycreek]

^^^^^^^ And I thought Texas was bad........

 

[Mennoniteman]

SC has the worst deer season regulations in the country. Please don’t use us as a good example of anything related to deer management. Whatever we do, do the opposite of.

I never imagined that I would be saying this, but Pennsylvania seems to be heading in the right direction. If a guy by the name of Gary Ault wants to come to your state to mismanage your deer, lock all of your doors. It took 10 to 15 years, but now we are partially recovering from his failed policies.

 

[cutman]

I never imagined that I would be saying this, but Pennsylvania seems to be heading in the right direction. If a guy by the name of Gary Ault wants to come to your state to mismanage your deer, lock all of your doors. It took 10 to 15 years, but now we are partially recovering from his failed policies.

The problem with SC is the regulations are made by the state legislature (POLITICIANS) rather than biologists. It’s maddening. We’ve made progress in the last couple of years, but we have a long way to go.

 

[SwampCat]

4 points on one side antler restriction for everyone except junior hunters might help during those loong rifle seasons?

we have a 3 pt restriction - and it is the only thing standing between a decent chance at a 3.5 yr old buck and hunting for spikes.

 

[OkieKubota]

we have a 3 pt restriction - and it is the only thing standing between a decent chance at a 3.5 yr old buck and hunting for spikes.

I know you mentioned earlier that a shorter rifle season would mean deer overpopulation but I guess the longer rifle season keeps everything in order except takes out your mature deer. I would vote for a few more deer and less rifle season...

 

[SwampCat]

I know you mentioned earlier that a shorter rifle season would mean deer overpopulation but I guess the longer rifle season keeps everything in order except takes out your mature deer. I would vote for a few more deer and less rifle season...

Most deer hunters would, too. Auto insurance, suburbanites, farmers, timber companies, and cwd all demand lower densities.

 

[DRandall90]

Most deer hunters would, too. Auto insurance, suburbanites, farmers, timber companies, and cwd all demand lower densities.

Luckily for managers, you can support high deer densities on relatively small tracts of land, provided you supply the deer with food, water and cover. Deer density in some areas may be relatively low (some areas in the arrowhead region of MN only support 3 deer/square mile) but good managed land for deer can hold populations much larger.

Granted there is a tradeoff there. As we settled that land, we pushed the caribou out and that allowed whitetails to move in. So pick your poison I suppose.

 

[Mennoniteman]

Luckily for managers, you can support high deer densities on relatively small tracts of land, provided you supply the deer with food, water and cover. Deer density in some areas may be relatively low (some areas in the arrowhead region of MN only support 3 deer/square mile) but good managed land for deer can hold populations much larger.

Granted there is a tradeoff there. As we settled that land, we pushed the caribou out and that allowed whitetails to move in. So pick your poison I suppose.

You touched on a good point that is often overlooked, whitetailed deer have a natural lifestyle such that their core area becomes extremely compact when they have habitat with all the things available that they need in that compact area, which makes them one of the most manageable species in North America, and like you noted, a small property can be managed to have a lot of deer, and if the neighboring properties have poor habitat they might have very few deer, and the few they do have they can thank their neighbor for. Besides small game there are no species of wildlife that I can think of that can be managed so successfully on small tracts without the animals wandering off to other places some of the time.